Let's argue about Step 2 (or, Are You Insane?)

live_free_or_die's picture
Submitted by live_free_or_die on Sun, 07/01/2012 - 04:34

July 9, 2011

Steven Orma
© San Francisco Examiner

Step Two: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

"AA says that you must give yourself up to a Higher Power in order to overcome your drinking problem.

However, the concept “Higher Power” is not clearly defined. AA says that a Higher Power does not necessarily refer to God or religion, but it is described as a “Power greater than ourselves,” which means in essence, something non-human. This sounds like hair splitting to me,and I wonder why AA does not just say that Higher Power refers to a mystical force based on faith, instead of trying to distance itself from God and religion. Whichever way AA defines Higher Power, the idea requires one to give up his own personal power to a “power” outside himself that will stop him from drinking. How is this actually accomplished? This is not stated clearly in the AA philosophy."
***************************************************

In order to live the AA life, and receive the benefits of the AA life, Do you have to be insane?

Why the pretense that AA is not about god. In the beginning, before publication, the AA bible had god written all over it, didn't it? Didn't the 100 men have serious objections to that? Or do I have it wrong?

Would the Big Book be more marketable if it was made more palatable to the masses? Is that what the objections were about?

Seriously, can a "higher power" that is a door knob remove the "alcoholic's" character defects?

So let us admit that the 12 steps are about communing with god, and not a holy door knob. How exactly does god perform this "individualized miracle" of stopping the AA'er from drinking?

Are you, in fact, insane?

Or was Bill W. insane?

Comments

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 06:09

Delve into the mind(s) of the "alcoholic"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJuUFJYblcw&feature=channel&list=UL

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 06:43

"Seriously, can a "higher power" that is a door knob remove the "alcoholic's" character defects?"

It can if you are still insane, but that means that step 2 did not work even if you came to believe that it did

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 06:47

"However, the concept “Higher Power” is not clearly defined"

What Higher Power or Spiritual Entity, thrives on lies, misinformation, fear, dominating others, sexual predation, mind screwing, suicide and deception to name a few evils.

The clues are there for all to see.

"Many shall come claiming to know me, you shall judge them by their works, they are wolves in sheeps clothing"

or

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 14:03

"However, the concept “Higher Power” is not clearly defined. AA says that a Higher Power does not necessarily refer to God or religion, but it is described as a “Power greater than ourselves,” which means in essence, something non-human."

This is incorrect. It's an assumption that comes from narrow thinking.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 22:59

I would hardly describe it as narrow thinking, but I suppose you could have a human power greater than yourself like Claras 'wonderful' sponsor. He most definitley sounds like a HP, in Clara's imagination at least

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 21:02

No, of course you wouldn't describe that as narrow thinking. Your mind won't allow for it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

gigi

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 06:55

Lately, I question my sanity every time I click on the OPF.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 08:32

http://www.examiner.com/article/alcoholics-anonymous-a-critique-of-the-t...
https://www.examiner.com/article/alcoholics-anonymous-a-critique-of-the-...
https://www.examiner.com/article/alcoholics-anonymous-a-critique-of-the-...
https://www.examiner.com/article/alcoholics-anonymous-a-critique-of-the-...

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 09:01

.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 09:06

That's no fact, just opinion (critique). Take it or leave it. Take what you want and leave the rest. LOL!

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 09:11

at one time? Has god fixed you alkie?

Are you still insane?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 09:29

I am restored:

http://www.metrolyrics.com/restored-lyrics-j-moss.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXRQYV3Y-JQ
http://iamrestored.org
http://mormon.org/restoration
"Those who spread hate, are the doormen for evil. Don't bite the flamebait that leads to hate."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 06:12

alkie, you are admitting to being insane.

Can you share how god performed your personal miracle to restore your sanity?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 20:28

... an informal unscientific term ....

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 20:35

...a formal unscientific alcohol abuse "treatment" fellowship.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 20:42

... an international organization recognized by health care professionals.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 21:50

AA - recognized by ex "alcoholics" and ex "addicts" that now parade around as "treatment counselors"?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 05:08

Class room versus real world.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 09:45

yeah alkie, screw the class room right?

Let's go back to bleeding sick people to make them better. You are so funny!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 12:34

If you talk the talk, can you walk the walk?
Or is it.
If you talk the walk, can you walk the talk?

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 18:51

Looks like the whole gang with their leader, nice find alkie.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 09:19

Are you still insane?

Were you ever insane jonnijoy? If so, jonnijoy, how did you know you were insane?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 09:21

Are you still insane CLar?

If not, CLar, can you describe for me how god returned you to sanity? Did you feel her/him?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 13:04

I certainly believe that much of my behavior appeared to be crazy. I think people probably described me as such before. I do believe thast I have been restored to rationa thinking through AA.

I am going to be replying more "en masse" than I do usually since I am on a public computer and must share!

NoAA, I cannot find it now but I think you made a post where I feel that life is just perfect. It is in many ways, but just because I am sober, it doesn't mean that I don't have times of pain. Life is life. The difference is that I react and respond to those challenges differently now. I am not not stuffing emotion or trotting to the pub to forget about it. Those are huge differences between sober living and how I used to live.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 13:44

"I do believe thast I have been restored to rationa thinking through AA."

LOL don't you realise what you have just said, there is nothing rational about steppism, you are claiming that God is working personal miracles for you just because you indulged yourself and now go to cult meetings. That is not rational thought

"I am not not stuffing emotion or trotting to the pub to forget about it."

People don't just go to the pub to forget about things, people go for all sorts of reasons including companionship its normal.

Constanty sitting in cult meetings parroting the same old cult BS is abnormal

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Brett

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 18:47

you musta bin really fkd up when you was slamming down them 6 beers,

Brett

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 09:26

We know you haven't been to an AA meeting for 20+ years (according to you). Yet you remain sober?

