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Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 07/07/2012 - 07:30

Comments

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:49

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:56

FTF said, for the 2nd time: "It's only requirement is a desire to stop drinking." I disagree.

Ok FTF, so when AA/12 steps does "work" , what/who accomplishes the purported objective of "stop drinking"?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:49

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 07:41

Taming the "alcoholic beast" is the result of work done by one's self? But FTF says a "plan" is needed or else "where would you be"? FTF says the end result is upon yourself.

OK.

Plan: QUIT DRINKING ALCOHOL!

Huh, simple. Thanks FTF. : )

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:54

If the alcoholic who is attempting to follow the 12 steps finds he can achieve and maintain sobriety through a partnership with God/god, then he will likely tell you God/god is in the picture. That is his reality. But no one can know for certain.

If the alcoholic who is attempting to follow the 12 steps finds he can achieve and maintain sobriety on his own, without assistance or support from, or belief in, a higher power, he will likely tell you that God/god is not in the picture. That is his reality. But no one can know for certain.

The devil is in the details. The aim is life without alcohol dependence. Who cares how one achieves it, and why is that any of your concern?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:18

If you don't believe me, try refusing to chant Bill Wilson at your next pagan Alcoholics Anonymous ceremony. You will be kicked out of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous until you come back and chant.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:49

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 12:38

Can you verify this somehow, JR Harris? I attended meetings for ten years and not once did I ever see someone ejected from a meeting for any reason, not even in the biker meetings. This looks like more AlAnon hangover bitterness coming from you. You don't have any basis for making such a claim that people would be kicked out of meetings for, say, not reciting the Lord's prayer, or not concurring with "90 meetings in 90 days", which is not even core program anyway.

What brings this on? Slow day on the annihilation front?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

disclosure

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:44

Do you stay in AA because you believe it works even though it isn't working for you?
Is it safe to stay with a group that claims jails, institutions, or death as your other options?
Is it safe to believe you have a disease?
Is it safe to listen to the hypnotic readings between binges?
When you drink between meetings are you drinking badly so the slip isn't wasted?
Have you been to a real doctor for help?
Is it possible that you are still going to meetings because you are trapped in a belief system that won’t let you leave? Is it possible that AA is a cult?
http://cultdefinition.com/

Willingness is always the key to ANY QUIT DRINKING PLAN.
My problems with AA are:
Coercion into membership.
Love Bombing.
Conformity and Identification to support untrue beliefs.
Unhealthy and dangerous beliefs.
Sexual, financial, and emotional exploitation of marginalized members.
Double standards.
Bait and switch.
Outside issues thought derailment.
Hypnotic readings, Neuro Linguistic Programming.
and on and on.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:50

disclosure

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:00

I drank my whole life, caused tremendous damage, and went in and out of AA from 1984 to 1996.
I had continuous abstinence in AA from 1996 to about 2009.
I have been abstinent out of AA since then.
All that has changed is my beliefs.
Is it possible that AA is a cult?
http://cultdefinition.com/

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:50

disclosure

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:48

Yes it is possible that I found a better answer for myself.
If you see hate in my posts it is your interpretation, I am only sharing my experience.
My experience that I share here is positive to me. SOME of what you read here may be interpreted by you to be negative because of your AA based beliefs.
Please post examples for me where you see hate in my comments to you. Illustrating my beliefs as to the negative potential of AA is not bashing, bashing would be making untrue inflammatory statements with no substance.
I am open to your thoughts as you are open to mine, this is a discussion.
Thanks for participating.
Sincerely

flannigan

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:00

You stated above: "God is whatever you want it to be. A power greater than you: a doorknob.... As long as you can focus on that for relief from the helplessness of sobriety." A doorknob as "God"?? The "helplessness of sobriety"??? Do you realize what this "program" is doing to you if you believe these things? If AA is not working for you as you say, and you really want or need a program to stop drinking, write to Orange, originator of this forum. I am sure he will supply you with many rational ideas.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:50

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:23

I never met so many God praying Atheists until I went to AA. It is some kind of badge of courage to claim that you are an atheist while chanting the Lords or Serenity prayer at the end of the Bill Wilson chanting ceremonies normally held in church basements.

I think you may have been experimenting with Atropa Belladonna or LSD in your youth.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:51

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:50

Alcoholics Anonymous is nothing but a vehicle of the Book of Bill Wilson of later day Occultists commonly referred to as the "Big book." According to the scripture of Bill Wilson chanted at every pagan ceremony you need to pray to a "God" of your choosing. Pick one, anyone and try. May I suggest L. Ron Hubbard? It works if you work it and it you don't pray to L. Ron Hubbard 30 times in 30 days you weren't really trying and you will never "get it."

P.S. Don't leave until the miracle happens or the Orange Papers generates 6 million hits a month with your help!

