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I am starting to believe I have a "choice". I am choosing never to hear another drunk log. To live my life around happy, supportive people that don't tell me that I will commit suicide if I stop attending their cult.
Mon, 06/25/2012 - 08:53
Its good that you are believing in your self. I did the same thing & believing in myself is the best decision I've ever made. You will reach a plateau where you look back & won't be able to believe you ever listened to billshit or the boneheads who preach & parrot it. Wilson's rap was & is unqualified & detrimental to one's well being, mental, emotional & physical. AA is a bad stop. Good to move on to health & sanity. Away from all the noise & nonsense.
Wed, 06/27/2012 - 01:44
And when will you be leaving the forum, patti? When will you be modeling your own advice to this newcomer?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 17:20
So what has leaving this forum got to do with leaving the stepper cult?
You have also said you don't give a screw what other people do or words to that effect. Why don't you let those who want to leave the stepper death cult, leave and those who want to give them encouragement to leave, encourage them to leave?
While Clara just constantly parrots stepper cult BS possibly to try a last desperate attempt at cult indoctrination for those who are about to leave. You becket just seem to be in a constant state of inner conflict. Its almost as if deep down inside you wish you were in the Anti AA movement.
You don't have to remain in the stepper cult just because you believe in God. Steppism is nothing to do with God.
I think you desperately want to change sides but are afraid to for some reason.
Nobody on our side is going laugh if you come over to us, thats what the OP is about, cult deprograming and escape. You could help people for a change, instead of the insults and whatnot.
And I'm not taking the piss here, I think you have grave doubts about steppism yourself, but really daren't admit it
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 18:28
patti: "Good to move on to health & sanity. Away from all the noise & nonsense."
becket: "And when will you be leaving the forum, patti? When will you be modeling your own advice to this newcomer?"
Tell me you are not so dense that you don't understand this exchange.
It makes no difference to me if people leave AA. It doesn't matter if they gripe and whine and wail about their experiences. But when they make shit up to support a point they're trying to make, or they point a finger of shame and guilt at someone who is not to blame for their misery, that's just pure-d bullshit. And all this whining - you tell me, noaauk: where has it taken anybody? What has it achieved? It has allowed people to bellyache and wallow in how "unfair" this life is. Shit. Some are more motivated than others, but the message they spread is contaminated with rage and resentment and fear and paranoia. If all those things were removed from their recounting of their experiences and they were able to sanely suggest methods of recovery other than AA without all the drama and hyperbole, people might listen.
I'm an independent. I don't want what you people are selling or giving away or demanding that others investigate or any of it. The putrification of souls on this forum is directly proportional to the putrification AA is charged with. I sobered up in AA. I know the drill. I have an understanding of the program that has been useful to several people and can still be called into service. I don't preach any dogma. And each person is different. Some are going to die drunk, and that's not on anybody but themselves. I believe most people can sober up and have a fairly rewarding and happy life without booze. I have no reservations about anything I learned in AA. I never experienced the ridiculously outrageous behaviors that have been described here. God was not foreign to me, so I was comfortable with that idea. I don't have an ax to grind because someone made the mistake of telling me I wasn't being honest, because if that ever happened I'd have been right there to explain to them how and why they were wrong.
If I have any grave doubts about AA they would pertain directly to what it has devolved into, with the 90 in 90 and the jails, institutions or death routine. No one should have that as their mantra; it's a negative while trying to find a positive - it makes no sense. If I had seen 13th stepping going on I would have stopped a meeting to confront those involved. I just don't sit still for bullshit, and I don't have respect for "decorum" when there is overt or covert abuse going on. This is why I have such trouble understanding why so many people stay in AA for so long, even after they say they've been exposed to this kind of shit. Why have they tolerated it? Doing nothing, or waiting until there's a fair environment to address it, are approaches to problem solving that are foreign to me.
In short, no thanks. I come here because it's like Colonel Tom Parker's chickens dancing on a hotplate - it's silly and offensive and curious. Who can avert their eyes when creeping through a 20-car pileup on the highway?
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 19:29
go to a meeting & step up to the 13th stepping & confront those involved. Just be advised & be prepared for the consequences. You will be confronting some violent & angry fanatics & some very dangerous people. The AA fanatics are a dangerous crew. A lot of people in the rooms are scary. Especially the fanatics.
