[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters315.html#Adam ]
From: "Adam"
Date: Thu, July 5, 2012 11:00 am
What if your site had a "sloganalysis" section? It should be as quick and easy as
hearing the slogans themselves. For example, for "your own best thinking got you
here" there could be a list of responses such as "didn't you just tell me my hands
would stop shaking in a few days but my brain won't be right for about 18 months?"
Each sales pitch slogan would simply be listed with several good responses.
Hi Adam, What a neat idea. That could be a lot of fun. I love snappy come-backs to A.A. slogans, like: Yes, I had a moment of clarity and decided to quit drinking and save my own life. So it really was my best thinking that got me here, wasn't it? The problem with KISS is that it often leads to LOVE: Leave Out Virtually Everything. If everybody is just faking it until they make it, then all you have is a room full of fakes. "AA is 'the last house on the block' for a reason: it's full of arsonists who've been burning down the other houses!" — Madame Senga What if I don't want any of it?
Yes, this could be fun. The new forum thread is here: Have a good day now. == Orange
That really sounds like a good subject for the forum. There, people could post
dozens or hundreds of their own ideas, slogans and snappy come-backs.
http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/1844
* orange@orange-papers.org * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/ * ** I thank God that He chose to give me a working brain, rather ** than just a lump of dense, unthinking meat between the ears.
SPK77
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 18:16
Permalink
Sorry I havent been able to make AA.
I couldn't find a parking spot to make the meeting, my disease was doing push-ups all over the parking lot.
Adam
Sun, 11/18/2012 - 07:13
Permalink
I think this whole thread's a
I think this whole thread's a mistake now. You don't want bad, needy people to get to know you. ARGUING WITH THEM GETS YOU INVOLVED WITH THEM!
That's the whole reason Einstein's insanity argument shouldn't be allowed to influence you into the group. It's more than just trying something different, it's letting a whole bunch of bad, needy people get to know you.
Are you so smart that they won't be able to poison you? None of them, not even the psychopaths?
I don't think science knows all there is to know about rapport and the bond that groups can share. I think anyone who's been to the group ought to read a gospel a day until they're over it, while forgiving till it hurts. I hear yoga is good for that too, if you're not into Jesus Christ, but can't vouch for it personally.
DeConstructor
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 21:12
Permalink
Great thread
If it works, don't fix it. -but dont think too much about that one
Think, think, think-but dont think too much about that one
You will be amazed-but dont think too much about that one
Don't intellectualize----utilize.-but dont think too much about that one
I am starting to see a pattern here.
SandyB
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 07:27
Permalink
Sometimes a meeting is like an orgy
you leave feeling great and have no idea who did it
Brett
Wed, 07/18/2012 - 15:29
Permalink
sometimes a meeting is like an orgy
everyone catches the pox & you have no idea who started it.
sometimes a cigar is more than a cigar, just ask monica.
Brett
aasux
Mon, 07/16/2012 - 16:13
Permalink
I quit going because I was
I quit going because I was told you can't be too dumb for aa, but you can be to smart...I prefer the latter...
Morgan
Tue, 09/04/2012 - 23:33
Permalink
That one's a real kick in the fuckin' teeth
and it seems to be widely parroted, to the shame of everyone who does so.
aasux
Mon, 07/16/2012 - 16:13
Permalink
plus, my side of the street
plus, my side of the street is clean enough to eat on. It's your side that needs work, so keep coming back...
istj04
Wed, 07/18/2012 - 09:57
Permalink
In addition to "Slogan Analysis", how about "QA feedback"? ;)
Since all merchants nowadays, seem to want you to "call a number" or submit a "feedback review" of their establishment (restaurant, grocery store, etc.), why don't 12 Step groups? How about some potential criteria & "answers" for bringing some "rigorous honesty" into & ABOUT those 12 Step groups . . . .
1.) 12 Step Meeting attended (AA/NA/GA/OA):
2.) Location of meeting (Bar, crack house, church basement, incarceration facility, rehab):
3.) Length of meeting (Too fucking long, not long enough, about the right length):
4.) Quality of meeting content (Boring as hell, most life-changing experience I have had, too fucking under the influence to care, etc.):
5.) I am attending this meeting because (coerced-i.e. a "hostage", voluntary-i.e. I think 12 Step meetings are awesome because I have no fucking life, I am here for stalking and "13th Stepping" purposes", I am an undercover law enforcement agent, and am spying on the people I coerce to meetings"):
6.) Appropriate snacks & beverages were available at this meeting: Yes (no changes necessary), No (WHERE WAS THE FUCKING ALCOHOL, METH & SMACK GODDAMMIT?!)