Are you still insane beclit?

When god removed your insanity judge becket, was there a white light (similar to bill w's experience)?

btw, bill w's grandad had a similar type of god experience. All in the family, eh becket?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 13:13

You can jeer but you can't discuss. That's one working definition of impotence.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 13:48

Party time is here again, the life and soul has arrived

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 06:10

becket did not answer the question. Is he impotent?

Are you still insane becket?

If not, how did god restore you to the state of being sane?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 10:36

"In order to live the AA life, and receive the benefits of the AA life, Do you have to be insane?"

You have to believe that you are insane, otherwise you cannot really believe that a power greater than yourself (be it a door knob or whatever) could restore you to sanity.

Then again if you believe a door knob is a power greater than your self you may be insane, but like your average stepper, I'm not qualified to call anyone sane or insane

But if you believe you are insane, are you really insane. People constantly say that if you think you are insane you are NOT insane.

So was wilson really insane or just a lying thieving conman sexual predator?

I think step 2 is just like all the steps.....total meaningless BS. Not one of them stands up to any serious debate

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 13:15

NoAAUK: does the God you claim to believe in actually DO anything?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 13:47

No............... you have a spirit guide

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 13:57

Why is it so difficult for you to answer a question? Do you feel like you're losing ground if you reveal something to someone who does not abhor AA?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 23:08

The spirit guide sorts out any (non stepper cult) guidence you may need God is too busy running the universe and things to be concerned with every small detail of everbodys life. Private Joe Bloggs does not go to Field Marshall what his name, when his boots have worn out, he goes to CQMS thingamajig

Spirit Guides are for guiding people, that why they are called 'spirit guides'

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 23:38

Is this your most convincing argument?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 14:00

duplicate

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 10:35

Argument:

By ordering someone to attend AA, a court is implicitly conceding that the defendant is insane. Thus, any defendant ordered by the court to AA should be found not guilty by reason of insanity.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 10:41

Not a lawyer but have studied a bit of Law for Accountancy Qualifications, I would say that was a valid point of Law.

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 10:51

It's a valid point of logic, but unfortunately the odds are slim of any American court agreeing with this argument.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 18:55

Luv these circular arguments.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 11:30

I agree there is a slim chance of using the insanity plea in pennyW's post.

But, for arguments sake, let's say the question is before a jury. The insanity defense has been used successfully in the past. Most of us know this.

A person charged with DUI in the states has a choice of jury trial.

Why would a jury not find for the defendant? What would the defendant's attorney argue? What would the state's argument against the insanity defense be?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 12:23

Well, the counter argument would be that someone can be insane for purposes of AA, but not insane for legal purposes. Essentially, they'd say that AA can define insanity however it wishes, but that the law does not have to adopt that definition. My argument is that the law implicitly endorses AA's definition whenever it sentences people to the cult. In short, I think courts should have to stand by AA dogma if they are going to subject people to it. They shouldn't have it both ways, taking what they want and leaving the rest.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 12:34

So who defines insanity? Doctors?

Can I put a true believer doctor (AA'er) on the stand and ask him if "alcoholics" are "insane".

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 14:34

"So who defines insanity? Doctors?"

For purposes of criminal law, usually the legislature.

One might counter that it is a constitutional violation of due process of law to deny a person the legal benefits of a finding of insanity while at the same time coercing him to participate in a program designed for the insane.

Again, I highly doubt this argument would work, but I do wish courts would think about this before sending people to the cult.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 11:39

http://www.fightmypadui.com/newsletters/traffic-law-duidwi/not-guilty-by...

"Although a defense of not guilty to drunk driving by reason of insanity may seem a bit far-fetched, this defense has worked in some cases. If a defendant asserts a defense of insanity, he is essentially asking the court to declare him legally insane."

"Whether a defendant can successfully defend a drunk driving charge on the grounds of insanity will depend on how his or her state defines insanity. In states that follow what is called a McNaughten standard, the defendant must show that he or she suffered from brain damage caused by alcoholism and that the brain damage resulted in the defendant being unable to distinguish right from wrong."

"In states following an irresistible impulse standard, the defendant must show that alcoholism caused such an addiction that the defendant could not resist a compulsion to drink. Unfortunately, the defense will be difficult to prove because the defendant will also have to show that at the same time he or she suffered from a compulsion to drive that could not be resisted."

"The defense of not guilty by reason of insanity is a defense that will be difficult to establish in most cases."

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

istj04

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 18:11

Taking the wind out of the verbage of "Step 2" is easy! Just ask WHO "came to believe", and WHAT "higher" power? Or is the reference to a "Power Greater Then Ourselves", in reference to. . . . the weather (those who have been through a weather-based natural disaster would agree with this!), or perhaps its the planet (those who have been through a plant-based NATURAL DISASTER would agree with this!). So WHAT exactly is meant here? Or do these words require a bunch of mental MASTURBATION and gymnastics, because they DO NOT "mean what they say", NOR "say what they mean"? If that is the case, then why waste mental effort on them at all?

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 19:37

" . . . plant-based NATURAL DISASTER . . . "

"WHAT exactly is meant here? Or do these words require a bunch of mental MASTURBATION and gymnastics, because they DO NOT "mean what they say", NOR "say what they mean"? If that is the case, then why waste mental effort on them at all?"

:-D

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 23:19

God has removed all becket's typing errors (Not) because becket is 'stepper extraordinaire'……. doesn't even have to work wilsons step 12 to guarantee her sobriety or go to meetings.........Wonder Woman stepper becket...... or is it Superman stepper becket.............what colour is your cape wonder (super) stepper becket?

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 23:39

What typing errors, dear?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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