Rainbow here!

rainbow's picture
Submitted by rainbow on Wed, 06/27/2012 - 23:30

Forums:

Hi everybody! I QUIT the 12stomp for good on Mothers Day of this year. I'd been in & out of that self-defeating, soul-killing, negative cult on & off for 23 years. I began really questioning the whole dis-organization about 2 years ago. When I found the Orange Papers, I knew I had not been wrong in my feelings about the CULT. Then I found blamethenile videos, morerevealed, leavingaa, massive's radio show....and the rest is history. I will never set foot into another meeting again. Taking back my power has brought me REAL happiness, joy & FREEDOM. THANK YOU ALL. Glad to be here. Peace :)

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 00:58

"What we say depends on what you contradictory steppers are actually saying at the time in question."

So your truth is a movable feast?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 22:36

Clara
how are you perceiving anger in Rainbows writing. Rainbow isn't angry. Her writing is simply exposing the insanity of AA & that AA just does not make any sense. As you well know Wilson had absolutely no qualifications or credentials to do anything. He just needed to fill up a book & he needed a book to sell so he could have a living & a home. So Wilson filled his book with anecdotal & insane & dangerous psycho babble. Wilson needed a group of people to buy his book & to recruit new book buyers so he brain washed the downtrodden & desperate addict in order to earn a living. The BB's & Wilson's anecdotal advise is desperately unqualified insanity & nothing more. That people have a sane reaction to AA's insanity isn't evidence of anger it is just a sane reaction. You keep playing that anger card even when no one is angry. And if someone is angry in regards to being conned @ some time in their life by AA & Wilson that is justifiable anger & there isn't anything wrong with that. I have no idea what is missing from you & your soul & being. I don't think your problem was alcohol. I do not know what your problems are but something is missing from you & for whatever sad reason you wanted to belong to something like AA. Something just isn't right about you besides being a brain washed cult member. That is who cults convert & keep people with something wrong to begin with. Although Wilson lies & claims without any qualifications whatsoever that alcohol addiction is an incurable disease & although addicts are vulnerable & therefore easy to manipulate they eventually wake up from the brain washing & escape & regain their own minds & persona's. This has not happened to you yet. It could happen though. I've known as brain washed AA supporters who were hard core & they eventually deprogram & quit also. Brain washed cult members just lose any relationship with the truth about any & every thing & they are adept @ twisting the truth. This is a common symptom of AA members & that angry card is a common AA tactic & lie. You may wake up or not, whatever happens, happens.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 01:49

"As you well know" "As you well know" "As you well know"

This is known as serial audacity of the impudent kind.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 15:07

"This is known as serial audacity of the impudent kind."

Thats not stepper talk is it, we can't use that playing Bullshit Bingo can we?

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 17:24

It doesn't qualify. It's a sidebar.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 02:35

"I have no idea what is missing from you & your soul & being. I don't think your problem was alcohol. I do not know what your problems are but something is missing from you & for whatever sad reason you wanted to belong to something like AA. "

THANK GOD/God/god/heaven/goodness THERE'S A DOCTOR IN THE HOUSE!!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 15:11

"sad reason you wanted to belong to something like AA. "

Are you or are you not pro stepper cult?

I wish you would just stick to telling us all to 'fuck off' then we would know, without any doubt, where we stand

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 17:27

"Are you or are you not pro stepper cult?"

As far as I know, an individual cannot qualify as a cult.

I will use the term "fuck off" wherever and whenever it applies. I don't use it indiscriminately.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 00:27

I said are you PRO stepper cult or not........not are you a CULT or not. You need to read and pay attention to all the words in a sentance before rushing forward to type your favourite words.....'fuck off'

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 00:51

I speak English. Without punctuation your remarks suggest that English is a second language for you. Your spelling is awful. But I digress ...

You want to know if I favor or support Alcoholics Anonymous? I do not view the program as one of a cult. With few exceptions, people can leave any time they choose to. I am basing my opinion on what AA was like when I went to meetings 20-30 years ago. Whatever it is today, it does not resemble AA to me.

