That's a great question, Becket. I imagine it would amount to coercion if the nearest SMART meeting was 250 miles away but AA was just down the street. But as far as I know the issue has not been addressed yet.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
"If the courts are going to deem this worthy of treatment instead of jail, then they should provide the alternative themselves in a form that doesn't violate the rights of anyone."
They are just attempting to deal with a problem that is not of their making. This is bullshit!! It is up to the convict to participate in his recovery and if he fails to do so one should be picked for him.
This is not a socialist gov't here. We (the courts) are not entitled to take care of people failings.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
The people being sentenced aren't on trial for their addictions, being addicted to drugs or alcohol is not criminal offense. Or even a civil one, so far as I know. If you can't figure out the rest.....
Do you know how often people blame their behavior on the fact that they were high and use it as a factor? When you caught drunk driving, it isn't about your addiction, it is about that you are driving while drunk, which is illegal, whether you are an alcoholic or not.
Be real, if Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc (AAWS) currently inhabiting the Interchurch Center in New York didn't enable the court system to do that, it wouldn't have happened. Don't forget Danny, that is the same type of thinking that allowed Elan in Poland Maine to put you into "confrontational therapy" and made you what you are today.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
behaviors at home, JR. This is what read from one of Danny's earlier posts here. Is this true JR.
Were you really a sick bastard like they say. Is this why your family left you.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Everyone knows it is you on the Internet Danny, you can lie, but you can't hide. Your writing style and fondness of dragging people behind cars is very easy to spot.
let the melt down begin.................
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
You come in here blazing with allegations, and insulting characterizations ad calling by a name you know isn't me.
JR you're the one having a meltdown.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Whatever you say Danny, you shouldn't be talking about Clara behind her back. I'll ignore the "juicy" gossip you shared to try and get into that "hidden forum" that you were going on about last week.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Please, I really want you to do that. Because then it will finally convince everyone here who you really are. JR I have known ever since I got here you are one sick bastard.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
You must have contacted her and gained her confidence. You didn't say anything about Becket to get access to the "secret rooms" on the Orange Papers
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Yeah, PIE. He gave out her personal info thinking he was gaining our trust and favor while he was in chat. He's too stupid to know he gave himself away.
This is a little out of context; is "they" the people who are mandated to meeting? It seems then that she's saying if they don't like it they can go to jail.
I don't think any criminal should be mandated to go to a 12-step program for any reason. I think they should be sentenced to jail and not to any meetings as an augmentation of the sentencing. Their presence contaminates the meetings, and mandating is antithetical in its demanding willingness and openmindedness of the criminals, which is rather an oxymoron.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
I agree, and I've said this many times lol. The argument of choice between AA and jail and/or offering options is inconsequential imo. No choices and not treatment. The judge's job is to punish for a crime. I know that in the last 50 years ago there has been argument that alcoholism/addiction is an illness and "offenders" should be treated for their illness. Perhaps this is so if they want to get better and their only offense is using. However in 99% of the cases I read about the diseased addict has been arrested for a crime while under the influence. Imo it is the crime that should be addressed. It's aggravating to see criminals get a slap on the wrist.
I wouldn't doubt at some point they take away the option from people the choice of what treatment they want to attend, whether it is religious or not. I have wondered why so many judges have ignored the higher courts rulings.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
As Penny brought up another time, though, you are not a criminal because you simply were not caught even though you sought out your dealer and engage in illegal commerce because of an addiction. I drank and drove multiple times and I WAS caught. What would the appropriate action be in your case?
lol, it doesn't really matter. If I had been caught breaking the law I'd of expected to be punished and would have followed through with whatever my sentence was.
I believe it does matter if a person was caught btw. There is something to be said of learning from mistakes and from punishment received. Had I been busted as well as punished by the law I'd of probably recognized my substance abuse problem much earlier and done something about it. I actually kind of wish that had happened the first time I bought pills. You on the other hand repeatedly dui'd, was also caught a few times, and didn't learn from your sentencing. eek!
I am somewhat of the belief that the repercussions of crime are well known. If the sentencing guidelines include some sort of help, why not? And it doesn't have to be AA. Never said it did. I don't WANT mandated persons in AA. My problem is with people doing the crime, not wanting to do the time or anything else asked of them as the result of that crime.
