Step 5

Is this really a life or death errand that will make us feel we are on the Broad Highway walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe?( BB 4th Ed page 75)

The 12 and 12 states that “AA experience has taught us we cannot live alone with our pressing problems and the character defects which cause them.” Exactly whose AA experience has taught who this? Bill Wilsons? Doctor Bobs?

“So far as alcoholics are concerned, AA would go even further. Most of us would declare that without a fearless admission of our defects to another human being we could not stay sober. It seems plain that the grace of God will not enter to expel our destructive obsessions until we are willing to try this” (12 & 12 page 58). Again is this sexual predator and lying, thieving con man Bill Wilson and child battering Doctor Bobs claim? And if not, who’s claim and how many steppers claim this?

If God WAS going to expel steppers destructive obsessions, why would he only do this if they made a fearless admission of their defects to another human being? Why would an All loving Ultimate Entity, demand that you have to humiliate yourself in front of another person before he will help you? Of what purpose is forced humiliation to either God or yourself? Furthermore if as many people, myself included, believe this life is a learning process, to develop spiritual growth, in preparation for another existence on a higher level. Isn’t it logical that these character defects were part of this learning process and something you were meant to recognise and surmount yourself, and learn something from, not just something to confess to members of a cult, in the deluded belief that it is necessary, in order to save yourself from death by drinking alcohol?

Isn’t this step 5, in reality, no of no more use than any forced confession? Isn’t it really just a cult scaremongering and degrading technique used to make you loath yourself and think you are only worthy of attending those macabre meetings and trying to entice others into joining this cult and also loathing themselves? That you are such a miserable piece of shit, God just wants you to attend these self-debasing cult sessions for the rest of your life, as punishment for your character defects and consequent drinking? In that respect, the AA program does ‘ work, if you work it’ and step 5 is fundamental in inducing this self-loathing cult frame of mind.

If you don’t believe in God then AA is irrelevant anyway. But if you do believe in God, I would suggest that it is really satan that wants you to think you are such a worthless piece of shit, whose only purpose in life from now on, is to attend those morbid cult indoctrination sessions and recruit others into the madness, as a lifetimes punishment for being a worthless piece of drunken shit.

This cult has nothing to do with spiritual growth or God.

I would suggest that Steppism is in fact spiritual degeneration and satanism

Comments

alkieanon's picture

"Repentance is the activity of reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs. It generally involves a commitment to personal change and resolving to live a more responsible and humane life. In religious contexts it usually refers to confession to God, ceasing sin against God in order to gain forgiveness or absolution. It typically includes an admission of guilt, a promise or resolve not to repeat the offense; an attempt to make restitution for the wrong, or in some way to reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible."

Of course, this is ignoring NoAAUK's suggestion(s). LOL!

steve cochrane's picture

must one do this? One time? A thousand times? Does a continous review of ones past make one a better human or should I say a more humane human? What parts of our past do we chose to repent about? Who is to judge this past behaviour? You? Me?

alkieanon's picture

It is up to the person to decide. Who are we (you, me, or anyone) to judge?

becket's picture

Are there rules drawn up somewhere about this? Individuals differ. Each decides for himself how often it might be wise to review his transgressions. For those who believe in God, then God would be the judge. For those who do not believe, then their own conscience tells them when they have work to do or an apology to make.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

"God would be the judge."

What makes you so sure God is a judge? Did he tell you when you' worked' step 11?

For this earthy life to be a fair test, wouldn't we all have to live the same life? Wouldn't we all have to sit the same exam paper so to speak?

What if this life is a learning process, an effort to attain a level of true spiritual growth and development (not cult indoctrination) that will enable ALL of us to live with God in paradise sometime in the future?

And God is NOT interested in judging his creations, just helping them from time to time with direction……..all of them not just stepper cult members.

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK's picture

"Does a continous review of ones past make one a better human or should I say a more humane human"

No of course we both know it doesn't, you have to continually try to change yourself for the future, the past is done.

