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Tue, 07/10/2012 - 16:26
You still did not answer. Am I being unclear? Once again, I do not doubt that a belief in the ocean as a higher power can have a profound impact on some people, perhaps helping them overcome addiction. But that is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about applying the 12 Steps as outlined in AA literature to a person who uses the ocean for an HP. My contention is that if one uses the ocean for an AA higher power, the Steps can't work in the way the Big Book outlines, regardless of whether the person's life improves. So while using the ocean as an HP might give the person success in AA, such success will not be because the Step worked in the way described in the Big Book.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Tue, 07/10/2012 - 16:49
Which success is more authentic in this case:
Adhering strictly to the 12 steps as outlined in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, or
If I believed in strict adherence to book learnin I'd be an academic, not an artist.
You seem to want an answer based on an objective interpretation of the situation. I don't put much stock in an Objective Truth, as you know. I don't know how to answer your question because I don't look at my life that way. "Step Eleven 'Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.'" Why can a man not improve his conscious contact with his higher power if it is the power of the ocean, obviously more forceful than he? There is no reason he cannot. If his higher power, the ocean, inspired him to seek a new and improved self, why can he not use his understanding of that power to continually re-create himself in a better form? In humility he finds the power of the ocean compelling enough to stay close to, to humble himself before this power and meditate upon ways to improve himself, to determine what those ways should be and how to go about the task of designing a better human being.
Look, you're asking a lapsed Catholic to answer these very broad questions regarding faith and humility and sobriety. I'm doing the best I can, but it could be that nothing I say will satisfy you in this regard. My belief is that for every 1,000,000,000 people there are 1,000,000,000 Gods/gods/no gods. We each have our own ideas of life and afterlife (or not). Bill Wilson was writing also as a believer with some connection to Catholicism and also the spiritualism of the day. It's difficult to read how intolerant people here are with regard to beliefs, particularly when there's so much whining and bitching about the choice to leave AA and all of its alleged "beliefs". My view has already been described as "transcendental bullshit", yet I don't see any counter explanation for any of it.
Sorry if this doesn't help you. Enjoy your meetings, but when Step 11 comes up, why not put it to the group and see what comes up? I'm sure someone in your AA meetings is way smarter and more transcendental than I am.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Wed, 07/11/2012 - 08:39
Does it especially matter what a person believes? Isn't it more important to focus on what you yourself believe has helped you? I know many people in all areas of life that have had experiences that cannot be explained by science. Try telling an atheist that your dead mother's precense was felt in your room, and you'll get the talk about how there is nothing after this life but dirt and worms. The person that had the loving and calming experience will walk away feeling sorry for the person that feels all that is left for later is dirt and worms. I asked someone one time what he thought Madlyn O'Hair's last views were during the last two weeks of her life, which were so horrible that not even that odious woman deserved it, IMO. I got no reasoning, just as "shame on you!" Well, why? Why couldn't he answer the question?
I try to understand when people say they've used their mind, but then the question always pops up about what was different when you finally used your mind this way instead of using it much earlier and missing out of a few excrutiating experiences. I had a friend that believed she used her mind to cure her breast cancer. Never mind that she also had radiation and other therapies and then died of lymphoma a few years after that. But she truly believed it. I never discouraged it because it didn't matter.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 13:04
It's another cracking Zep track.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:29
Ink said ;When my treatment counselor asked me what religion I am, I failed to see what that has to do with my physiology.
JJ says; When my 12 step intern counselor asked me what my HP was I told her I dont have one, I dont believe in HP and Im an atheist. She looked at me and asked 'then why would I want to go on living'. I swear to you she said that. I told her that I live my life even fuller because of it. i try to enjoy my life NOW as much as I possibly can because i dont believe I will have one after i die. She looked like she felt sorry for me. lol Then she wrote down in my recovery plan that I need to find a HP. Unbelievable.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:42
Jr Harris; Of course you could also use the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous with their pagan rituals that are directly against the Ten Commandments.
JJ; How so? And how do you know that the person or people that wrote the ten commandments were not murderers and rapists and adulterers? Please tell us, Im dying ti hear it.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:47
You tell me....... oh, and stay out of McDonalds in El Paso, Texas, I hear a lot of AA members frequent them.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 14:15
"It's your religion not mine..........
You tell me....... oh, and stay out of McDonalds in El Paso, Texas, I hear a lot of AA members frequent them."
If you don't know the answer to jonnijoy's questions then you have no authority to be using this shit as an argument. You have no comprehension or it and no basis for it.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 17:14
Good Lord. I just wonder if the people on the blog are so poor that they are relegated to the dollar menu at McDonalds. It's all they ever talk about!
