.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 07/07/2012 - 07:30

Comments

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 15:23

Perhaps I misread, but you seemed to be saying that groups had been shut down for 13 steppin. My bad.

Do you see 13 steppin as a major problem in the rooms, mediocre or a minor problem? At least for the meetings that you attended, yourself being in and out of the rooms so much like you have said.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:54

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 15:39

So you have no "idea" how big, or small the problem is?(previously asked but not answered) How many years in AA do you have?

And you are right, taking advantage of the newly sober is in the same ballpark as taking advantage of a drunk.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:54

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 15:51

Why did you see the need to introduce orgies into your response? I really don't care what groups of men do. : )

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 15:57

The "suggestion" from the AA Interchurch Center is yoiu should never have an opposite sex sponsor. But then you have Clancy I of the Pacific Group in California who spawned his Sponcee Mike Q and Midtown where 13th Stepping was very prevalent and well documented.

Of course Clara has an opposite sex sponsor and is good friends with Clancy (or so she claims, she has taken down the picture of her with him taken during a prospect hunting trip.).

Stories of the Midtown Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, Washington DC
http://orange-papers.org/orange-Midtown_stories.html

The Pacific Group of Clancy I.
http://orange-papers.org/orange-clancy_i.html

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:55

disclosure

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:09

I knew a group of guys in Los Angeles AA who were like a 13th step club. They shared their experience, strength, and hope with each other on how to achieve 13th step success! I told them it was wrong, they called me names, and said; "you would do it too if you could" and "it's like being a kid in a candy store" and "mind your own business". One of the group was so successful that he was given the nickname “Newcomer-fucker”, no joke.
Yes I do step in.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:21

Good for you.

What a shame. These guys transferred bar behavior into a room.

But then you get the cooperation of the women because surely they have observed the same thing. And then you let it go. If you've warned someone and they continue to act, then it is on them. People do have freewill in AA. If you pursue it, you've become them. A harpy, a person trying to manipulate and control.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:29

That incident was deep in the California hunting grounds of Clancy and his Sponsorship Groups Clara, Clancy actively recruits and trains these people.

13 Stepping, Mike Q, Clancy I, Sponsorship Groups and the legacy of Midtown
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/952

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:58

I don't know that, JR. I've talked alot with him this week and I don't get that vibe.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 11:04

You know you did Clara and you are in denial about it. Clancy uses his very famous 7 questions to illicit a sexual inventory from his victims and they don't even realize it. Clancy, the stepper that brought Midtown and the Sponsorship Groups rife with 13th Stepping, deceit and lack of accountability recruited from jails and prisons.

Clancy's Seven Questions - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1231

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 11:55

We have to disagree, JR, because that isn't what it is about. Do you think ttat only the circumstances involving sex are things to have conscious about, or that might make you feel badly or dirty?

Sorry, JR. I think you are using this toward a personal agenda. I think most see the list for just what it is.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

disclosure

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 11:12

I think the notion that AA could be a mental health venue is a good argument since hospitals refer people to the program. This said; is it appropriate for any dating to occur within the rooms? Many vulnerable and damaged people are sent to AA with no idea what is happening to them, is it appropriate or fair for opportunistic people to date those people? Would it be appropriate or fair for new people incapacitated, damaged, and incapable of making good decisions on their own behalf to date each other? I do not think so.
As for Clara's older comment about hateful posts on this thread I disagree. Posters shared their opinion without malice. There was no hate in the posts.

This reminds me of the old AA saying “when you point a finger, four point back at you”. Not that this clever slogan is true in all context, it is however a thought stopping derailment, idiom, or metaphor.
If you are in AA and absorbed in the belief system, wouldn’t it bring you comfort in this case to assume that you are the angry one and not those who you point your finger of judgment at?

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:49

I think there are many of us who were once in the position that you are in now. While we wanted to believe that AA worked, we were unable to stay sober for the duration of our lives using AA's methods. The promises were not coming true for us so we sought out alternative methods.
Much more than this, we found that AA's 12 step program had actually caused a great deal of harm in our lives. That's why I speak out against it... because I believe that it doesn't work. AA's 12 step program is just an unsolicited religious indoctrination. AA takes advantage of vulnerable people and convinces them that they are moral failures in an effort to drive them toward religious conversion... It's really dishonest how AA goes about this.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:55

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 11:17

How can you say it works?