I am anti-coercion.
I am anti-lay diagnostics.
I am anti-forcing the narrow definitions of a higher power.
I am anti-abuse vis a vis sexually predatory behavior.
I am anti-ostracism when someone does not fall in line.
I am anti-prospect hunting.
I am anti-small minds.

I am anti-lies and fabrication of what allegedly happens in AA.
I am anti-referencing statistics about the failure rate of AA when no true numbers exist.
I am anti-denigration when it comes to people who are looking for answers in AA. It is their right.
I am anti-guilt-by-association when it comes to crimes committed in and around AA by those who are criminals first and alcohol dependent second.

I am pro-stepper, pro Buddhist, pro-SMART, pro-atheist, pro-protesting abuses. I am pro- many things as long as people respect boundaries. It can't be done on this forum. I can't do it. This forum is a dead end, it's like a barren woman from whom no life will ever come. It's just a place to park it and bitch. Why, when there are opportunities to be productive? AA haters are like the Viet Cong. You set people up to think a real conversation will take place and the next thing we know we're hanging upside down from a palm tree. It's hateful, it's dishonest, it's dishonorable. But that is the tone here. No one can supersede it. It is as ingrained as the most durable and restrictive religious dogma that can be found anywhere.

I keep searching for pockets of intellect. I don't claim to be a genius; you people just make me look like one.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 10:06

I have been a dumbass from a very early age- 8 months later, my mother gave birth to me.

gigi

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 10:24

I have a feeling that you're not a dumbass, Dan. I bet you're a helluva lot of fun.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 12:40

Was she a dumbass for making such a choice?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 21:01

I think I was just making an attention seeking type of dumb comment for fun Becket. Hurtful to me that you would turn it into a subliminal abortion question.

Anyway, I'm surprised you noticed I was even here.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 21:28

It wasn't a subliminal abortion question, dan. She could have given birth and given you away or sold you or left you somewhere. Maybe a good thing she didn't do any of those things, eh?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 16:51

rainbow, are you an atheist or are you just mad at God?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

gigi

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 17:36

Shit, Becket. That's not your way of telling Rainbow to read "We Agnostics" is it?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 21:31

gigi, I haven't even read "We Agnostics" in decades. I am not pushing AA. I advocate for wide choice when it comes to fixing the problem of dependency. My view happens to include AA but it also includes biofeedback, religion of one's choice, pursuit of physical health, smart nutrition, and any of the "treatment" methodologies that are currently available. So no, this is not my way of telling Rainbow anything. It is my way of asking her whether or not she is an atheist.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 21:39

Are you claiming that the "religion of one's choice" has anything to to with Alcohol Addiction, Alcohol Abuse or "treatment" for these DSMIV-TR classifications?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 22:09

Yes, JR Harris, I am certainly suggesting that the "religion of one's choice" can have an effect on recovery from alcohol dependence. Although you apparently have no experience with the desperation that can come from dependence on booze, you might be able to understand that there are actually people on this earth who believe in a God who will help them find the discipline and resolve to quit drinking. If you are an atheist you can scoff if you like, because you could never fathom this kind of thinking. But there are many people who believe there is an entity in the universe who can hear a plea for help and provide an environment of comfort and aid so that they can put themselves right again. You don't have to believe it yourself, but don't you think it's time you allowed for others to have their own beliefs?

It does not matter if there is no God there. The willingness to believe it is enough for most. It's called faith. Faith may be ridiculous to you, but atheism is unthinkable to many, many people. So yes, I think the religion of one's choice should be respected, whether or not they are DSM IV-TR alcoholics or just garden variety drunks.

What's your problem with that?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 06:19

"But there are many people who believe there is an entity in the universe who can hear a plea for help and provide an environment of comfort and aid so that they can put themselves right again."