He was already sentenced, Clara. Part of his sentence was complying with supervision, and his PO ordered AA/NA. Inouye sued and the PO argued qualified immunity. The district court agreed with the PO and ruled that the PO was immune from suit. Inouye appealed, and the Circuit Court of Appeals agreed with him. Whether ordering someone to AA violates the Constitution was not the issue. That issue was settled years before in Inouye's favor. The issue here was whether forcing someone to AA was such a flagrant violation of constitutional rights as to overcome qualified immunity. The Court of Appeals said that it was, holding that "an officer in Nanamori's position, having available near-unanimous judicial invalidation of religious coercion in this and similar contexts, with a lawsuit in progress against the prison system for mandating participation in a similar program, and having Kerr in hand, should not have reasonably repeated the same mistake."
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Inouye, didn't do anything, he was busy smoking meth and getting himself arrested yet again for wreaking havoc at a hotel.
Please stop acting like he was this all American poster boy for the 1st amendment because he wasn't. BTW, guess what he died from before his case was settled, you guessed it.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Trisha says:
Remember, most of the anti-aa'ers brag about their independence, their will, I did it all by myself, I make my own decisions. I am in charge, if I want to quit using I will, it is my choice.
Ifod, remember this, these comments came from your brethren here.
But now you want to protest and argue that people don't have choices. I say bullshit, in every example you posted, there is a choice there. Maybe it is a choice you don't like but it is a choice.
Ifod wrote:
AA is a choice? What a laugh!
Trisha says:
It is a choice.
Ifod wrote
For some AA is not a choice. Could be the justice system that mandates attendance.
Trisha says:
This is total bullshit. You are given a choice go to AA or go to jail for your crime. Ifod, there has been a crime committed here, for christ sake, grow up and be accountable. I am sorry the courts pick AA, most members of AA wish they would not but they do.
Ifod wrote:
For some AA is not a choice. Could be an employer that requires attendence to remain employed.
Trisha says:
Your choice, go or quit. You should feel grateful that your company pays for your treatment in some cases. Lets see now, you have been stealing hours of company time, ruining business deals, costing your company revenues. Should I go on.
I believe company's should kick drunks and drug addicts to the curb and make sure they are never hired again in there chosen field. Boy, that would fix your problem ifod. I am so happy this is not the case in most incidents. Companies are willing to work with their employees and help them seek the assistance they need.
Ifod wrote:
For some AA is not a choice. Could be a spouse that requires attendence.
Trisha says:
You could always just leave, go to another program or just quit on your own. At this point in your relationship your spouse really couldn't care a less what recovery program you choose, so long as you committed yourself to it. Yes, you do have a choice here.
Remember you made a choice every day to use your drugs rather then take care of your family.
Ifod wrote:
And, last, the substance abuser that buys into the AA/NA way, OR DIE, dogma, AA paints the picture as "Do the 12 steps, work our program, and if you don't, you will surely die!"
Trisha says:
Nice try martyr. Sorry you are not a naive, ignorant potato farmer with a second grade education. if you were smart enough to gather money for your drugs and deal with the crafty manipulative drug dealers out there, then you are able to deal with Bill Wilson. If you are able to deal with an alcoholics life style one must live then you can deal with Bill W.
Substance abuser buys into Bill W's words. I have never met an addict or drunk that whole-heartily bought into anything. We are by nature skeptical and a bit paranoid with a persona built on rebellion.
Who the hell are you kidding!!! Yourself???
ifod wrote:
AA is a choice? Ha!
Trisha says:
It is a choice my friend. You are not in chains, you are not oppressed and you definitely are not a victim.
IFOD, STOP TALKING OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF YOUR MOUTH!!!
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
There are times that some people don't have a choice. Pay attention here Danny B II.
I am not saying that all AA attendees are coerced into meetings of the hokey religious program of AA/12 steps.
An employer requiring AA meeting attendence is a condition placed upon continued employment. AA steppers aregue that, well, quit. This often times not viable solution for various reasons. Maybe the employee loves their job, or, maybe the employee likes the shelter of a roof and food on the table for his family. The employer has placed a condition on continued employment-this is a form of coercion.
I know you will refute this TRish, but I understand that you need to faithfully, blindly, defend your AA religious cult.