AA's obsession with the past is nothing more than the standard cult 'bearing witness' technique. "I was such a badass, till I found wonderful AA and now look at me...I am a beautiful, character defect confessing, spiritual giant with serenity coming out of my ears, and I owe it all to wonderful AA"

Its just cult BS

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK's picture

"Repentance is the activity of reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs"

AA's step 5, same as all AA's steps are claimed to stop you drinking. The writers of the 12 & 12, I believe old conman and sexual predator Bill W himself was one of these, claim that the Grace of God will not enter anyone to expel their destructive obsessions until they are willing to try this step ( sound like a cult?). This step has nothing to do with repentance for past wrongs. AA has nothing to do with repentance. AA is a fear based cult (is there any other kind of cult?).

Admitting your character defects to another human being, in the delusional belief that doing so will expel an obsession to drink alcohol, is nothing to do with repentance, nor spiritual growth. It is a forced confession, done for self serving reasons like escaping the promised jails, institutions or death.

"It generally involves a commitment to personal change and resolving to live a more responsible and humane life"

So why do stepppers continually group confess the same old character defects? The only thing steppers do is NOT drink, and that is debatable in a lot of cases. If theres one thing steppers do not do its CHANGE. They can't even change their vocabulary. They just parrot the same shit week in week out, year in year out.

"In religious contexts it usually refers to confession to God, ceasing sin against God in order to gain forgiveness or absolution"

In AA contexts, it usually refers to confession to another human being, this is just a cult technique to make you feel like shit. Why do you need to confess to God anyway, doesn't God already know all your sins? When you have genuinely repented doesn't God forgive you anyway? Why would God forgive you for doing a forced confession done in the delusional selfish belief that it will expel your obsession to drink alcohol thus saving you from the promised jails, institutions and death. Is God really bothered about forgiving sins, how do you know God is not more concerned about you, just stopping harming others (like recruiting them into a death cult in the self-serving belief it saves you from jails, institutions and death). Maybe the real point in life is learning that you are not the centre of the universe and everybody else is just as important and deserving of happiness......not just confessing sins so you will stop drinking or go to Heaven

"It typically includes an admission of guilt, a promise or resolve not to repeat the offense;

Both you and God are already aware of the guilt, and a promise or resolve not to repeat the offense is also a totally worthless exercise. You have to actually NOT repeat the offense.......not just carry on doing it and confessing at stepper cult meetings, what a load of cult BS

"an attempt to make restitution for the wrong, or in some way to reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible."

That doesn't make the harm done cease to exist nor does it stop you repeating the harm. And it is still just false self-serving restitution when done by steppers selfishly attempting to avoid the promised jails, institutions and/or death

"Of course, this is ignoring NoAAUK's suggestion(s). LOL!"

AA, spiritual growth.........don't make me laugh LOL

Self-serving, delusional, cult indoctrination

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK,
agreed. AA is & was about a drunk & unemployed loser Wilson creating a group to earn a living & nothing more. Wilson copied Buchman s steps & methods meetings @ a members house. Buchman was also an unemployed loser who like Wilson couldn't hold a job. Buchman failed miserably @ any Minister post he held. He made the young male students @ Oxford very uncomfortable with his constant attempts to get the boys to confess & discuss their sexual experiences & feelings. I figure Buchman was trolling for sex hoping to find out a boy was a homosexual. Buchman was a homosexual but he did not live truthfully he was in the closet. Understandable for the times & his attempted Minister career. Using religion to exploit & manipulate people for financial, sexual or control gain is the oldest con in the world. So Wilson like Buchman used religion to live off of vulnerable followers. Nothing Wilson or Buchman said, wrote or told others to practice had anything to do with genuine spirituality or the good things in life such as decency & kindness to self & others. Both Wilson & Buchman were evil self serving individuals & they & what they did had nothing to do with God or anything good, decent or honorable. It has always been about losers like Wilson & Buchman getting over on people with jobs, homes & assets. It was about money, power, abuse, exploitation, manipulation & control nothing more.

patti

NoAAUK's picture

Agreed,

though I didn't know Buchman was an homosexual. I suspected as much, with his confessional sessions at universities

They do seem to like confessions and sex, these cult founder deviants......seems to be a common factor

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

"It seems plain that the grace of God will not enter to expel our destructive obsessions until we are willing to try this".