First-Things-First (not verified)
Wed, 07/11/2012 - 00:00
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:51
Discloser says I have met those who Use a door knob as a higher power.
JJ I dont believe you sorry.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 15:28
Contempt prior to investigation?
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 04:19
Safety in numbers. AA's membership is declining and Scientology is getting a very bad press at the moment. The Methodist Church in Britain's numbers have declined (not that there is anything wrong with Methodists) and they are remerging with the mainstream Church of England. AA and the Scientologists seem to have a great deal in common. Perhaps AA oldtimers could get some of reduction in fees if they have already done a lot of 'auditing', or 'step 4'.
This could be a win-win situation for both cults/religions? If this does go ahead then I would appreciate some credit for this very helpful suggestion.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:23
The marriage of AA and scientology as proposed on the OP forum 7-8-12.
Example; I got a free coffee last night at the Alcoholicscientologanonymous meeting when I met Karla.
If I would have stayed home and watched slip-o-vision I could have missed it.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 04:57
Discloser; Contempt prior to investigation?
JJ; !5 years of AA and over 1000 mtgs in 5 states. Whatyagot?
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 07:45
13 of those years were 3 to 5 meetings a week.
I've been to conventions.
I never thought about it but have been to meetings in Hawaii, Catalina, LosAngeles, New York, Nevada, Arizona, Oregon, Washington State, New Jersey, Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico.
I sponsored a few people; some really did well, some died.
I got offered sex in AA (I had what they wanted, money and skills)
But I am going to drink at some point for sure. I really think the "Whatyagot" hierarchy of AA tenure and experience is one of the more dangerous points.
AA can be a sort of abstinence time accumulation contest.
Time can be used to marginalize others.
Time can be used to attract sponsee and control them.
Time lost to a drink can promote overconsumption.
JJ- I do not hate AA, some of the neatest people I have ever met are in AA. If that is you in the picture I am sure you are one of those friends. What I hate are the practices that in my opinion can kill, cause mental damage, or cause a deep feeling of betrayal.
I remember when I was betrayed by my sponsees and sponsor, I left AA and really wanted to drink. I knew that to drink while angry or under the influence of the AA belief system was dangerous so I didn’t. I was so pissed that I just didn’t want to give those AA's the satisfaction of seeing me go down. What I did instead was to work the harm reduction program. I used their elements and created a plan of abstinence that worked for me.
Right now I am abstinent and sober. Abstinence is the complete lack of consumption while sober is a state of mind. Next time someone calls you a dry drunk what they are saying is that you are not of a sober state of mind even though you are abstinent. Most people in AA are not sober in my opinion; their state of mind is not showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudice.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 08:19
This whole post is a joke. You say no program will work if you don't put the proper amount of work into it, then you contradict yourself by saying "you don't have to do the steps, get a sponsor, the only requirement is the desire to stop drinking". BULLSHIT. Go to any AA meeting, and if you're just there to hear what other's have to say, it's not long before some old timer tells you to work the steps, what's your higher power, and gets all up in your business.
I have sadly had to go back to AA, not by choice, and believe me, as soon as I can get out, I will. It's not been long and I've already had members telling me to 'work the steps (I won't)'. The last meeting I was at was a discussion meeting and the guy who was leading the meeting singled people out to speak instead of having people CHOOSE to speak or not. So don't go around saying there's no coercion, or victimization, or bullying, etc that goes on in AA. I've been stalked, 13 stepped, it's just NOT a healthy place for ME. I will go and sit on my butt and listen to what people say, I WON'T divulge and personal information, I won't 'work the steps', and neither will I get a sponsor or pretend to have some 'higher power' so that the old timers won't preach at me.
Wed, 07/11/2012 - 00:01
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 08:35
"At the heart of this thing is the intent of a spiritual experience (not religious)"
Basically, this makes your entire post, and anything you say after, irrelevant. NOOOOO AA isn't religious, not at all !!! Except, it totally is. I scribbled out 'God' in the big book, and replaced it with 'Steven Tyler', and it sound ridiculous...but at least he's a real human being we know for a fact actually exists...
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 09:26
I think Steven Tyler is a great higher power, after all society holds no person in higher regard than the celebrity who imitates life on film or plays rock music.
Please be my friend mr. celebrity man, I want you in my name drop, I want to be seen with you at starbucks. I want to be wanted but am afraid to try, your coat tails can hold the world.
She's not your girlfriend daddy, it's just your turn.
Worship on daddy, worship on...
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 09:28
I love Steven, but I sure wish he would lay off the surgery!
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:25
A song by Disclosure;
Oh Steven, you are my higher power,
Oh Steven, please be my friend,
Oh Steven, please stop the surgery,
Oh Steven, I really care.