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:55

What is your drug of choice? Is it alcohol?

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:55

disclosure

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 11:18

Your only options are the many possibilities available to you, these options are limited only by your beliefs.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 11:00

Congratulations! You are cured.
Now move on with your life.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:56

Orange's picture

Orange

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 11:19

Hello First-Things-First,

The A.A. that you are describing is the idealized version. It's sort of like Mayberry, Andy Griffith's idealized small town. A wonderful fantasy, but you are going to be hard-pressed to find it in the real world.

The reality that we have found in the real world is a very different thing — cult religion masquerading as some kind of helpful therapy. Of course people are disappointed, and even angry at being deceived in a matter of life or death. Many of them were badly hurt by years of mental manipulation by the A.A. cult.

It's like going to a doctor with a really deadly disease, like cancer, only to discover after he failed to cure your illness, and wasted years of your time, that he is a quack with no medical credentials, and that the cure that he foisted on you never worked, and he lied about that.

No wonder people are angry.

Oh, and should I mention that when I did an "outpatient treatment program", my Stepper counselor who sent us all to A.A. meetings turned out to be a cocaine-snorting child pornographer and child rapist? That's the other side of the coin from the idealized A.A. "self-help" program that you are describing. See:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters298.html#Christina

And again, the Steps don't work to make people quit drinking.
They are only good for messing with people's minds and brainwashing them into believing or being something else. So getting a sponsor and working the Steps won't save people's lives. See:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

Have a good day now.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 12:02

But you can find it, Orange, because it is out there. And if you can use the steps to clean up some ickiness in your life, why not give it a try? It certainly helped me. Maybe it didn't help me "stop drinking." I had stopped before I got there. But I do know that many of the things that I did drink over were worked out through the steps. Perhaps the clean up work kept me from relapsing.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 12:15

Perhaps Orange doesn't need help cleaning up "the ickiness" in his life. Or, maybe he doesn't want to join a cult to do it. There are other ways ya know. If it's needed....You have just made me bust a gut laughing!!! Schooling Orange and telling him to work the steps? ROFLMAO

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 12:30

Avo, I can offer my opinion on this board, just as you can about feeling the judge in that SC case should be reprimanded. Why is it that just because it is Orange that he cannot be questioned?

And there are other ways. You've been to them all.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 12:34

I didnt' say you couldn't. I just thought it was hilarious, haha!

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 12:44

But why is it even hilarious? You act as if he is some sort of guru, a la Wilson, that cannot be asked a question. He's a man with some great ideas that is still approachable and open.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 22:56

That definitely was hilarious, Avo!

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Orange's picture

Orange

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 15:05

Find what? Crazy cult practices?

That "finding it" phrase is just another slogan. There is no "it" to find in A.A.

I don't need to "find it". I quit drinking 11, almost 12 years ago now, and I don't need to "find sobriety". Nor do I need to "find God" or "find salvation", or any of the rest of that. A.A. simply has no "it" to offer.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 23:02

It's not a slogan. I am referring to your Mayberry metaphor. I am sad to discover that it isn't the norm. I never expected to move and find AA to be so different from my original homegroup.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

SandyB's picture

SandyB

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 03:38

They do have cookies

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:58

jonnijoy's picture

jonnijoy

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 11:52

Agent O says; And again, the Steps don't work to make people quit drinking.
JJ says Thats for sure
FTF said; Neither A.A. nor any other self help program is going to work if you don't do the proper amount of input into it.
JJ Thats for sure.
FTF; You can come and go as you please.
JJ; I have been saying that for years
FTF; bonding with other drunks for sharing, and using these two sovereignties as a means of mental relief and release in order combat alcoholism.
JJ; Sharing with other drunks definitely helped me. That and just being with people who were trying to stay clean like I was. It helped for sure. It didnt have to be AA. It could have been any program as long as their were people there going thru the same pain that I was.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 12:07

Exactly, and these people do the same thing here and on RFR. They share their experiences about how bad AA was while denouncing support self help groups. Go figure.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Orange's picture

Orange

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 12:09

Saying, "It works if you put the right amount of effort into it," is nonsense.
That is like saying, "Penicillin works if you put the right amount of effort into it."