Wow.
It seems palin that God will not "enter" and do special favors for us unless we practice this cult religion ritual. Good catch. What a bunch of sick, self-deluded garbage.

NoAAUK's picture

"Wow.
It seems palin that God will not "enter" and do special favors for us unless we practice this cult religion ritual. Good catch. What a bunch of sick, self-deluded garbage."

Isn't it just!!!!

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

MS,
I know. How can anyone take Wilson's billshit seriously? Wilson plainly knows when God will or will not enter another person's life or problems. Wilson knows everything so do AA members. They like Wilson were always telling my self & others what God wanted & how God felt & thought. Wilson was of course just lying he was copying Buchmans rap & lies. Both guys desperately needed a gig & to control people to live off of. What con is better than to rap you are a guru & have a special communication with God & know what God will or won't do & how God feels & thinks. Just a typical con using religion to exploit, manipulate & control. And just a typical con target group desperate & vulnerable addicts downtrodden & battered & easy to control. Buchmans targets were not as vulnerable so his cult shriveled up to tiny insignifcance. Wilson's cult & con outlasted & survived due to the target group. Wilson had better con instincts than Buchman.

patti

becket's picture

When did you know that AA was not your thing, patti?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

Same time as the rest of us, when she realised AA is nothing but a lying, misinforming, scaremongering, predatory cult.

When everybody finally realises this.........no more AA

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Yeah. A woman at my wifes workplace went to a week long 'session' with a filthy rich Lady Guru from India. Cost her $5000 for a week of wisdom. 28 people attended. Do the math suckers.

Clara's picture

Thos "enlightement" seminars are very big right now.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

If it's her money, her desire and her life, get the fuck out of it msafrany.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

Some of us don't like con artists.....that’s another reason we left AA

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

extortion/blackmail. The trouble is most folks don't set out fully aware of the game they're stepping into (no pun intended). Most folks believe they are doing the right thing to relieve themselves of secrets thru confession in the catholic church, thru disclosure in the therapists office, or thru the telling of secret behavior with an AA sponsor.
The trouble is that the old human propensity to control & dominate people with the information obtained then spreads like a cancer in the back of the minds of everyone participating in this game. So you have poured out your guts to a sponsor in the hope that it will relieve the compulsion to ever drink again, when in fact, having no idea what that sponsor could, would, or might do with that information, is actually enough to make you want to drink again if you start to think about it. So instead of worrying about it, the good AA just follows suit....finding people to sponsor themselves so they too can be the beneficiary of someone elses secrets - thus having the same power another has over them.
And on it goes. I knew someone who took his 5th across the country to a complete stranger in an old AA clubhouse. He flew home afterward and never saw those folks again. That of course raises another whole set of questions.
Ideally, humans educate themselves and develpe an ethical system that is closely related to the golden rule and begin to practice that through out life. Eastern thought, western religions, humanism, no religion at all but a moral code all serve to guide us through life.
No one needs the 12 steps anymore.
There may have been a time and place, like 1935 for some of the principles of AA to help those drunken bums, but most of those practices are purely ritualistic now. Useless. Serve no real practical need or function.
AA is dead.

Anthro

JR Harris's picture

The 5th Step in AA is like the 1997 movie "The Game" with Michael Douglas and Sean Penn. Only it is being manipulated by the local Intergroup tied to AAWS at the Interchuch Center in New York instead of Consumer Recreation Services (CRS) in the movie. They serve the same purpose.....

Nicholas Van Orton (Douglas) is a successful and extremely wealthy investment banker, but his success has come at the cost of his personal life. He is estranged from both his ex-wife and his only brother. He remains haunted from having seen his father commit suicide on the latter's 48th birthday. On his own 48th birthday, Conrad (Penn), Nicholas' rebellious younger brother, presents Nicholas with an unusual gift—a voucher for a "game" offered by a company called Consumer Recreation Services (CRS). Conrad promises that it will change Nick's life.