Do me one time oh Steven, make granny dirty,
Soil my existence, soil my soul,
I'll look for you at meetings,
Quick, daddy isn't looking,
Only you can fill my hole.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:00
Gosh, why are the Anti AAs always so crude? I have always noticed that about them.
But, I know plenty of people that would do Steven in a heartbeat. I am not one of them, though. I like his music, but have never found him to be attractive. Dirty looking in that heroin chic sort of way.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:04
I'm crude but you know plenty of people who would "do Steven", probably mostly pro AA's.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:11
No, these were people from high school. I just find him to be rather unclean looking.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 12:41
I actually don't buy into the whole concept of the higher power, my whole point was that how ridiculous does it sound when you replace the word 'god' with 'insert random name/object'. But when it's God, it doesn't sound as ridiculous? Steven Tyler isn't going to do shit for me. He's not going to grant me serenity, or get rid of my character defects or keep me sober. In fact, if I told people that's what would keep them sober, to work the steps and pray to Steven Tyler, they'd think I've done some long term damage to myself.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 12:09
"I will go and sit on my butt and listen to what people say, I WON'T divulge and personal information, I won't 'work the steps', and neither will I get a sponsor or pretend to have some 'higher power' so that the old timers won't preach at me."
I won't I won't I won't. A plan for success.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 12:50
Because I'm going to AA AGAINST my will. And I'm leaving as soon as I can get out. I'm not there to to work the steps, because I'm an Atheist, don't tell me my higher power can be 'anything I want it to be', horse shit, at the end of the day, AA wants it to be god, no matter what, it won't be good enough unless it's god. I'm not telling people in that room a DAMN thing about my private life, because they don't like to mind their own business, and I'm not getting a sponsor. I'm there to listen to what people have to say, that's it, that's what I decided going in. Deal with it. I'm not telling you how to 'work the program'.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 13:09
And why are you going against your will, byeg00d?
I have nothing to "deal with". It's your problem, not mine. I'm just curious about your situation. Share or don't. It's all the same.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 17:50
I'll just say it's 'terms and conditions'. Not getting into the details. I didn't walk back through the doors of AA because I wanted to join the program and work the steps, I already was coerced through treatment, and I'm not letting what happened last time happen again. So I'm just taking it for what it is...as in, I'm just going to hear what people say. That is all.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:17
Read it again, I made a couple of subtle changes, now it's crude.
PS, The guy is a HIGHER POWER, he has less poo on him than an AA coffee pot.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:56
LOL, I never knew he was even in AA. Didn't he relapse and bust his face? With as much as he's spent on his face, he wouldn't deliberately wipe out in a shower.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:54
Never thought I would say this but this blog by FTF makes me miss soberman. Lord, what fools these mortals be.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:11
Soberman had fun things to say.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:28
When you point a finger at me you have four pointing back at yourself.
Acceptance is the answer to all your problems.
There but for the grace of God go you.
Whenever something bothers you, there is something wrong with you.
Life on life's terms.
Judging by your conduct I do not believe that you are in AA.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:32
Or, she IS in AA and is living proof that the program is nothing but useless hogwash full of condescending hypocrites. It's one or the other.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:48
Who is pointing a finger at you at you, Disc? You agree that it is crude and you like that! Fine, some people get into the locker room side of life. I like Steven Tyler but wouldn't do him because he looks like he has a needle hanging out of his arm and I don't find the look appealing.
I accept that you are crude. What's better... is that you do, too! I am having as much fun as you are and then suddenly you have humor failure. What's with that?
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:52
Why is everyone on about Steven Tyler? He's one of the biggest steppers there is.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 14:59
(TO BE READ WITH EXTREME SARCASM & Vial Spewing HATE from defective character acquired in AA)
OH MY GOD, someone broke his anonymity. Now if he slips the program will l00k bad. What about the traditions? What about the attraction?
This blog is killing people.
I'm off to work instead of a meeting.$$$
See you later , master-hater.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 13:07
Because of my original comment about replacing the word 'God' in the twelve steps with 'Steven Tyler' and how ridiculous it sounds.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:37
Actually it's when you point a finger at someone you have three fingers pointing back at yourself. It is an old Oxford Group saying which was adopted by AA.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 12:47
Manny, Moe and Jack? Moe, Larry and Shemp? Or do you prefer Curly?
I am pro-choice! :)
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 13:08
I didn't come here to be insulted. (Where do you usually go?)
Wed, 07/11/2012 - 00:02
Wed, 07/11/2012 - 01:47
Sun, 07/22/2012 - 07:36
Most commented blog 68 days and counting.