7.) This meeting had a coffeepot available, and it was "guarded": Yes (the "monitor" kept asking me if I wanted more!), NO (I could have stolen it, and end the meeting in heartbeat!).
8.) I heard and experienced the same repetitive rituals and verbage I have seen at other meetings: Yes No
9.) I found the opening and closing prayers to be (e.g.-proof that 12 Step group are dangerous fucking cults, "spiritually" enhancing, boring-since sacrificing a small animal, or a relapsed meeting attendee would have been a better "spiritual experience"!):
10.) I would attend another one of these meetings: Yes (I am a true-believing, completely fucking brainwashed cult member), No (unless coerced, and threatened with incarceration!).
Adam
Thu, 08/23/2012 - 16:59
Permalink
This isn't going as I'd hoped.
I was hoping for short, rational replies which debunked the slogans and promises instead of snappy comebacks. They would be for if your friend or loved one were being taken in as much as for having an answer for program recruiters.
I've thought of a few: "It works when you work it sober"->"that claim needs a sponsor!" i.e. not accountable.
"You're only as sick as your secrets!" -> "Really? where can I find the idea outside AA that I have to share my personal stuff with another drunk?"
Clara
Wed, 09/05/2012 - 07:00
Permalink
Sick as your secrets... Well
Sick as your secrets... Well, I find confession and variations of it all over the world. Your secrets can have power over you which is released when you tell someone and start practicing right thinking. I don't think you have to be an AA, a buddhist or a catholic to have heard some variation of this.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Adam
Thu, 09/06/2012 - 19:18
Permalink
Sure, and the Oxford group
Sure, and the Oxford group was ostensibly based on Christianity. Bait and switch. Sure, it kinda sounds the same, but it's not. Catholics practice anonymous confession. You never see the priest and he never sees you.
They practice brain surgery all over the world, does that mean you want your sponsor and group operating on your brain? What if they call it the same thing as the brain surgeons?
Clara
Thu, 09/06/2012 - 19:37
Permalink
Adam, I did my fifth step
Adam, I did my fifth step with a professional, although my sponsor surely does to 5th steps. Often the people he does 5th steps with end up needing some professional expertise when it comes to the clean up steps.
I still find this to be a very worthwhile thing to do. Iti s hardly limited to Christianity.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Adam
Thu, 09/06/2012 - 19:44
Permalink
Well, if somebody other than
Well, if somebody other than that profesional wants to pry into your affairs, perhaps to make you feel like you needed to get their approval as part of your decision making process, you may feel free to use my retort, free of charge.
Free-me
Tue, 09/04/2012 - 22:31
Permalink
"AA may not get you sober but it will wreck your drinking.."
I find this to be such a revealing saying
to me it says:
"We are going to make you worse"
and yes AA..for a long time you did.
The Truth will set you free..
Morgan
Tue, 09/04/2012 - 23:37
Permalink
It says
"we're a bunch of mean-spirited assholes! We're insensitive and laugh inappropriately at your pain."
Free-me
Wed, 09/05/2012 - 02:25
Permalink
and we smile at you when you
and we smile at you when you complain
The Truth will set you free..
becket
Tue, 09/18/2012 - 13:56
Permalink
When I went to AA we laughed
When I went to AA we laughed a lot at our own pain, but not at the pain of others. Maybe there's a little hypersensitivity or misinterpretation going on there.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Adam
Thu, 09/20/2012 - 07:24
Permalink
You knew you had to in order
You knew you had to in order to avoid disapproval.
RE:"When I went to AA we laughed a lot at our own pain, but not at the pain of others. Maybe there's a little hypersensitivity or misinterpretation going on there."
becket
Thu, 09/20/2012 - 10:38
Permalink
I am not an approval-seeking
I am not an approval-seeking sponge. I didn't have to do a goddamn thing. I laughed because the stories were compelling and funny.
Maybe you were compelled to try to fit in and laugh at shit that wasn't funny. Is that it? Projection much??