Nicholas has doubts about the gift and delays calling CRS. A chance encounter with fellow club members who enjoyed the Game changes Nicholas' mind. He goes to the organization's offices to apply and is irritated by the lengthy and time-consuming series of psychological and physical examinations required. He is later informed that his application has been rejected.

This is a ruse however: the Game has already begun. Starting with the merely invasive and rapidly escalating to the potentially criminal, Nicholas believes that his business, reputation, finances, and safety are at risk. He encounters a waitress, Christine (Deborah Kara Unger), who appears to have been caught up in the game and also comes under risk. Nicholas contacts the police to investigate CRS, but they find the offices abandoned.

Eventually, Conrad appears to Nicholas and apologizes for the Game claiming that he too has come under attack by CRS. With no one else to turn to, Nicholas finds Christine's home. He soon discovers that she is a CRS employee and that her apartment has simply been staged to look like a real apartment. Christine tells Nicholas that they are being watched. Nicholas attacks a camera, and armed CRS troops begin to swarm the house and fire upon them. Nicholas and Christine are forced to flee. Nicholas realizes that CRS has drained his financial accounts, and he is now broke. Christine tells him that some of his closest associates are part of the Game. Just as he begins to trust Christine, he realizes she has drugged him, and he falls unconscious.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_%28film%29#Plot

Kind of reminds you of a scenario much like the Burning Tree Ranch Rehab in Texas might pull on an unsuspecting prospect handed to them by a loved one. http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1753

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

I found my fifth step to be a great experience. I did it wih a profressional. I agree with you, though, that you have to be cautious about whom you select... You don't have to be on OPF for very long to realize that the "gotcha" part of unhealthy personalities is alive and well, which is why I never shared anything with anyone I didn't expect would be disclosed. But what I found in my fifth step is that whatever I had on my shoulders lost its power when shared with another.

My sponsor is an attorney and he had had some very interesting 5th steps. Many people do their fifth steps with him because there is often something that needs to be cleaned up and they need aid from someone that can help them do it appropriately.

"The trouble is that the old human propensity to control & dominate people with the information obtained then spreads like a cancer in the back of the minds of everyone participating in this game."

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

You are indeed blessed, there aren't many Alcoholics Anonymous Lawyer Sponsors in Myrtle Beach to go around. Does he still go on prospect hunting trips to jails and prisons to bring back his prey to the Intergroup to feast upon? Is he still doing it for free?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

JR Harris's picture

"My sponsor is an attorney and he had had some very interesting 5th steps. "

Do you mean to tell us that your Lawyer Sponsor from Myrtle Beach confided in you about some of the other "victims" that he had captured into sponsorship? I hope you don't tell other people about them if you Sponsor people (hopefully you do not). Do you send him any prospects or clients needing his legal expertise in avoiding jail using the "Alcoholics Anonymous get out of jail free card?"

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

I am not rabid about AA, but I must say, Anthro, your posts make me want to take out billboard ads in support of AA. I do hope you live with such suspicion and bile for the rest of your life. Keep looking over your shoulder, guy, 'cause they're out to get you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

beclit said>>"I do hope you live with such suspicion and bile for the rest of your life."
>>>>>yep, becket is the picture of serenity, ain't he?

beclit said>>"Keep looking over your shoulder, guy, 'cause they're out to get you."
>>>>>AA prospect hunters becket?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

So, assuming one believes the bullshit of Step 4 the "fearless moral inventory" step (which doesn't have shit to do with acquiring an addiction, or recovering from one!), WHY would one have to verbally, or in writing, the "moral inventory" list of Step 4 to ANY HUMAN BEING in Step 5. I mean, if you write down you are a scum-sucking, bottom dweller in Step 4, and verbalize all that content in Step 5, you have just handed a "sponsor", or the cult-group, EVERYTHING THEY NEED TO USE AGAINST YOU (and put it on the Internet if someone wants!). WHY would anyone BE THAT FUCKING STUPID??? Or from a different perspective, as Melanie Solomon explains in "AA Not The Only Way", why does Step 4 only focus on the "wrongs"? What if you do something RIGHT (like stay sober another day!). I guess that would not be acceptable to verbalize in a "Step 5" revelation, would it?