.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 07/07/2012 - 07:30

Comments

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 18:40

To whom is this rant directed, patti? Because this has been my argument all along when someone on your side of the aisle very smugly points to the alleged 95% failure rate of AA. No one knows whether that 95% of AA drop-outs failed to achieve sobriety. All that is supposedly known about it is that they left AA for some reason. Whatever point you're trying to make with this "statistic" is blowing up in your face. And if you don't direct your remark to the poster whom you wish to ream with a hot poker, the point will never get across. Try again.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 18:41

that most people vote with their feet and reject AA.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 18:53

Is that the only point? Because this so-called statistic is used over and over and over on this forum to illustrate that no one benefits from AA in any way. That cannot be determined with absolute certainty, and so it becomes a fairy tale without an ending.

That is the point, Gunthar200.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 18:56

how AA is touted as the most successful recovery method in the world.
That cannot be determined with absolute certainty, and so it becomes a fairy tale without an ending.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 19:56

Whaddya got to prove them wrong? Anything in the way of stats or empirical evidence? Or is this a dropping from your opinion box?

There are no exit polls outside AA meetings. You don't know why people leave AA. Some reject it outright; others don't want to have to attend meetings; others don't like the spiritual overtones; others get pissed off because they can't smoke in the buildings. But who know what they might be taking away from AA that directly affects their sobriety in a positive way? My money is on the belief that not all 95% of people who "reject" AA do so because they find the program faulty.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 20:01

Is this just your opinion?

It's pretty obvious that people who don't stick around AA have found something wrong with AA.
Like it or not, AA is headed to the trash heap of history.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 20:12

From the looks of it in your green-gill photo, it won't be in your lifetime.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

DeConstructor's picture

DeConstructor

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 20:02

conveniently forgot why most people leave AA?

It is because they have fulfilled their court obligations. They are no longer coerced to be there to listen to the incoherent ramblings and drunkalogues and move on with their life.
The gurus do not get it. nobody gives a shit about the crap they are selling

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 20:12

Great. Now they can go drive drunk a little more. Or a lot. That's what we need.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

disclosure

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:02

Many of the tenants and practices of AA are dangerous and damage people. I participate in this discussion because it helps me deprogram and recover from recovery. When I arrived at another anti AA site two years ago I realized in communicating with others that I was brainwashed. The first step for me was to participate in the conversation so my beliefs could be challenged. At the time I didn't want to drink because I believed doing so under the AA belief system of jails, institutions, and death, could be dangerous. I also knew that to drink with 15 years abstinence could mean that I would want to catch up and drink dangerously. What I did instead was to make a conscious effort to develop a healthy drinking attitude. How do normal drinkers drink? Most of them stop before intoxicated. I went to the HAMS harm reduction site and did their program. My drinking plan at this time is abstinence as a result of a cost benefit analysis I did. This can change; I am willing to drink, just not dangerously. I am 8 months into a tobacco harm reduction experiment at this time. With tobacco being one of the most insidious drugs it is where I started. I smoke one cigar a month with 30 abstinence days between. Under the AA belief system substituting alcohol I would have smoked one cigar, succumbed to phenomenon of craving, and gone out to become a daily cigarette smoker.
Anyway, if you are sincere I hope this helps. The damage done me by AA took decades to create, I will need more time here in the discussion to repair it. I wish this and other anti AA sites were available to me when I first joined, I could have had a different outcome and perhaps been a better friend to those I knew in AA who committed suicide, instead of telling them to do the steps. I do not hate AA; I hate the sickness that they call a cure.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:09

I thank you for your input. And I am here looking for alternatives. My biggest chagrin here is mostly with the fact that many are being deterred from potential help. It can and does work. It's not easy, therefore many don't make it. Like me : / But it has offered some relief and sobriety in ways-I-could-never-do-on-my-own. Your input helps, I will look into it. If I find better ways, I will help pass it on but not at the cost of cutting down a program that can and does help many that don't know or haven't experienced anything else. It is often a life saver. There shouldn't be this amount of prejudicial hate.

disclosure

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:25

HAMS slogan is "Better is Better".
This means that your only options are limitless options.
It means that if you like AA and it helps you, it's OK to use it along with HR.
I no longer have a deadly progressive disease or am different from my fellows, I do not suffer from an allergy to alcohol or spiritual malady.
Just for today I will have a healthy belief system and not marginalize myself.
My irresponsible drinking was my fault; just for today I will not blame my bad behavior on a disease.
"I am responsible. When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the hand of OP always to be there. And for that: I am responsible."