Mon, 06/25/2012 - 09:11
I think if you have the confidence and don't need the support of a group then you are better off getting away from the madness of a 12 step group. It gives you somewhere to go for a bit when you are trying to break the habit but long term involvement makes most people turn into a strange Wilson groupie. There are plenty of better ways to spend your time! Most people leave after a while leaving the cranks behind. This leaves 12 step groups very unbalanced and full of madman and wannabe gurus. I'm sure your sponsor told you praying was the solution along with a higher power- great idea for this century , talk to yourself and put your recovery in the hands of something that does not exist.
Wed, 06/27/2012 - 01:46
"talk to yourself and put your recovery in the hands of something that does not exist."
I find that a bit on the rude side considering there are many people in and out of AA who are believers.
Don't you have a harem to tame or a forum to manage?
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 09:01
and becket says: "there are many people in and out of AA who are believers"
Are these the same believers that believed they were insane (step 2)?
The same insane believers that believe they are now sane because god did the "miracles performed here" thingy?
Choice, that is the topic. Are you insane? Is AA for you? Take what you want and leave the rest?
Today is 7/2/12 people, is your choice a hokey religion found in a book published in 1939?
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®http://www.expaa.org/http://bereanresearch.com/http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMShttp://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 10:53
mfc66uk, if you could take just a second to hear your own advice, I think your brain would explode from the Duhhhh....concussion.
Here you are preaching about breaking away, letting go bla bla bla...and you go ahead start another web site RecoveringfromRecovery to promote more negative propaganda about AA.
Try this, practice silence.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 17:32
Again your stepper arguments are totally illogical. You don't have to break away from anything else just because you advocate breaking away from the stepper cult.
Why because you advise people to break away from the stepper cult should you yourself break away from any Anti stepper website, shouldn't you logically be creating as many anti stepper websites as possible to achieve you new goal?
You people talk nonsense even when you are not parroting cult speak.
Its bad steppism, it seriously unbalances even its most enthusiastic practitioners......weird cult
And I'm not throwing insults here, you people are seriously messed up
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 17:56
Did ya get it all out NoAA, do ya feel purged. I hope so, because this verbal tit for tat merry go round is beginning to make me feel nauseated.
You take care of yourself, ya hear.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 10:27
classic AA cult techniques of control & manipulation. Somehow in your mind you think you are belittling & controlling NoAAUk by attempting to demean him for writing his anti AA posts. Trish this only works in the rooms on less than 95% of the people who attend. Then it only works for a time, the smarter & more independent briefly, the more vulnerable & fragile & desperate a few months, less than a year or a few years. As you well know from attending meetings only a small group of you keep coming back for years or forever. Any meeting I ever attended had less than 3 old timers & lifers. Writing against AA & its many, many lies is healthy for self & others. Its indicates one has their own mind & the ability to think critically & for self. It indicates one is healthy enough mentally, emotionally & physically to be their own person. Any adult that can not be their own person & believe in self needs to find a way to change & solve those problems. Many do & then flee from AA & other cults. Some then make the choice to warn others of AA's lies & of AA truths. Fails miserably over 95% of the time & of course it fails its nothing more than a fake religion that lies about faith healing. The truth is exposed regarding Wilson & his immoral behavior & actions, the lies, the cons, the exploiting, the robbing & stealing, the adultery, the abuses & how he was nothing more than an unemployed drunk with absolutely no credentials or qualifications to be advising or 'suggesting" to any one @ any time what to do, think or feel about anything. That tiny, tiny less than 5% that AA supposedly helps already had their minds made up to quit an alcohol addiction. Attending AA & becoming brain washed had nothing to do with their accomplishment to quit a destructive habit & dependency. They are brain washed into believing that the cult & Wilson "saved their life's" or that God or an HP suddenly stepped into their life's & choices in 24 hour increments & decided to actively save them. Its a shame that the cult members do not believe in themselves & take the credit for stopping their addictions. All the many, many people who have been damaged & harmed by AA & Anons are remembered here & have advocates & a voice finally due to Oranges work & efforts. And due to others Peele education, qualifications & work. AA & Wilson are a disgrace & an embarrassment & its just the truth.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 11:46
Mon, 06/25/2012 - 09:51
"Have you tried other meetings? Praying more? Working with others and doing more service? " I need to get myself back. Get some self worth and stop believing I'm defeated and that only my spiritual condition can keep me sober.
Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:32
You are joking, right SPK? "Trying other meetings" (which espouse the same bullshit!), "Doing more service", means that one is not focusing on oneself that HAS THE FUCKING ADDICTION! You really think that focusing "on others" gets YOU out of the addiction that YOU got YOU into? Seriously.
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 17:36
Steppism is a negative spiritual condition designed to keep you in the stepper cult, sobriety is irrelavent, its staying in and recruiting more member for the stepper cult that is the only point.
Although this then makes other predatory activities available to the grouper as a reward for membership of the stepper cult
Mon, 09/03/2012 - 00:14
Mon, 06/25/2012 - 12:45
can only tell you what worked for me. found a good therapist who immediately told me she would not tell me anything I felt was wrong. she really helped me. she validated that AA & the anons are lunatics & to put them on my pay no mind list as soon as I possible could accomplish it. i needed help to recover from AA's control freakness & mind fuck. its different for every one. she also advised that I be quiet for awhile & to not listen to any one or anything but myself. to understand I am my own best friend & that I will look out for myself & my best interests. the quiet part is lovely. never again in my life will I listen to unqualified people tell what to think & do or how to feel & think & what to say. never again in my life will I let an unqualified lunatic tell me my thoughts are wrong or that I should not express them. I belong to other support groups that have nothing to do with addiction. They are real support groups with healthy people. There is no control involved just healthy support. I'm not sure what will work for you. But I think you will be fine & will find your way on your own & believe in your self. Trust your self & your gut. And there are qualified people like Stanton Peele. He is educated & ethical not just an unemployed drunk & mental case & con man like Wilson. There are other healthier addiction support groups based upon qualified methods instead of Wilson's insanity & fake religion & terrorizing addicts into staying for life. AA is just a weird little cult & weird little world. You will be fine & you have self worth you quit & realized you have a choice. Its your life not AA's or Wilson's.
Wed, 06/27/2012 - 01:51
"AA & the anons are lunatics & to put them on my pay no mind list as soon as I possible could accomplish it."
I see that was money flushed down the crapper, since you insist on paying more than your share of "mind" to what you consider to be lunacy. Keep trying, patti. One day you will achieve your goal and be gone from the OPF.
Oh, and SPK77: you had choices all along. You just relinquished them. For what?
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 17:44
"Keep trying, patti. One day you will achieve your goal and be gone from the OPF."
There you go again with your screwed up logic. Why does patti need to or want to leave the OPF because she left the stepper cult? You people can't even make sense when you are not parroting cult speak.
Why does patti have to leave anything else because she has left the stepper cult. Logically she now has time to be starting other things now she is not wasting time parroting cult indoctrination or trying to recruit more members for the stepper cult
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 18:35
There are AAs and Alanons here, as well as some who have just jumped off the boat. patti's therapist claims "that AA & the anons are lunatics & to put them on my pay no mind list as soon as I possible could accomplish it." She is in the midst of some here. If she is to pay no mind to AAs and/or AlAnons per her therapist, she's doing a totally shitty job of it. If she could practice ignoring AAs and AlAnons, they'd be happy, she'd be happy, and her therapist would be happy.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 08:05
how have you figured that you know how I feel? Another AA mind reader & control freak. Nothing more. Paying no mind to AA means to stop listening, practicing or believing or being controlled by any & all AA or Anon psycho babble. Which I've obviously accomplished. I choice to communicate that AA & the Anons are unqualified psycho babble & are dangerous & harmful cults. Nothing wrong with that except in your, Trisha, Alkie & Clara's minds. And we keep telling you over & over we do not want what you have & definitely not what is in your head & being. Nothing wrong with that either. You have a warped mind & you are just a typical twisted stepper. And there is something very wrong with that & with steppers. Over 95 % reject AA & its members.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 10:57
Don't know or care how you feel. Am not trying to "give" you anything, as in what I have. Just sweeping up the trash, that's all.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 14:02
In your mind Becket.
Mon, 06/25/2012 - 14:58
Thank you for your support. I really need to hear it...I am already feeling better and free.
