Lets Talk About "Will Power" #2

Submitted by Soberman on Sun, 06/24/2012 - 01:20

Which comes first, the thought or the decision?
I think therefore I am?
I think of taking a drink?
I think of smoking a cig?
I think of eating a pie?
I have no "Free Will' with respect to a thought.
I cannot control a thought.
It just happens.
Sober-man
I don't drink and I do as I please?.
I have been doing this since Feb 22,1970
I am 80 years young.

Comments

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 01:40

The Free Will
Can the alcoholic know why he is like he is?

Can the non- alcoholic account why he is not like them?

Does The Alcoholic have a free will to change?

Can the non-alcoholic account why they are not like the alcoholic?

As sick as we find the alcoholics behavior, could the non-alcoholic trade places with the alcoholic?

Sober-man

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:08

Can the alcoholic know why he is like he is?...........He drank too much booze, too often

"Can the non- alcoholic account why he is not like them?"..........He didn't drink too much booze, too often.

"Does The Alcoholic have a free will to change?"........... Course he/she does. They have been doing it for years, who else is going to do it for them..........a door knob?

Can the non-alcoholic account why they are not like the alcoholic? ..........again, they didn't drink too much booze, too often

"As sick as we find the alcoholics behavior, could the non-alcoholic trade places with the alcoholic?"..........Yes just drink to much booze too often

Next question

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

msafrany

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 07:25

Bull-shit?

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 12:53

Sober-man

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 08:08

Everybody thinks about all sorts of things every day. Sometimes you can't always control the first thought that comes into your head. That doesn't mean you have to act on it. Non alcoholics are no different in this regard. People think of all sorts of stuff all the time that they don't do.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 11:17

Very well said msafrany and Pennywise, thanks.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 12:50

How can you be aware of a thought before your think it.
Sober-man

steve cochrane's picture

steve cochrane

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 05:20

has nothing to do with thought or 'a thought' if you will. Are you aware that you are aware?

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 12:54

Do you have "Free Will" with respect to thought?
Sober-man

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:15

Not the alcoholic.
Sober-man

Anthro

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 17:07

Will you please site scientific studies and/or philosophical theories that say the alcoholic does NOT have free will?

Anthro

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:26

Will you please site scientific studies and/or philosophical theories that say the alcoholic does NOT have free will?
Go to Audio.com
Find:The book "Free Will' by Sam Harris.
Sober-man

gigi

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 19:12

It's a very interesting book, Soberman. I'm a bit confused as to why you're differentiating between the alcoholic/nonalcoholic in terms of free will, though. I believe that Harris contends that none of us really have free will in terms of thoughts and the unseen, unconscious events that happen in our brains that cause a thought to occur. I'm further confused about what your contention is about the free will (or lack thereof) of alcoholics vs. nonalcoholics.
Anyway, a quote from the book I liked a lot:

"Are we free to choose to do that which never occured to us to do?"

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 12:27

when you are engrossed in a Satanic cult that thrives on lies, misinformation, scaremongering, sexual predation and general self-serving control of others, what higher level entity is putting thoughts into your head?

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 12:51

Sober-man

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:07

Might be an answer for practicing steppers

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:27

Sober-man

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 12:57

What part of the thought "Powerless" over alcohol do you contribute to Free Will
Sober-man

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:13

Scientists, drunks, psychologists, sober individuals, lots and lots and lots of people have investigated this conundrum for generations. For my money there is no satisfactory answer. How can you compare the filed thoughts, guilt, shame, fear, hope, trust, dreams of one individual with those of another? How can you compare DNA, possible genetic factors, nature/nurture? I don't believe answers to your questions will be found in our lifetime, not in science or study of mind and body, anyway. I think you are asking questions that demand entire, multiple careers of research, and still you will end up with the evidence possibly pointing to something without offering established, widely-recognized explanations that will be fully accepted within the human population. These questions are the same as God/no god. You have your believers and your naysayers. The argument will continue long after you and I are in the ground, Soberman.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:19

A brain disease with biological underpinnings

No one raises a glass of alcohol, snorts a line of cocaine, or lights up a nicotine-laden cigarette with a toast: "Here's to addiction." When first using these drugs, people simply choose to do something that makes them feel good. But with continued use, these people can find themselves addicted: They depend on the drug not simply to feel good but to feel normal. Using drugs is no longer a choice but a compulsion. These people don't plan to become addicts; it just happens.

In a recent article, Alan Leshner, PhD, director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, calls this the "oops phenomenon." It happens when occasional use of a drug turns into weekly use, then daily use, and then eventually into a surprising, distressing realization: "I'm addicted."

http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/vcwin1braindisease.page

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:12

I hope they are eventually able to put this question to bed. I don't give a shit who the scientists are and who you think they're in bed with. You can take that Tradition 10 and torch it: I am not an AA member and am not beholden to any of their commands.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:22

You can't stop it.
You can't stop a thought.
You are not free to think.
There is no such thing as "Free Will" when it comes to thought.
That is all there is to it.
Sober-man

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:12

So if I think you're an 80-year-old shit-stirrer, well, I can't stop it and I just can't help it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:29

The above is just Bull Shit.
Sober-man

flannigan

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:04

Nice to see you back on OPF, soberman. I am powerless to attempt an answer to your question.

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:12

The "Thought" or the "Action"?
Soberman

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:08

The alcoholic just don't go hippy de hoppy down main street, step on a banana peal, slide into an open bar room with his mouth open and someone pours a drink in it.
No
The alcohol must first have the thought of a drink of alcohol.
He is not free to have this thought.
He is Powerless over this thought.
He is not powerless over choosing not to drink it.
Sober-man

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:17

Just because the alcoholic has the thought of a drink doesn't mean he, "hippy de hoppy" goes into a bar. He does have power over his actions. I also believe that he also has power over obsessive thoughts. If the alcoholic chooses.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:22

The term "Alcoholic" is just a label used by the voodoo guru's of Hazelden and Alcoholics Anonymous to identify to the coven, who they should set their sights on......

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:25

Your comment is "Bull Shit" Trisha K
Sober-man

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:31

I also believe that he also has power over obsessive thoughts.
No No No
Sober-man

Soberman

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:29

Soberman