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Sat, 07/07/2012 - 07:39
AA is not a "self-help" program. Please read the literature which is recited before each meeting. And no, AA does not work to help alcoholics overcome their addiction any better than no treatment. The ONLY way to stop drinking is to stop drinking. God, steps, HP, meetings, sponsors, Big Book, etc. have nothing to do with it. And what does a "spiritual experience" (whatever that is supposed to mean) have to do with stopping drinking? I don't hate AA as you seem to think. AA is quackery, a fraud, a hoax. It should be exposed as the failure it is and always has been. AA is a religious organization masquerading as a treatment modality for alcoholism.
First-Things-First (not verified)
Thu, 09/06/2012 - 03:30
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:44
L. Ron Hubbard is dead also and Scientology is a cult, but Hubbard is still the leader. As for being a Religious organization I would suggest you take that up with the Alcoholics Anonymous World Services at the Interchurch Center on 475 Riverside Drive on any Friday when they have an open AA chanting ritual at 11am closed by the Lords Prayer. You are correct that Alcoholics Anonymous is a heavily recommended cult of the US Judiciary system and AA regularly goes on "canned hunt" prospect hunting trips to jails and prisons to bring their prey back to residential areas to perform weird chanting rituals in church basements and lower housing values. The people that run the evangelistic AA circuit speaker route that pushes AA are often the original prospects recruited from jails and prisons, please listen to your AA speaker tapes to verify this, they usually admit it.
P.S. When AA tells you to "leave your brain at the door", please don't forget to pick it up on your way back out, most Steppers do.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 15:42
"P.S. When AA tells you to "leave your brain at the door", please don't forget to pick it up on your way back out, most Steppers do."
The program of Alcoholics Anonymous does not tell you to leave your brain at the door. Misled, misinformed meeting attendees may say something idiotic like this, but it is not part of the 12-step program.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 08:07
More than half of AA's attendees are mandated by the judicial system.
"Jail or AA, you choose." That is the epitome of coercion.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 09:51
I don't know where that stat comes from, but why not tell the PO that you don't want that and suggest an alternative? Then you become mandated to another program.
And I thought that it was determined that no one CAN choose their sentence, even though I do believe most people WOULD choose AA over jail. But I wonder if anyone has ever had the balls to insist on jail.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 20:02
More than half?? Studies, statistics, proof please.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:06
You actually don't see that AA is a religious organization? Have you read the steps? Do you pray at meetings? Do people talk about God and what He is doing for them? And, yes, AA is a cult, a religious cult pretending to be a treatment for alcoholism. And no, a cult does not have to have a living leader to be a cult. (i.e. Scientology)
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:54
The cult of Alcoholics Anonymous has a specific God that they pray to, that is the AA God that they chant his scripture of at every ritual chanting ritual ceremony. You are left up to "identifying" which God that you want, but you still have to chant the scripture of a delirious Atropa Belladonna induced Bill Wilson when he was formulating the "Book of Shadows" of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous known as the original working monolith manuscript now in the possession of The Hazelden Foundation in Minnesota that trains AA exorcists and "bounty hunters" in the form of "Interventionists" to go out and capture prospects for Alcoholics Anonymous that the US court system misses.
Tue, 07/10/2012 - 22:40
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:17
If you believe that a doorknob can help keep you sober, I think OPF is the wrong forum for you. I am glad that you are posting here but don't expect many on OPF to agree with the doorknob absurdity. I don't actually believe that you believe it, but.....
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 09:11
That was a statement that was anecdotal. I don't think anyone meant that with any sincerity and I haven't heard it used in rooms. I read it first in Ebert's article on his Chicago homegroup.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 17:52
Little harm is being done by the Orange site to the recovery of alcoholics. Although this site is loaded with cynicism, vitriol, personal bias and mistruths (mandatory 12-Step program participation, AA doesn't work, Bill was an asshole), the fact remains that alcoholism is a compulsive disorder that is extremely difficult to overcome without the constant support of others who understand the disease and come together to share the "kinship of common suffering." There is something to be said for programs like Smart Recovery and SOS but their support groups, when they exist at all, are not widely available and the best testimony for the success of AA is the fact that it's available widely in the U.S. and almost every country in the world. It's recommended by alcohol treatment professionals for that very reason and, yes, Orange, it is extremely difficult to quit and stay quit without these "self-help group" meetings. Picture the things soldiers are able to do in the field of battle that they could never do alone. There is safety in numbers. And strength. As for AA Nazis and Cultism in AA, get a grip. The 12 Steps are only suggestions and when I attend a meeting where people sharing get heavily into the supposed "musts" of the program (12 Stepping, the God problem, etc.) I simply share on the day's topic and make clear to the group that I do not believe in an active and caring God and don't work the steps. This usually leads to others in the room sharing similar views. We don't do this to actively complain or criticize but to make clear that nothing is required or mandatory about AA except a desire to stop drinking. For those of you who have felt oppressed or scolded in an AA meeting, my advice is simple..find another meeting. You always learn something in any AA meeting, even if it's just that you never want to go to that particular meeting again. And stand up for yourself and state your disbelief in God or cultism or 12-stepping or whatever irritates you about your AA group. You're not a wimp, you have no need to accept things you don't agree with. I live in Philadelphia and attend (among many other meetings) an agnostic meeting in which we do not read How It Works or use the word "God" when starting the serenity prayer. You can start one of your own with the full sanctioning of the AA World Organization. Comparing AA to a cult like Scientology is just so much "must-erbation." See you in the rooms, ~Stew
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 08:12
"the best testimony for the success of AA is the fact that it's available widely in the U.S. and almost every country in the world."