Mon, 06/25/2012 - 21:16
and have found the forum helpful in terms of having my negative feelings and thoughts about aa validated. The arguments and counter arguments made by the anti-aa to the pro-aa expose the flaws in stepper logic in a way I never could. I often felt bamboozled by stepper logic; trapped.
Tue, 06/26/2012 - 22:27
I don't know if you have seen this....http://cultresearch.org/2012/03/presentation-at-survivors-of-institution...
Thu, 06/28/2012 - 02:33
Wed, 06/27/2012 - 07:09
Free, I have never understood this out of anyone. There are no locks on the doors, and the only pople made to go to AA are generally mandated by the Courts. If you want to get or stay sober, even AA says there are many paths to recovery. Just stay on one if that is what you want. My sponsor never said that I would die if I didn't go to meetings. What he did tell me was that I was more than likely unable to ever drink safely again as I never really had. But what I have discovered is that many people on these forums that bash AA really are just covering up a desire to drink again. Instead of just confronting that and saying so, they have to bash a fellowship.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Wed, 06/27/2012 - 07:21
Report from the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University states that 44% of the people in Alcoholics Anonymous are sent by the court system. http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1760
Please take some diversity classes at the University of Texas El Paso (UTOP), many of the doctors are Muslim.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Wed, 06/27/2012 - 08:12
I wished that Susan Foster had supplied her research findings to corroborate that 40% of the current population of AA comes from the court system. I just don't see it, IMO.
I found a diagnosis in this article that has been argued vehemently by anti-aa'ers. That addiction and alcoholism is a disease. JR, I found this to be interesting, that you would use this article for your point. I guess you can always find a way to compromise your advocacy standards, if you think it will allow you to take a swipe at your adversary. In case you forgot JR, you don't think addiction is a disease, remember now?
Please show us where the National Center On Addiction And Substance Abuse collected their data for this finding, in this article. I tried but to no avail.
(Excerpts from article)
"The report from the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University states that U.S. doctors are unprepared to intervene or treat addiction, even though there have been significant advances in the science regarding the disease."
"I think that the real important finding here that hasn't been made clear before is the vast disconnect between what we know about addiction and how to prevent and treat it ... and how the medical profession has largely neglected addressing this disease for a variety of reasons,” said Susan Foster, vice president and director of policy research at the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse."
Wed, 06/27/2012 - 08:20
“Forty-four percent come from the criminal justice system, which tells you about our failure to treat this problem until it emerges into serious social consequences,” Foster said.
Fri, 06/29/2012 - 09:29
I understand where you got the link. What I want and can't find right now, is the study or research that allowed Susan Foster to make a statement that, "40% of AA's population came from the courts".
Please in the future pay attention to what I am asking for, thanks in advance.
Wed, 06/27/2012 - 09:01
Free & SPK77
I'm sure you both are recognizing Clara plugging AA. And she is doing that AA thing again & telling you how others feel on this forum. Another AA mind reader. The truth is Clara does not know how we feel about drinking again. The other truth is that we are not anti AA because we are covering up a desire to drink again. We are anti AA because it is a warped mind fuck that doesn't have anything to do with quitting an addiction. Also because AA is an unhealthy environment & cult all about mind control & brain washing & has nothing to do with quitting an addiction. AA is just a con that Wilson copied from Buchman & he did the same as Buchman & created a group of people to manipulate to earn a living. Wilson was mentally ill & immoral as we all well know. A liar, a thief, a conniver, a manipulator, an exploiter, an abuser & adulterer. Just your typical uneducated & unqualified grifter preying upon the vulnerable & downtrodden addicts in order to earn a living, get laid & be the man. As we all well know nothing healthy or productive could be created by a piece of shit like Wilson. Read Clara s desperate attempts to somehow control how you feel about AA & writing that we members should just confront our desire to drink again & stop bashing the fellowship. One of the consequences of being a full of shit, manipulative, insane & mind fucking cult is that people will be bashing the cult. AA did the crime & they also have to do the time & get bashed. Its on AA that they get bashed. After reading Clara s post & typical stepper lies aren't you happy you got your mind back & left. You will both be fine. You do not need AA to chose sobriety. Remember the majority of people exposed to AA reject it & stay clean no problem. You don't have to Wilson chant or parrot to be sober. Best wishes.