But with some exceptions, notably the Jews in Auchwitz

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 08:27

Why don't you ask your God why he allowed six million Jews to be turned to ash during the war? Why are you asking me to answer for him? You're not a Christian but you have admitted onscreen that you believe in God. Ask him.

As shitty as your life seems to sound, you must be able to comprehend the notion that sometimes God's answer is "no".

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 09:05

I don't have a God, there is just God and there are also door knobs

Maybe God didn't allow 6 million jews to be turned to ash during the war, maybe it was us.

I am not a Christian, I do not believe this life is a test, with paradise or internal damnation at the end of it. It can't be, we would need to all live the same life if that were to be the case. And eternal damnation is a bit OTT even for the worst people who have ever lived. I believe this earthly life is a learning process. Maybe God allows evil (like steppism) to exist so we learn something from the experience of it for real spiritual growth (not just stepper cult speak BS). Maybe it was ourselves together with our spirit guide who already planned our lives before we reincarnated back to earth on this present incarnation. Maybe all people plan the evil they will experience before they arrive on this earth, we ourselves have agreed what we are to suffer before we are born, it is not inflicted by God. Maybe God does not interfere and what is happening to us was meant to happen to us. I do not know the answers, I was not meant to on this earthly life.

I have done evil myself in this life, maybe I was meant to, I can't give you such answers, all I know is that steppism is a evil lying scaremongering predatory cult and no message from God

"As shitty as your life seems to sound, you must be able to comprehend the notion that sometimes God's answer is "no".

I would suggest 'especially' to self-serving, self-obsessed steppers

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 02:09

"I am not pushing AA. I advocate for wide choice when it comes to fixing the problem of dependency"

What about 'not telling people to fuck off' you don't advocate that do you?

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 02:39

"What about 'not telling people to fuck off' you don't advocate that do you?"

I realize you're linguistically challenged, so I'm going to ask you to please explain what this "sentence" means. Thanks in advance.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 06:24

"What about 'not telling people to fuck off' you don't advocate that do you?"

"I realize you're linguistically challenged, so I'm going to ask you to please explain what this "sentence" means. Thanks in advance."

You seem to be telling people to 'fuck off' a lot more than advocating for wide choice when it comes to fixing the problem of dependency

Thanks for the Thanks

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 08:28

If it seems that way, it is only because I am met with such hostility and idiocy.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

flannigan

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 10:22

AA as a treatment for alcoholism is certainly not evidence based. The evidence says AA is no more effective in helping alcoholics overcome their addiction than no treatment. I glad you enjoy AA, but that does not make it an effective means of treating addiction.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 10:27

Flan, we have to agree to disagree. I know many people that have found solutions to their acoholism in AA. I know few of them are here, but there are plenty of uscess stories in every room.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 10:33

If you kill off all of the ones that have bad "unsuccessful stories" in AA, you will only hear the "success stories", it's common sense....

Suicides in AA http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/840

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 16:52

You're actually suggesting that all the AA failures are dead? Are you insane?

Never mind.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 11:13

Some people who were going to stop drinking anyway just like cult religion, especially the control freaks and sexual predators, stepper cults provide their victims.

Other people who were going to stop anyway, are scared to leave the stepper cults because of the scaremongering jails institutions or death lie.

I realise I have said this before but because you stepper recruiters use the same lies and ludicrous claims over and over, we have to use the same counters over and over, to rescue victims from your cult

Reptition is the name of the game in steppism or opposing it

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 12:38

NOAAUK: What color is your cape?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 12:41

ORANGE

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 13:32

Leapt any tall buildings in a single bound lately, NoAAUK?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 14:43

Not recently, but I'm wearing my orange underpants on the outside of my trousers

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 16:52

No doubt.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

flannigan

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 10:59

I am happy for you and the ones that found solutions to their alcoholism in AA, but that is not the definition of evidence based. AA is no more effective than no treatment. You can disagree all you want but that won't change reality.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 12:32

It doesn't matter if it meets with a definition or not. My point is that I HAVE seen cases where "evidence-based" things don't work, either. I also have asked SMART for their success ratios, and they don't even keep them.