Real diseases have treatments that are studied over and over again, and doctors can tell their patients the usual success rate of the treatment.
Few legitimate studies of Steppism exist, but from those we know that AA is as or less effective than no treatment at all.
A.A.'s availability is due to it being free, not due to it actually working. If you want to see the studies just say so, any one of us would be happy to provide links to factual information.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 09:13
Then I wonder why the alternatives don't even bother with doing studies so that they can offer stats as to their effectiveness. Can you offer links to those? A person might find them to be interesting, especially if the AA in their area isn't what they want.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 18:50
That is OK, most of us were active Bill Wilson chanters at one time but "more will be revealed" when you start to pull back the covers of the Alcoholics Anonymous confession cult. For a very good explanation of what you will be feeling once you get the "white light" of truth on the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous, see:
"A short story" published by Linton - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1857
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 22:22
JR Harris, you never got loose in any environment and chanted a fuckin thing in your life. You probably sleep with a tie on.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 06:22
There you go again with words like cult, chanters, and confession. No white light is necessary. Tradition 10 is about political controversy and is not an instruction to not discuss AA or to speak freely in its defense. Does the fact that it's available to millions of alcoholics make it a cult or a helpful solution?
See you in the rooms where we can speak freely among other recovering alcoholics.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 06:34
Newcomers group in El Paso Texas every Saturday in July, not just the Cult of Alcoholics Anonymous Prospect hunts! Cross training for Intercult Relationships - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1862
The differences between Alcoholics Anonymous and Scientology - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/787
What are the similarities between Alcoholics Anonymous and Scientology based NARCONON? - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1100
Does this Scientology cult complaint sound just like the complaints about Alcoholics Anonymous? - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1806
Are Scientology Security Checks (sec check) the hybred 5th Step of the confession cult of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA)? - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1805
Are you Orange's eunuch, JR Harris? By the looks of your links, you worship him.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 05:40
It's just a smoke screen. Or is it just another conspiracy theory?
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:03
Just one problem- AA doesn't work any better than no treatment in helping alcoholics overcome their addiction.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 05:39
Then why has the movement which started with about 20 alcoholics talking together in the 30's increased (without fund-raising, self-promotion or grants) to a worldwide program of millions of alcoholics meeting to help each other remain sober? It seems to help a lot of people who need varying degrees of company, support, and (for some) faith and spirituality to get and remain sober for long periods of time. Play with the numbers all you want, it's a constantly growing and acceptable solution to alcohol recovery. Place your bets (and hopes) as you wish. ~Stew
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 05:46
What a wonderful example of AA speak. The post reads as perfectly rational and believable. The truth is that every single word in the post is a lie. Bill Wilson's inspirational example lives on. What a joke.
Danny is currently "Rachel" - watch out folks, he's learned how to use a spell checker...lol
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 19:56
Anyone can make an unsupported claim like yours. Point out the parts that you believe are a lie and explain why.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 08:15
If AA really is a dazzling success as you claim, you'll be able to show us some longitudinal studies with control groups that back up your claims.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 08:37
And while people are at it, perhaps they can also show some studies that show the success rates of the alternatives that are regularly promoted on OPF. I am surprised that even after 20 years for SMART, there are none... and even longer than that for SOS.
It is obvious from this forum that some things work, some things don't. There are people here that have tried EVERYthing out there, but they found what works best for them and stuck with it, whatever it is.
But don't offer up anything from Wikipedia or Ironic will put out a contract on you.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 09:25
Stew, you asked "why" has AA evolved to what it is today. The answer is brainwashing, lies, false promises, and threats. The membership rate is tallied by counting e1 and that includes those sentenced to be there and those that go just a few times and split. From what I understand they also count members several times, like if one guru goes to 7 meetings in one week they are counted 7 times. The 2 million that you refer to is a stagnant and false number that hasn't been increasing, despite the numerous sentencing and multiple errors in the calculations.