First-Things-First (not verified)

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:34

Direction or links then, please provide.

viva_ron_paul@ymail.com

Thanks.

disclosure

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:50

There are worksheets on the site for an individual to figure out their own plan. There is a chat room open every night at 6PM PST to talk to others.
Here are the key elements (see 17 elements on website);
CBA (Cost Benefit Analysis)
Drinking Goal
Risk Ranking
Tools to deal with cravings and abstinence days
Drinking Plan
Alcohol Free Days (ABS or abstinence days)
Rational thinking or RET
Damage control, etc.

http://hamsnetwork.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 20:44

It was interesting to talk with the others on the board about how I did some of these same things in AA, ony to be told, "oh no, you didn't!" This is why I realy feel that most of these programs are just twists on AA. Then you discover that the people that created them are former AAs that jus ttook what they liked and left the rest.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 21:29

SMART was developed by Dr. Tom Horvath who was not an alcoholic or an AA member. He is a doctor who had patients that weren't helped by AA and didn't want to go to AA. He decided that there was a need for something else. The program is an amalgamation of many evidence base modalities, each element proven to work, and they all work better than AA. But don't let that stop you from spreading lies, lies, lies.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 21:39

Cause, I didn't know that was how SMART started, interesting. Imagine a program based on what actually works and not magic tricks! I don't know why I assumed he was an alcoholic himself, I guess I'm used to this idea that you can't be involved in recovery unless you've needed it yourself. I wonder if anyone else started a program based on doing the complete opposite of what they say in AA, or is that just me? LOL

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 22:00

PIE, in many ways SMART does the complete opposite of what AA does. For instance it's been found that labeling is a hindrance to recovery and those who reject the labels actually do better than those who accept them, so SMART avoids labeling. As you know that's in complete defiance of AA's so-called "wisdom." They've also found that the focus on "spirituality" is ineffective and at certain intervals caused an increase in drinking, so they avoid that as well. I could go on and on about the elements of AA that have been found to be a hindrance to recovery, such as the disease model, but I'm tired now.

But yes, Horvath is a professional with excellent credentials, and the program has borrowed from some really famous award-winning psychologists who specialize in addictions, such as Albert Ellis, William Miller and DiClemente and Stanton Peele is on their board along with many others.

Now, if we can just keep the steppers out so they don't ruin it, but we all know how much they love to ruin things...

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 22:07

I'll have to get back into that material because I remember reading where the addiction was identified as part of breaking down denial. That is the same time, hough, that Jim sent me his information on SOS.

I personally find nothing wrong with labeling myself as an alcoholic because I am one. I don't see it as a negative at all. It tends to make some sense. If you aren't an addict, acoholic, gambler, sex addict, then why are you there?

As for Steppers, Tom himself doesn't discourage it at all.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 22:13

Well, I'm glad that others have caught on to the fact that labeling is really, really detrimental to people getting well. I need to just read more about it, because it does sound much more positive and empowering than 12 step. I know it's not hard to believe, but I didn't hear a single word about SMART when I was trying to get well. The only other programs I heard of were Celebrate Recovery (which is apparently even MORE religious) and Waismann. I really like Miller's work, also. No need to go on about the rest of what is ineffective in AA to me, I think I've seen most of it. Or perhaps that is just my "disease" that can talk to me and do push-ups and the like.

I always wondered what happens when you start to rely entirely on "spirituality" for your sobriety....what happens when your faith begins to lag? If you have a lapse of it?

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 22:28

I thought that Tom worked with others on this and one guy got mad and trotted off to start RR.

I lost it on SMART when I read you are supposed to talk to your addiction as if it is a person. Give it a name and talk to it with "powerful" words such as "SCAT! YOU are not stronger than ME!" I knew a guy that used to call his disease Slick and say things like this in meetings. I finally knew where it came from when I read about SMART. It's been a while since I readthe material and I didn't get allt he way through it. I'll pull it out next week.

Having said this, I am for whatever it takes to get a person sober and that s(he) feels comfortable enough with to keep doing! I don't have to go to meetings for the rest of my life and that wasn't ever impressed upon me, but what was is that probably will never be able to drink safely again and to reach a point where I am not even interested in trying it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 22:35

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIJUG_lPlCcAqiL7w8QF;_...

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 22:42

LOL Cause

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 21:58

Proven to work with 100% assurances which is why we have no stats to show you! We don't need them! It's PROVEN to work.

Okay, I will amend my statement to say that MOST other programs were started by disgruntled former AAs. And of course SMART is so helpful because everyone suggesting it is a facilitator so there are plenty of these meetings around! 20 years after its creation, and there are ony 300 meetings stateside.