When I hear "evidence-based" whatever, what I see are people that want assurances and absolutes that something will work for them. You don't have that.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 12:19

"I also have asked SMART for their success ratios, and they don't even keep them."

SMART is full of steppers and other obsessive recovery gurus or it is over here. If you want an alternative to steppism don't go to SMART UK, chances are any meeting you go to will be facilitated by a stepper in my experience

And if you hate AA, i wouldn't advise MM either chances are they will censor any anti aa speak as well whether you need stepper cult deprograming to successfully moderate or not.

This whole game is totally screwed thanks to Bill and Doctor Bob

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 14:12

flannigan, what gave you the idea we were arguing evidence based. You seem to want to dismiss that Clara has all the evidence she needs, her sobriety. Since when did we say AA is a treatment plan? It is part of my treatment plan.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 12:47

"When I hear "evidence-based" whatever, what I see are people that want assurances and absolutes that something will work for them. You don't have that."

Have you got evidence that God speaks to you in step 11? Do you write things down like Frank Buchaman and his groupers did? Can you show us what God has told you to do today?

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 15:18

I have no clue what Buchaman and his group did. I was never there. God speaks to me in many ways, NoAA, and I feel His presence in my life. I can't explain that to people that can't, won't and don't want to believe in a god.

If you went to a doctor and he told you that you had cancer, but here was this study that showed promise. But you tell the doctor that you won't undergo treatment if he cannot give you assurances that you will be cancer free as a result, then you've made a choice. After all, the good doctor isn't going to be able to tell you that while it worked for this and that person, it absolutely will work for you, too. This is what I hear when people say things like "evidence-based" and all the other mumbo jumbo that basically means they want something else to do all the work for them. i know people that have survived brain cancer. My father wasn't one of them, yet he tried all the same things that had proven results. Go figure.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 15:54

So what does God say to you? Go out and recruit more bemused vulnerable people for the stepper cult and I will keep you sober?

So you feel his presence in your life. God is a he then and he has decided to enter your life because you are a disciple of lying thieving scaremonger sexual predator and conman Bill W and the child battering Doctor.

I do not believe God has anything to do with the lying scaremongering predatory cult of steppism nor any of its self serving promotors, the presence you feel if any is satan

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 16:08

"This is what I hear when people say things like "evidence-based" and all the other mumbo jumbo that basically means they want something else to do all the work for them"

You don't want evidence based because you havent got any evidence.

"but here was this study that showed promise."

AA doesn't show promise

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

"I can't explain that to people that can't, won't and don't want to believe in a god."

I very much believe in God, thats why I know you are a follower of satans cult. God no more speaks to you than he told the Yorkshire ripper to 'kill prostitues'

The Bibles says "Many will come claiming to know me, they are wolves in sheeps clothing, you will know them by their work"

I know you steppers by your work, you are liars and fearmongers, many are control freaks and sexual predators.........you are very much 'wolves in sheeps clothing

Your claims that God speaks to you in many ways are NOT believed by me

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 15:23

NoAAUK, please read your history of AA and Frank. Bill W. ran from Frank like he had the plague. JR Harris is not a honest source for information. But if you enjoy twisting the truth to suit your agenda, JR Harris is the person you need in your camp.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 15:24

Do you do the same thing?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 15:28

Yes I do, JR. But when I see that a link is 70 years old, I am inclined to think its usefulness has outgrown itself.
Get what I mean my disingenuous friend.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 15:32

Make up your mind Danny, the Big Book was written in 1936 and published in 1939 and hasn't been updated in over 70 years.......

Are you having racing thoughts or something?............

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 15:55

Oooooh, JR is having another one of his temper tantrums. JR, try this, take a few deep breaths and stop reacting, to me.
You are writing faster then your brain can rationally think.
Go back and re-read what I have posted. Think about what I have posted and then if you wish, comment again. But please, only if you use those wonderful discretionary communication skills you have, but don't use a lot. Ok?

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

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