This is where the detractors need to add options. In many areas, AA is the only game in town. If people really truly believe that there should be more options, they should be willing to start meetings so that there can be more options. I hear too much "they" should do this or that instead of "where can I personally help..."
Oh, perhaps counselors trained to help you with your problems? People whose education isn't solely based in what they learned from their sponsors? It doesn't seem too much to ask...
No!! There was NO area of support that helped me! I thought I'd made that abundantly clear. In my case, there was even a two hatter (of menial intelligence and superior obsession) who was able to override the DOCTORS and deny substance abuse patients access to trauma counseling. So no, Clara, no help. No support.
Becket, that's completely irrelevant. I was seeking help and paying (and/or willing to pay) for it. As far as I'm concerned, that side of it is a consumer issue. If anyone else selling a service predicated its value on the consumer's willingness to believe in it, they'd be shut down for fraud.
Becket, it's a fairly clear cut issue. People are being charged tens of thousands of dollars for rehabs in which they are being abused and/or treated unfairly. Not to mention not helped--and given VERY LITTLE HOPE. That should be regulated, don't you think? If only on a consumer level?
Regulated how? Everything should be uniformly a-religious? Or should rehabs be categorized? Atheist rehab, agnostic rehab, Roman Catholic rehab, Southern Baptist rehab? What training should the employees be required to have, and should the religious rehab admins have doctorates in divinity? Should they let the patients run if they escape? Should all patients have an attorney present when they sign themselves in? What?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
They're somewhat regulated in that they have to be licensed in the first place, Becket. Yes, though. Places that charge that much money for a supposed service should have to prove what it is they're selling, and that their treatments are effective. Again, that's nothing other businesses aren't having to do already. Are you suggesting that these places be able to stay outside of this scrutiny? Because that is really, really absurd. I realize you're just arguing to argue, but still.
I am not arguing for that. My examples are extreme, but so is the situation. I think there should be treatment modalities tailored to people's beliefs and the things that they trust, not the other way around. No one should be forced to swallow the bitter "Take It Or Leave It" pill. That creates angry distrusters. There's something to be said for making a good impression the first time.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Yes, you've made that clear. But what do you propose be done for criminals that cannot be mandated to AA because it is secular, yet there are no other SMART or anything else? HAMS is out of the question because while on probation, you aren't supposed to be learning to modify. They want you to stop entirely.
I've said it so many times I don't feel the need to restate it. I don't think the implementation would go smoothly either. In short: I have no problem with the idea of taxation nor with paying my taxes, and wish they were being used more appropriately.
Maybe the "stepper" should stand behind his convictions and educate the employer. Change doesn't happen overnight. It often comes about through generations of abuses and intolerable conditions, not to mention stipulations that require employees to relinquish their own legitimate rights.
If a "stepper" is whining that what is happening to him is constitutionally illegal but still wants to make those payments on his summer home or pay off his kid's '53 Corvette, fuck him. He ain't got no room to complain.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
If a "stepper" is whining that what is happening to him is constitutionally illegal but still wants to make those payments on his summer home or pay off his kid's '53 Corvette, fuck him. He ain't got no room to complain.
That's pretty naive, especially in this economy.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Comments
Pennywise
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 16:16
Permalink
That's a great question,
That's a great question, Becket. I imagine it would amount to coercion if the nearest SMART meeting was 250 miles away but AA was just down the street. But as far as I know the issue has not been addressed yet.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
avogadno
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:46
Permalink
That was well said, PIE.
That was well said, PIE.
"If the courts are going to deem this worthy of treatment instead of jail, then they should provide the alternative themselves in a form that doesn't violate the rights of anyone."
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Trisha K.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:52
Permalink
Why is it put on the courts???
They are just attempting to deal with a problem that is not of their making. This is bullshit!! It is up to the convict to participate in his recovery and if he fails to do so one should be picked for him.
This is not a socialist gov't here. We (the courts) are not entitled to take care of people failings.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:56
Permalink
The people being sentenced
The people being sentenced aren't on trial for their addictions, being addicted to drugs or alcohol is not criminal offense. Or even a civil one, so far as I know. If you can't figure out the rest.....
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Clara
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:06
Permalink
Do you know how often people
Do you know how often people blame their behavior on the fact that they were high and use it as a factor? When you caught drunk driving, it isn't about your addiction, it is about that you are driving while drunk, which is illegal, whether you are an alcoholic or not.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Trisha K.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:30
Permalink
Very good point Clara, thanks.