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Adam
Thu, 09/20/2012 - 13:08
Permalink
"I am not an approval-seeking
"I am not an approval-seeking sponge" well that may or may not be true :-) but the suggestion was that there was controlling pressure from the group.
becket
Thu, 09/20/2012 - 20:59
Permalink
" . . . the suggestion was
" . . . the suggestion was that there was controlling pressure from the group."
There was no suggestion that anyone is duty-bound to succumb to it or any other kind of "pressure" in AA.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Adam
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 14:05
Permalink
So our own best thinking got us here & you can tell us anything?
Because it's time for a change and we don't want to keep doing the same thing (not believing everything we hear) and expecting different results?
I've been, OK? I know there's pressure to conform.
becket
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 10:41
Permalink
What does this post mean,
What does this post mean, Adam? If you felt pressure to conform, and you did conform, that's on you, not on AA or its meetings or its attendees. If you felt threatened then you conformed due to weakness, fear, desire to fit in, or any number of other mindsets. It is all in perception, not in the externals, unless physical force was used.
You always had a choice.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Adam
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 13:32
Permalink
"What does this post mean,
"What does this post mean, Adam? If you felt pressure to conform, and you did conform, that's on you, not on AA or its meetings or its attendees. If you felt threatened then you conformed due to weakness, fear, desire to fit in, or any number of other mindsets. It is all in perception, not in the externals, unless physical force was used.
You always had a choice."
How ridiculously high can you set the bar for being controlling? I'm sorry but that's just silly.
If one feels coerced or even threatened, then it's not a controlling cult, because they haven't actually kidnapped you and forced you to do things?
HOWEVER, silly comments aside, I contend the pressure comes not from threats so much as a misleading sales pitch which claims AA is the only thing that works.
There are even stories of people being told to go back out. When an alcoholic undergoes natural remission, sometimes they go to a meeting and are taught that's what sobered them up, and not going along is the same as wanting to go back out.
seagal007
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 14:27
Permalink
pressure to comply
If AA was truely compassionate about helping people addicted to alcohol they would tell those people about the alternatives out there when they saw that AA wasnt working. Instead AA uses fear tactics saying that if you leave AA you will fail.
Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom
becket
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 17:12
Permalink
That would be like going to a
That would be like going to a court-appointed lawyer for help on a legal matter and asking him for a referral to a "real lawyer". The world don't work that way, sweetie.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Adam
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 18:05
Permalink
Thanks for the double edged sword!
Let's say your lawyer had the same batting average as defendants without counsel. Should this lawyer claim to be sent by God to save you, and the only lawyer with any effectiveness?
becket
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 18:26
Permalink
Do you mean let's say the
Do you mean let's say the lawyer was as effective as no lawyer? The lawyer does not need to claim anything. He works for you, you don't work for him. You call the shots, just as anyone who attends AA does.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Adam
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 19:43
Permalink
Ah the "just keep talking" ploy-should work w the brain damaged
Yes, let's say your hypothetical lawyer was as effective as no lawyer at all, just like recovery groups that are shown to be as effective as natural remission.
So is it the only thing that works, or is it up to you? Of course it's up to you, because you're just as likely to sober up without treatment. As far as that goes, you're being honest.
becket
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 19:46
Permalink
"Is it the only thing that
"Is it the only thing that works?" For some. Not for all.
"Is it up to you?" Is WHAT up to you/me/them?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
seagal007
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 18:34
Permalink
What do lawyers have to do with AA?
Lawyers are liscenced and can be made accountable.
Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom
becket
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 18:49
Permalink
Read back 4 or 5 posts to get
Read back 4 or 5 posts to get the gist if you're really interested.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
seagal007
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 18:58
Permalink
I read back ??
Still dont see where lawyers come in.
Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom
becket
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 19:44
Permalink
becket
becket
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 20:12
It's an analogy.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
seagal007
Sat, 09/22/2012 - 04:42
Permalink
It dont work that way,sweety.
Because AA wants to keep its near monopoly in the addiction field.
Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom
Morgan
Thu, 09/20/2012 - 19:54
Permalink
becket - yes, there is a huge difference between "laughing with
you" and "laughing at you."
"We're not laughing at you...we're laughing WITH you!"