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:51

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 08:40

That bothered me SO much. I would never chant the serenity prayer, or the lords prayer. I would just stay silent, I didn't care if it offended other members, it offended me to have to 'pray' and be in a church.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 09:32

It doesn't offend anyone, Byegood. I know many people that don't come in until after the opening prayers are completed and they leave before the closing prayer. We think nothing of it because it isn't about them. Everyone can do it the way they choose.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 09:45

Uh, Clara, aren't you the one refusing to sign court cards if people don't arrive before the AA chanting ritual starts and stay until the ceremony is completed? Make up your mind Clara, you are the one that holds the signing of court cards over peoples heads if they aren't there for the entire ritual, remember......

You may be interested in this group while you are looking for your "Higher Power" in El Paso Texas:

The El Paso Witches&Pagan&Wiccan Meetup Group

International House of Pancakes (IHOP)
6080 Gateway East , El Paso, TX

Thu Jul 19 7:00 PM
7 attending
43 spots left
0 comments

Source:http://www.meetup.com/witches-549/

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 09:47

Our group conscience in that meeting was that if you wanted a signature, there were things you had to do, which included being on time and staying for the whole meeting. If you didn't want to do it that way, then you could always go to another meeting.

Why is it that the people on this board think that nothing should be required of them?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 09:55

So you force mandated AA members to do the AA prayers in El Paso, Texas and New Mexico Clara? That isn't very Spiritual of you! What gives you the right to hold an AA court Signature card over the heads of the AA newcomers?

You could always send them to the competing cult of Criminon:

Criminon is a program for rehabilitating prisoners using L. Ron Hubbard's teachings. Criminon International, a non-profit, public-benefit corporation managing the Criminon program, was spawned from Narconon International in 2000, and is part of Association for Better Living and Education's public outreach programs.[1] Criminon is promoted by the Church of Scientology International. Independent experts contend that methods used by the program are not supported by any scientific studies.[2][3]

"Second Chance", another prison-based rehabilitation program for prisoners, is closely related to Criminon, from which it licenses the techniques and materials used in its program.[2][3]

Criminon is said to be a prison-based version of Narconon, as the Purification Rundown detoxification and training procedures are also parts of the program.[4]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminon

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:02

I don't chair meetings here, JR, but they have their rules, too. If you don't have your card in the basket when it is passed around, it doesn't get signed.

And they can have their rules, per the fourth tradition. Of course, if you can't participate for whatever reason, tell your PO that. It isn't AA's job to do more than you would ever do for yourself.

It amazes me that people on OPF feel that everything should pander to them. Just don't participate if you don't want to.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:15

But besides the fact that you are either not telling the truth now, or yesterday is immaterial. I suggest you go to the Church of Scientology at 1120 N. El Paso St. El Paso, TX 79902 and hook yourself up to an E-meter to find out the truth.

But you are back peddling on your court card stance again Clara. For further explanation and a downloadable copy of the El Paso AA court card that Clara is holding over peoples heads if they don't do the entire AA ritual, see: "Alcoholics Anonymous "suggestions" from the Interchurch on signing Court Cards (SMF-177) What AA does/Doesn't Do" - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1601

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:10

But not in TX or NM, JR. I am sorry but there just isn't a "gotcha" here.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:22

It doesn't really matter what state you are doing it in Clara, you shouldn't be forcing court mandated AA members to "pray" to some false god to get their cards signed. It is against the rules of Alcoholics Anonymous currently inhabiting the 10th and 11th Floor of the Interchurch Center on 475 Riverside Drive in New York. Shame on you!

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:44

It not my call, JR. If it is part of their probation to attend meetings, then it is what it is. Different groups have different rules for that, so they can look for one that meets their special preferences. As you know, every person that gets sentenced should have complete and total say over what the punishment is since they are the ones in control.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:03

If there isn't power in that craving, why does SMART suggest some "powerful saying" to your "enemy" such as "Scram, you beast! I am mightier than you!"

Why is AA remiss in suggesting that the only powerless we have is the craving itself and how to move on from it? It sounds as if FTF gives into the craving once in a while, hence those breaks in sobriety. Maybe there aren't any SMART, SOS, RR, MM meetings in his area. A problem I have with suggesting other programs lies simply in the fact that all these people making the suggesting aren't doing a thing to see that those options are available. Is anyone here a SMART facilitator?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:51

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:07

SMART, SOS, RR, MM do not require chanting rituals or weird pagan ceremonies in church basements. You can not compare a cult like Alcoholics Anonymous to a non religious self help group that does not require the praying to false gods.

For more about the pagan roots and pagan actions of Alcoholics Anonymous, see: https://mywordlikefire.wordpress.com/

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Linton's picture

Linton

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 12:57

"Hi, I'm Kent Brockman and you're reading this in my voice."

The mind is powerful. Choose the words you put into it. Repeating " I am Powerless" week after week, year after year can't be very helpful.