They include AA in your sentence because they believe you have a problem....duh!!!
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Trisha K.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 17:52
Permalink
They are on trial because the broke the law while under....
the influence of a drug or alcohol. So therefore part of their probation will include getting help for this addiction.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
JR Harris
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:07
Permalink
And the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous steps in to save the day
Be real, if Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc (AAWS) currently inhabiting the Interchurch Center in New York didn't enable the court system to do that, it wouldn't have happened. Don't forget Danny, that is the same type of thinking that allowed Elan in Poland Maine to put you into "confrontational therapy" and made you what you are today.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Trisha K.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:14
Permalink
Just like your wife told you to get lost because of questionable
behaviors at home, JR. This is what read from one of Danny's earlier posts here. Is this true JR.
Were you really a sick bastard like they say. Is this why your family left you.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
JR Harris
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:19
Permalink
I know Danny, is it time for one of your online melt downs?
Everyone knows it is you on the Internet Danny, you can lie, but you can't hide. Your writing style and fondness of dragging people behind cars is very easy to spot.
let the melt down begin.................
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Trisha K.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:34
Permalink
You have not been over here in days.
You come in here blazing with allegations, and insulting characterizations ad calling by a name you know isn't me.
JR you're the one having a meltdown.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
JR Harris
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:45
Permalink
Whatever you say Danny, you shouldn't be talking about Clara
Whatever you say Danny, you shouldn't be talking about Clara behind her back. I'll ignore the "juicy" gossip you shared to try and get into that "hidden forum" that you were going on about last week.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Trisha K.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:52
Permalink
You go ahead and play that card.
Please, I really want you to do that. Because then it will finally convince everyone here who you really are. JR I have known ever since I got here you are one sick bastard.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
JR Harris
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:56
Permalink
But Danny, the things you said about Clara were awful
You must have contacted her and gained her confidence. You didn't say anything about Becket to get access to the "secret rooms" on the Orange Papers
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Trisha K.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:58
Permalink
Lmao.....Post them!!!
Lmao.....Post them!!!
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 19:22
Permalink
What was this, JR?
What was this, JR? Was this that weirdo around last week? The crazy talking bugger?
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
causeandeffect
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 19:28
Permalink
Yeah, PIE. He gave out her
Yeah, PIE. He gave out her personal info thinking he was gaining our trust and favor while he was in chat. He's too stupid to know he gave himself away.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:53
Permalink
Thank you, Avo.
Thank you, Avo.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
becket
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:20
Permalink
This is a little out of
This is a little out of context; is "they" the people who are mandated to meeting? It seems then that she's saying if they don't like it they can go to jail.
I don't think any criminal should be mandated to go to a 12-step program for any reason. I think they should be sentenced to jail and not to any meetings as an augmentation of the sentencing. Their presence contaminates the meetings, and mandating is antithetical in its demanding willingness and openmindedness of the criminals, which is rather an oxymoron.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
avogadno
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:32
Permalink
I agree, and I've said this
I agree, and I've said this many times lol. The argument of choice between AA and jail and/or offering options is inconsequential imo. No choices and not treatment. The judge's job is to punish for a crime. I know that in the last 50 years ago there has been argument that alcoholism/addiction is an illness and "offenders" should be treated for their illness. Perhaps this is so if they want to get better and their only offense is using. However in 99% of the cases I read about the diseased addict has been arrested for a crime while under the influence. Imo it is the crime that should be addressed. It's aggravating to see criminals get a slap on the wrist.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Trisha K.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:45
Permalink
The liberals in this country will never go for that.
I wouldn't doubt at some point they take away the option from people the choice of what treatment they want to attend, whether it is religious or not. I have wondered why so many judges have ignored the higher courts rulings.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:31
Permalink
Damn those liberals.
Damn those liberals.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Clara
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:18
Permalink
As Penny brought up another
As Penny brought up another time, though, you are not a criminal because you simply were not caught even though you sought out your dealer and engage in illegal commerce because of an addiction. I drank and drove multiple times and I WAS caught. What would the appropriate action be in your case?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:29
Permalink
Wow Clara, that sure was
Wow Clara, that sure was below the belt.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
avogadno
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 15:10
Permalink
lol, it doesn't really matter
lol, it doesn't really matter. If I had been caught breaking the law I'd of expected to be punished and would have followed through with whatever my sentence was.