Thu, 06/28/2012 - 14:20
Good job making sure you guys are all on the same page, patti. No diversion allowed. Here's how it goes down. Oh, and "best wishes". Nice touch.
Thu, 06/28/2012 - 21:45
Sarcasm is the lowest form of communication & wit Becket.
Thu, 06/28/2012 - 22:56
"Sarcasm: the last refuge of modest and chaste-souled people when the privacy of their soul is coarsely and intrusively invaded." -Fyodor Dostoevsky
Fri, 06/29/2012 - 01:09
I would say a lie is worse than sarcasm, patti.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 14:06
Know thy cult and leader. Neither has anything to do with the truth. Both documented liars.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 08:06
Ex steppers & anti AA's are on the same page Becket. You know that.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 10:58
I thankfully don't know a goddamn thing that you claim to know, patti.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 14:07
You are lying again.
Fri, 06/29/2012 - 01:25
"Remember the majority of people exposed to AA reject it & stay clean no problem."
You are saying that the alleged 95% of the people who are ever exposed to AA, and who choose not to stay with the program, stay clean no problem??!! This is an outrageous lie. You make this shit up as you go along, patti, and it's thoroughly dishonest and despicable. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum who would love to see some evidence that this claim is true. If it were true there would be no treatment centers in this country, no AA meetings, no need for the Orange Papers, and God/god would be on permanent hiatus.
Once again, please provide statistics to back up your shit. I don't care if you think that sounds like an order - anyone here with half a brain would ask you to do the same. If you can't then just stop lying. Stop it.
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 18:34
"I'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum who would love to see some evidence that this claim is true"
All 5 people I know who stopped drinking did so without any stepper cult or treatment (is there a difference?) Everybody I know who has stopped drugs did so without stepper cult and/or treatment
Of course there is no need for treatment centres. Treatment has been proved to be no better than no treatment at all. When treatment is telling people they are powerless over a substance and are in the grip of an incurable disease, what use is treatment....how can you treat an incurable disease? Who's turn is it on the shared brain cell tonight?, yours Clara's or Trish K's......if its yours, find it then try and think, not parrot, think about what Ive just said
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 18:51
Five people do not represent the entirety of the 95% of the people who are ever exposed to AA. patti says, "Remember the majority of people exposed to AA reject it & stay clean no problem." I simply challenged her to provide some corroboration for this outrageous and ridiculous claim. There is no study, there is no proof, and patti certainly does not have her finger on the pulse of anything, let alone the statistics regarding any facet of AA. I despise this cavalier approach to tossing artificial factoids around because it does not serve the truth.
I'm presently thinking about what you've just said, just as you asked me to. And what I have concluded is that, until you can strap yourself down and be civil, there won't be any further exchange between you and me. Go insult somebody else.
Mon, 07/02/2012 - 19:23
I am in love.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 08:50
Good for you, LFOD. It is a wonderful thing!
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 08:11
Lots of people reject AA & stay clean. Of course the purpose of writing this truth is to prove that if you reject AA you will not die, go to jail or an institution. Cults always use fear tactics to keep members & to make money off of them. That is exactly what Wilson did & what AA continues to do. Now all the people earning a living off of AA as Wilson did need to keep members actively working for free & spending money.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 00:59
patti says, "I'm sure you both are recognizing Clara plugging AA. And she is doing that AA thing again & telling you how others feel on this forum. Another AA mind reader."
How is this any different from the multitude of times you have screeched, "And you know it"? You have no fucking idea what anyone else knows or thinks or feels unless they tell you.
"One of the consequences of being a full of shit, manipulative, insane & mind fucking cult is that people will be bashing the cult," she says. Well then, perhaps her own words will explain to patti the presence of the other team here, the people whose grievances against AA are few to none.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 08:16
AA members take on the cult persona. They are manipulated & brain washed & controlled by some seriously unqualified & dumb ass psycho babble. AA members become one with the cult & become manipulators, brain washers, exploiters, abusers & control freaks. One & the same with Wilson & the cult. All cult members are one & the same & have the same persona's as the leader & guru. This is common knowledge. The Moonies are one & the same person, individuality & being one's own person & having one's own mind have been brain washed away.