Actually, Cause, since I did most of those exercises in AA, I certainly found use for them. That is why I felt it is so similar whereas you think it is completely different. My sponsor took what he thought was helpful from other areas and had no fixed ideas on materials. It is great not ot have prejudice and I practice that with those I sponsored.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 18:31

Why do you think its up to you to decide or decree that there shouldn't be this amount of hate. You do understand what prejudice means? It is a negative opinion or feeling prior to knowledge. We have experienced AA & therefore any feelings we have are based upon our experiences & knowledge & therefore are not prejudiced. "shouldn't" why do you think you should be telling any one how they should or
"shouldn't" feel about anything @ all? Who do you think you are to be telling any one how to feel about anything? It's not up to you how any one should feel about anything @ all. You do not have the right or authority to tell any one how they should or shouldn't feel about any thing.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 18:50

I have experienced AA as well, patti, and therefore any feelings that I have are based upon my own experiences and knowledge and therefore are not prejudiced. Yet you would have anyone and everyone believe the opposite. Please explain.

Why do you always balk when someone makes a comment to you? You start up with that "you can't fuckin push me around!" shit when no one was trying to push you around in the first place.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 20:08

from potential harm.
The 12 steps are a self-destructive mind trap that cause people to fear and doubt their own abilities. AA teaches you that you cannot trust your own thinking and must rely on an invisible man in the sky who watches your every move.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 14:17

That's not AA, dude, that's faith in general.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 14:19

Faith is believing in something when there is no evidence to support the claim that it exists.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 14:28

Are you suggesting that faith has no power?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 14:39

I am suggesting that faith has no power.
Are you suggesting that faith healing does have power?
Your previous posts make apparent that you believe AA to be a faith healing organization.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 15:33

.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 15:33

I am proposing that the human mind can be highly suggestible.

I believe AA has a faith component, but I do not believe everyone who comes through the doors of AA and successfully achieves lasting sobriety utilizes that faith component in applying the steps. Please read: Therefore, I do not believe AA is exclusively a faith healing organization. For those who believe in God/god, the 12 steps likely makes more sense; however, one need not believe in God/god at all to achieve sobriety through the 12 steps. I believe it's possible to glean something positive from AA without turning into a Baptist, a Catholic, a Lutheran or a subscriber to any other organized religion. I will distill this to the possibility that one can even have faith in one's better self and enjoy success in AA. By simply investing in his need and his desire for a more promising life, a man can design a personal faith that inspires him to take corrective action. The 12 steps are guides. They are not commands or demands or even absolutes. The point is not to follow the steps to the letter and sacrifice the soul in the process. The point is to achieve and maintain lasting sobriety. I have tremedous difficulty believing that so many people were so weak when they entered AA that they could not tap into any atom of self. If you read the stories of how all these anti-AA posters here came to attend AA, you will find most were without any sense of self when they went in - otherwise, upon discovering their distaste for AA they would have promptly left, whether it be meetings or rehab or a halfway house. Yet they would have you believe they did not have that option. With some measure of self, that option is always there in some form. So you see, most people are highly suggestible. There is power in suggestion. We all have variable defenses against being inhabited by an unfamiliar idea.

If you say faith has no power, to me that means faith has no power in your mind. If others believe faith has power, it does. Your reality does not have permission to rule on the parameters of another person's reality. It does not harm you if someone else believes faith heals. If it offends you, move on.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 15:47

becklet said>>"I am proposing that the human mind can be highly suggestible. So you see, most people are highly suggestible. There is power in suggestion.

Ah ha. The human mind is highly "suggestible". Interesting admission on your part becket, seeing how AA is on the borderline of being a cult. Millions brainwashed into believing an ocean can keep them sober. LOL

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 15:58

How about life as a higher power? How about your wife as a higher power? How about whatever is your motivation to get and stay sober as your higher power?

I have a higher power, but it is the same God I always loved and that loved me. My higher power was wanting a different life for myself so I could live it the way it was intended for me to live. No one had to say, "okay, Clara, you need to have some sort of higher power and it can be anything but you." I already had a God. I also wanted what my father had always wanted for me, which was to know joy. I didn't know that when I was drinking or caught up in the lifestyle. But I found it through sobriety. It's a good thing.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 16:23

There is great power in suggestion, lfop. That doesn't mean everyone takes a suggestion to heart. I believe most people who go to AA want to stop drinking. This does not include the coercees, but the people who are genuinely interested in achieving sobriety. If suggestions are made to them toward this end, they are free to accept them or reject them. According to you, most people reject them, which would indicate that they are not susceptible to the suggestions they encountered in AA. But they could be susceptible to other suggestions, such as drinking is better than quitting, or I can do this without anyone's help, or I can control my drinking. Some succeed, some do not. Some die sober, some die dry, some die drunk, some die with multiple substances in their bloodstreams. If you have a problem with any of that, please be specific. As Booker T. says, "Time Is Tight."