The simple truth of the matter is that people quit drinking by no longer putting any alcohol in their mouths. Period. Wasting your spare time doing the practices of Frank Buchman's cult religion is just that — a waste of time.

Not to mention the fact that it is also injurious to your mental health.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 12:41

Perhaps some people need help not putting it in their mouths!

I stopped before going to AA. I went there to keep from going back to it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Orange's picture

Orange

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 14:29

Help? Practicing Frank Buchman's old cult religion is not "help". A.A. routinely pushes that deception. It's a bait-and-switch trick: Offer "help" or "therapy" or "group support" for quitting drinking, but deliver an old guilt-inducing religion that actually increases binge drinking.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 08:57

Orange, I could see your point if I hadn't seen many atheists also getting sober in AA. But I also don't see how any thinking person (or at least a literate one) couldn't read the steps on the wall and hear the stuff I did at my first meeting and not see that there is something of a spiritual overtone there.

But it isn't much diffrent here when we are told that all opinions are welcome, this is a place to deprogram from your lousy rehab experience. All opinions are not welcome and it is a support group so everyone can air their grips about a program that didn't work for them. Talk about keeping it green or remembering your last drunk!

Everything that people claim AA about can be found right here. And that would probably be normal because it all mirrors society in general. If it is "out there" it can be "in here." And those that can't deal with it found other options.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 09:05

Pagans are Spiritual also, in fact they claim to be more Spiritual than Alcoholics Anonymous members....

Pagans in Recovery (PIR) prayers for beginning and ending chanting sessions...

“Let us join in a circle of silent meditation for the purpose of sending love and healing to the lonely and suffering that wish to find us.”

Closing prayer, the Circle Chant: “I am a circle, I am healing you. You are a circle, you are healing me. Unite us, be as one. Unite us, be as one.”

Source:http://www.rewritables.net/cybriety/recovery_prayers.htm

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Conan's picture

Conan

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 09:01

And this time arrange the words so they actually make sense.

Danny is currently "Rachel" - watch out folks, he's learned how to use a spell checker...lol

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:59

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 09:15

The best way to determine if you are in a cult or not is to look for signs such as "Special Language" that the cult members use. In the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous the special term of "dry drunk" is used as a put down and thought stopping slogan to attack the enemies of the cult. The slogan "dry drunk" is actually a slur that can be used on anyone with instant recognition by the other cult members as such.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Ink

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 12:46

I'm allergic to penicillin so I can't work with that stuff. If alcoholism is basically a physiological
disease in which people simply don't metabolize alcohol normally, is it realistic to think that everyone from high power attorneys to illiterate labor workers will benefit from a one size fits all approach, considering that the twelve steps have nothing to do physiology and everything to do with moral and ethics?

When my treatment counselor asked me what religion I am, I failed to see what that has to do with my physiology. I should have been speaking with a medical doctor.

jonnijoy's picture

jonnijoy

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:21

ftf said; God can be anythingg you want even a doorknob
JJ says;; Nobody on here knows anybody that used a doorknob for their HP. Its just a saying. Nobody actually does that..

disclosure

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:31

I have met those who:
Use a door knob as a higher power.
Use the devil as their higher power.
Use the group as thier higher power.
Use the ocean as their higher power.
Use their wife as their higher power.
Use the police as their higher power.
They say; use anything except yourself.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 17:01

The ocean as your higher power! That's wonderful and I can see it. I had great peace at our goddesss dances on the beach at the full moon.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 17:07

The ocean as your higher power! That's wonderful and I can see it. I had great peace at our goddesss dances on the beach at the full moon.

I can see that the ritual chanting and semi secret ceremonies of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous is starting to really take a toll on you. Were these dances accompanied by drumming circles to conjure up the demons to fight?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 17:13

JR, why is it that everything with you features a fight or demons? It is all about love and oneness. This has nothing to do with AA, silly.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 17:22

Alcoholics Anonymous is a cult built to deal with demons and make money for Bill Wilson and Hazelden. The cult thrives on demonizing your past and constantly repenting it as a confession cult. Haven't you ever listened to Clancy I talking about his fight with demons? The continual repetition of the existence of these demons and praying to false gods for a "One Day at a Time" reprieve is not healthy. Bury your demons and go on, no need to be obsessed about it and continually repent them and search out newcomers for the cult to do the same thing.

Listen to Clancy's tapes again and tell me who it talking about demons.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pages