Linton

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:52

flannigan

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:35

You really are something. Orange is not "my messiah". I have no idea why you would think or write that. I was actually trying to help you find some program/treatment modality that might help you in your struggle against addiction and I know that Orange has a list of them somewhere on his site. But you couldn't resist the slur, could you? Good luck to you, I think you are going to need it. BTW- Orange does not live on a mountaintop, he lives in Portland, Oregon. I don't know if he meditates or not. You will have to ask him that yourself.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:52

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:49

Happy landing my AA/12 stepping lover of a friend.

When you come back we can talk about beliefs.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:41

FTF said: “I don't understand how people cry after they themselves made a bad judgement call.”

Yep. Stepper illogic rears its fugly head, once again. Blame the victim. LOL.

Why should a substance abuser expect not to be victimized in a "self-help" group? Self-help victimization? LOL.

Substance abusers, when seeking help, are vulnerable, not thinking clearly, feeling hopeless and seeking answers and help.

FTF said: "All these stories of coercion, manipulation, being taken advantage of, etc., I merely see as a manifestation of a person's own defects in societal settings; i.e., they would happen anywhere they went because they are "victims" in society."

FTF, so you are saying that I, or we as a society, should just continue to allow the 13 stepping to go on, allow the mental abuse of members to go on, allow the financial predation to continue, all because shit happens in life?

Isn't AA supposed to be a "port in the storm"?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:52

disclosure

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:52

I also hope you find YOUR answers and achieve YOUR goals. I hope that this discussion has helped, and I hope that you know your options are limitless.
Respectfully

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:05

It probably did help him to see that hate is not the answer to anything. Good for him.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:52

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:56

I wonder... Do you always stand up when you see something going on that is wrong, FLOD? Or do you just let things float by, figuring that it is someone else's fight? Or I don't like that neighbor so I don't care that the person on the other side does stuff to them? Or their kids bother me so I am not going to do such and such... In other words, do principles always weigh first or does personality drive your mores?

I stepped in (no pun intended) when I thought someone was being 13 stepped, ony to be told by all three parties involved that it was none of my business. 13 stepping is a tough call because some people do date in AA. This one year rule isn't an AA rule, so if a guy is asking out a newcomer, is he wrong? Is the woman wrong if she accepts? That is rehab speak and it is nowhere in AA literature. Now, do I personally believe the guy is right to ask the woman out? No, I don't, but that is a Clara opinion, not AA.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:17

Do you think I am a person driven by personality or principles?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:56

I am not sure. On RFR, Mfc has established rules to follow. The language is nicer and the protocol serves as a filter. Of course, it must get boring as everyone shows back up here. Here on OPF, the sole social filter you have is your own. If you use poor language, that is just who you are. There are no such things a slips. If you abuse women, it shows up because of how you post and who you focus on. It's an amazing study here. When you share something someone else told you in confidence, that is who you are. It was amazing to see this exchange with this other person that is leaving AA but has no animosity, and this group is trying to suggest that he should have some because THEY do. They want to pass on their anger. How sad.

Ironic just called me a troll in another post. My opinion differs from hers on AA. That makes you a troll on OPF. Yet if you go to RFR, you see others geefully talking about being in AA sites gathering "intell" [sic] while we are routinely asked why we are here. No one bothered to ask her why she was doing that. So I guess everyone is a troll that participates on the internet.

You have Danny's people stalking him around, and gleefully telling people that they will, while also cautioning others to his tricks and tactics. They've become him, LFOD. They cloak it in rightousness, but they have in fact become him, and they do it to people that have had nothing to do with Danny or his history. You don't have to, either. You just have to have found some support in AA because that is where they think he got power over them.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 15:13

Huh...I gave that person a positive message, actually, Clara.

No one cares about Danny, either. He's been banned.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 07/07/2012 - 19:48

You probably did with respect to the controversy with the grandchild, but for other behaviors, the double standard is hugely clear. What you people bitch about is not discouraged in others.

I don't know if Trish was Danny or not. I just believe she wasn't capable of doing the things that you and others are, PIE. It was greasy, and you know it. I never followed up on Danny and don't care to, but I have seen enough of the behavior of the people claiming to have been victimized by him to know that they are no different than what they claim he is. You don't have to know Danny to be abused by them and for them to feel justified in what they do. Just happy in AA. And to think you had warned me about me those many months ago.

Now, let's agree to disagree. You have wanted not to be in contact with me, and I agree. Yes, my chauvenistic husband will be making more changes when we get back to my computer.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:53

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 15:04

FTF said >>"I've seen groups shut down after being requested to follow the guidelines and they continued."

Can you provide names of the groups that AA, not the law or bad press, shut down for 13 steppin.

Not that I don't believe you but I'd like to see evidence. Thanks.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

First-Things-First (not verified)

Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:53

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