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

DeConstructor's picture

DeConstructor

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:13

the fact that the majority of newcomers are forced and coerced to participate and convert to the AA faith

In addition to court orders, many are forced by employers, social services determining child custody, and we now have credible evidence of organ transplant teams threatening the withholding of human organs for failing to empbrace this religion. This is not a simple case of reformed drunks humbly lending a helping hand.

Of course in this failed process, somewhat due to the unearned admiration and undeserved credibility that AA outrageously claimed, society has a skewed perception that the AA faith is a helpful and benevolent organization.

In reality, it is an organization that COWERS behind its stated traditons, when it should be observing them. In reality the 'suggestion' of confidentiality has morphed into a systematic networking opportunity for sexual and violent predators that enjoy a cloak of anonymity. The recent home invasion/torture/rape/murder/arson of a Connectitcut physicians familiy was the handiwork of an AA sponsor/sponsee tag team. We have a huge data base of the murders, swindles, assaults, rapes, and child molestations in AA, archived at the old stinkin thinkin site.

This organization needs checks and balances to the outrageous claims they make, because people are dying because of it. That is why we do what we do.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:42

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:00

May supposedly be a desire to stop drinking. However, most people end up in there as a result of being sentenced by a judge. If the courts didn't send people there, it would have died off years ago.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:33

I disagree. If the courts didn't send people to AA, what one would find within the meetings is people who want to be there, who are willing to give the program a go. Those who find it too rigorous or invasive or seemingly contradictory are free to leave at any time. It would improve meetings 200% if coercees just got dumped in jail where they belong.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:42

Then tell the AA Interchuch to quit advertizing in jails and prisons in "correction committees" and the problem is solved.

"The Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and Narcotics Anonymous (NA) "Corrections Committee" Prospect Hunting Trips" http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/675

"How to set up Alcoholics Anonymous Prospect Hunting Trips to Jails and Prisons, direct from the Interchurch Center the CORRECTIONS KIT" http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1598

"Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and the Community Control Master Plan" http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1627

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 14:18

JR Harris, such a good little soldier.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 14:22

Alcoholics Anonymous PROMOTION, not attraction at New Dorp High School Area 49 (SENY) Saturday July 14, 2012 Prospect Hunt - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1881

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:43

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 14:26

Mandated NA Member Arrested In Sunrise Park Playground in Holly Hill Florida

A mandated Daytona Beach Narcotics Anonymous member was arrested in Sunrise Park on June 11th 2012 in the children’s playground while he and his friend were drinking one beer after another, sitting on the bench in the playground shown in the picture below. The Next Step NA meeting that was being held by Don had just finished when this member and a friend decided to go buy beer across the street and bring it back in the playground to drink it, while a number of small children were playing.

After a citizen, concerned for the children called the Holly Hill PD, they arrived and arrested Billy Monteiro in the Sunrise Park playground, and took him out in handcuffs. The mandated NA member had outstanding warrants for his arrests for retail theft at Walmart, and frauduant use of a women’s credit card taken from her stolen purse. He had outstanding warrants for months, yet Billy Monteiro felt very comfortable drinking beer in Sunrise Park’s playground in Holly Hill with his friend! What is it about Holly Hill that so many criminals feel safe to commit crimes in our parks?

Read more: http://nadaytona.org/2012/07/08/mandated-na-member-arrested-in-sunrise-p...

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:12

FTF said: “I've been in an out of the program for years without experiencing any of the horrors many of you balk about.”

FTF said: “(yes, there are bad meetings and the old-timers know to avoid them).”

Your two statements above seem to contradict each other. Please explain. Thanks.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:43

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:49

People in need have to make informed decisions.

That is what the OPs are all about. Exposing AA/12 steps for what it is, and what it is not.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

flannigan

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:14

I guess we are all challenged in one way or another. Listen, I have a very simple program for you to work and I guarantee 100% success. JUST DON'T DRINK NO MATTER WHAT. It works if you work it.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:35

Simple program.

Cunning, Baffling, Powerful? Bill W perhaps, but not alcohol!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

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