"But...I'm not laughing." (from the film "Happiness")
Which is the problem I had with people (men, mostly) in AA who would repeat those slogans after I stated that I'd just drank, but was going to keep trying. "So, how was it out there? Any different? Well, thanks for trying it out for me!" har har har har...I don't think it's necessarily pure sadism, and I guess there are worse responses (like snubbing you). They get used to self-deprecation and there's that "there but for the grace of God, go I"/knock on wood...and slogans are easy to trot out where good taste and judgment would be appropriate.
Still, there's no excuse for the "too dumb" thing, unless the slogan itself is being mocked. On the face of it it's insulting. "Dumb" as in foolish (in one's behavior) or in intelligence? There's a big difference.
Eradicated-Self
Tue, 09/18/2012 - 13:44
Permalink
"Through this program....a Life Beyond My Wildest Dreams"
well...of course things got better. You're bound to find a job, get a girlfriend, re-establish trust when your not waking up in vomit. Abstinence can work wonders....
"I pray to God everyday that I never get the idea that I can run my own life."
- Anonymous
Raymond Hessel
Tue, 09/18/2012 - 14:25
Permalink
Jesus bought me a Ferrari
One person I knew who became involved in AA used to criticize certain members and groups because as he put it they would claim that Jesus bought them a Ferrari. They treated material success as a marker of success in sobriety. Of course, in his way, he had created a whole new slogan. This one, however, didn't catch on.
Orange
Wed, 09/19/2012 - 17:10
Permalink
Material wealth
What an interesting coincidence: I just got a letter where a woman bragged about her material success, and claimed that it proved that A.A. works:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters325.html#Amy_S
As if A.A. gave her all of that stuff without her even having to work for it. Wow. I'd sign on in a minute if wealth was that easy and guaranteed. I just say a few prayers and "Higher Power" gives me all of that stuff? Sounds like a great program to me.
becket
Thu, 09/20/2012 - 10:39
Permalink
What, she didn't work for it?
What, she didn't work for it?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Morgan
Thu, 09/20/2012 - 20:36
Permalink
It sounds like she definitely worked for it, but as Orange often
repeats, AA gets the credit while the individual doesn't. is that too much of a sweeping generalization? To be honest, I think it probably is. But it seems clear to me that Orange would give her the credit, and little (if any) to AA. I can't honestly say that she wasn't helped by something she got from AA. How would I know? Faith is involved, and that can't be quantified.
Luminous
Tue, 03/26/2013 - 19:18
Permalink
I have a great life too
and AA and 12-step groups have absolutely nothing to with it. Nothing to with my ability to trust myself to understand that I never want to drink again either.
"Wisdom begins with questioning. Sanity begins with 'No'." - Anne Wilson Schaef
Luminous
Tue, 03/26/2013 - 19:24
Permalink
I have a great life too
and AA and 12-step groups have absolutely nothing to with it. Nothing to do with my ability to trust myself to understand that I never want to drink again either.
"Wisdom begins with questioning. Sanity begins with 'No'." - Anne Wilson Schaef
YuppieMonkey
Thu, 09/20/2012 - 14:25
Permalink
Cult BS
Yep. All the good shit that happens in life is because of AA and because you are working a good program. Every time you get to eat a mile of shit, it was because of self-will and doing things "your way".
That is some good ole brainwashing there.
Tools, Tards, Dolts...Dopes!!!
"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs
SandyB
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 05:43
Permalink
Real spiritual cunt
Everything she has and she calls this country a shithole?
May cancer visit her body. She can put those bennys to work
Morgan
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 10:53
Permalink
Yikes
Maybe she's referring to politics, endless war, poverty (she does cite the economy in the same breath)...all of that. Cancer? Yikes!
JR Harris
Sat, 11/17/2012 - 07:31
Permalink
Why Consumers Rebel Against Slogans - Harvard Business Review
Source: http://hbr.org/2011/11/why-consumers-rebel-against-slogans/ar/1
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
JR Harris
Mon, 11/26/2012 - 14:32
Permalink
Slogan Analysis "It Works If You Work It!"
There are many slogans very close to "It Works If You Work It!" that have been used to harm people. Can you Identify these Slogans and where they are?




Hint: "Arbeit macht frei" in English means "labour makes (you) free"
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Orange
Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:52
Permalink
Arbeit Macht Frei
Oh that's good.
Pages