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 05:43
So, no treatment is better than any treatment?
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 09:17
I don't know who said that, but for me treatment that involved steppism was not only worthless but also negative.
Persephone In Exile
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 09:19
Avo, same for me. (Though I'm sure that hardly bears repeating here....)
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 13:31
Alcohol is widely available worldwide, but only a small percentage of the population is alcoholic. AA is also available worldwide, and only a small percentage of doorknob worshippers claim it helps. What really works is an individual seeking the most appropriate therapy for him/her, whatever they feel helps is fine by me. Personally I don't believe aa helped me at all, other than realizing things could always be worse...
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 13:35
Do you know what % of adult (over 18) population would be considered "alcoholic"? Just wondering.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 07:48
You are right. AA is an "acceptable solution to alcohol recovery". What was I thinking? Well, you convinced me. Carry on.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 08:54
No, what I said was that no treatment has the same results as any treatment (including AA).
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 08:59
If one wants to stop drinking, what works best is to stop drinking. If one doesn't stop drinking, then no "program" can possibly work. BTW- do you miss Maryland steamed crabs and crab cakes? I know the answer to that one.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 09:05
You sure do, don't you! LOL! Did you try JO Seasoning? It's out of Baltimore, and I like it better than Old Bay.
As I said, Flan, I could put down the drink but I always found a reason or justification for picking it back up. And you are right. If one doesn't stop drinking, nothing can help which is why AA is an abstinent program. When people say that they left AA and went to HAMS, what else can you take from that but that they wanted to go back to drinking but do it a bit better? Of course, AA and other things like it would become a very uncomfortable place to be. And hat's off to them for the their honesty because WANTING to not drink is a big part of it. If you don't want to and aren't putting the drink down, then what can anyone tell that person? It ain't the place for you so don't frustrate yourself with it...
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 09:15
AAs seem really stuck on this idea that there is something wrong (sinful, even) with going back to drinking, even if it's moderated. So what? Maybe complete abstinence wasn't right for them.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 09:26
AA exists because of those people that found they could not drink safely. If you decide to give it another go with something else, no one will stop you, but it follows that you wouldn't feel comfortable in the program. AA is for those that have already tried those things and want something different.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 20:00
I wonder if there are any statistics (that would pass muster with Ironic) illustrating the number of alcoholics who have gone back to controlled drinking and who eventually became dependent again.
How much fun can it be to be a drunk moderating every single sip of booze? Yuck.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 09:31
I will have to try JO seasoning. But better than Old Bay??? And I am happy for your sobriety and glad you enjoy participation in AA. Whether one drinks a little, a lot, or not at all is not really that important to me. The world is a big enough place for all of us.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 09:41
Old Bay just has something in it that it a bit too piquant for me.
Yes, I think there are many options out there, and I am certain that each enjoys a special success.
Mon, 07/09/2012 - 19:52
Flanagan, aasux, avogadno, you all are right. Dead on. We meet because it helps us to stay sober, we pray because it unites us and makes us feel we have a common bond beyond ourselves, some of us have a lot of stored up guilt and have done some really harmful things to others, and some of us find that working a totally voluntary 12 Step program helps them to put some of that guilt behind them. I think almost all true alcoholics feel some shame and remorse as a result of their uncontrollable drinking, their isolated lifestyle and their self-centered thinking, and I see people in the rooms become better people over time and experience joy and gratitude for this recovery process. Emotionally, physically, and even dare I say spiritually. Millions of people have been helped by A.A. but I guess I can't prove that to you, anymore than the Catholic church can prove that it gets its followers to a heavenly afterlife (by conducting controlled exit polls.) We're a nation of addicts and we struggle to rise above our problems with alcohol, drugs, obesity, gambling, morality, and that pesky God question. I went through three rehabs, relapsing by intent (meaning I never intended to quit to begin with for more than a small period of time.) My fourth rehab has worked because I finally WANTED to quit drinking for the rest of my life. I went to 367 meetings in 365 days for support and companionship and, after 15 years of trying, I finally got one complete year of freedom from alcohol. If you want me to prove how I did it and why it works and continues to work, send me $500 in cash (plus shipping and handling) and I'll send you the cloak, the candles, the secret handshake and a decoder ring.
Thanks to Clara for my exit line... my comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA. ~Stew
Tue, 07/10/2012 - 08:54
Congrats on your 1 year freedom from alcohol. Wishing you many more (as many as you want). Surprising what humans can do when they really WANT to do something. You deserve much credit, in fact, all the credit for your sobriety. I'll pass on the request for $500 (plus S&H) for the cloak, candles, secret handshake, and decoder ring. You don't need "to prove" anything to me or anybody else. I'm glad you found what you wanted in AA and hope your experience there will continue to be positive. Again, congrats on your sobriety, you did it yourself.