I believe it does matter if a person was caught btw. There is something to be said of learning from mistakes and from punishment received. Had I been busted as well as punished by the law I'd of probably recognized my substance abuse problem much earlier and done something about it. I actually kind of wish that had happened the first time I bought pills. You on the other hand repeatedly dui'd, was also caught a few times, and didn't learn from your sentencing. eek!
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:15
Permalink
Yup. Thank you, Becket.
Yup. Thank you, Becket.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:02
Permalink
I am somewhat of the belief
I am somewhat of the belief that the repercussions of crime are well known. If the sentencing guidelines include some sort of help, why not? And it doesn't have to be AA. Never said it did. I don't WANT mandated persons in AA. My problem is with people doing the crime, not wanting to do the time or anything else asked of them as the result of that crime.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:50
Permalink
He was already sentenced,
He was already sentenced, Clara. Part of his sentence was complying with supervision, and his PO ordered AA/NA. Inouye sued and the PO argued qualified immunity. The district court agreed with the PO and ruled that the PO was immune from suit. Inouye appealed, and the Circuit Court of Appeals agreed with him. Whether ordering someone to AA violates the Constitution was not the issue. That issue was settled years before in Inouye's favor. The issue here was whether forcing someone to AA was such a flagrant violation of constitutional rights as to overcome qualified immunity. The Court of Appeals said that it was, holding that "an officer in Nanamori's position, having available near-unanimous judicial invalidation of religious coercion in this and similar contexts, with a lawsuit in progress against the prison system for mandating participation in a similar program, and having Kerr in hand, should not have reasonably repeated the same mistake."
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Trisha K.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:01
Permalink
Inouye, didn't do anything,
Inouye, didn't do anything, he was busy smoking meth and getting himself arrested yet again for wreaking havoc at a hotel.
Please stop acting like he was this all American poster boy for the 1st amendment because he wasn't. BTW, guess what he died from before his case was settled, you guessed it.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Trisha K.
Sat, 06/23/2012 - 21:32
Permalink
Ifod, if you are in control of your life, AA is a choice.
Trisha says:
Remember, most of the anti-aa'ers brag about their independence, their will, I did it all by myself, I make my own decisions. I am in charge, if I want to quit using I will, it is my choice.
Ifod, remember this, these comments came from your brethren here.
But now you want to protest and argue that people don't have choices. I say bullshit, in every example you posted, there is a choice there. Maybe it is a choice you don't like but it is a choice.
Ifod wrote:
AA is a choice? What a laugh!
Trisha says:
It is a choice.
Ifod wrote
For some AA is not a choice. Could be the justice system that mandates attendance.
Trisha says:
This is total bullshit. You are given a choice go to AA or go to jail for your crime. Ifod, there has been a crime committed here, for christ sake, grow up and be accountable. I am sorry the courts pick AA, most members of AA wish they would not but they do.
Ifod wrote:
For some AA is not a choice. Could be an employer that requires attendence to remain employed.
Trisha says:
Your choice, go or quit. You should feel grateful that your company pays for your treatment in some cases. Lets see now, you have been stealing hours of company time, ruining business deals, costing your company revenues. Should I go on.
I believe company's should kick drunks and drug addicts to the curb and make sure they are never hired again in there chosen field. Boy, that would fix your problem ifod. I am so happy this is not the case in most incidents. Companies are willing to work with their employees and help them seek the assistance they need.
Ifod wrote:
For some AA is not a choice. Could be a spouse that requires attendence.
Trisha says:
You could always just leave, go to another program or just quit on your own. At this point in your relationship your spouse really couldn't care a less what recovery program you choose, so long as you committed yourself to it. Yes, you do have a choice here.
Remember you made a choice every day to use your drugs rather then take care of your family.
Ifod wrote:
And, last, the substance abuser that buys into the AA/NA way, OR DIE, dogma, AA paints the picture as "Do the 12 steps, work our program, and if you don't, you will surely die!"
Trisha says:
Nice try martyr. Sorry you are not a naive, ignorant potato farmer with a second grade education. if you were smart enough to gather money for your drugs and deal with the crafty manipulative drug dealers out there, then you are able to deal with Bill Wilson. If you are able to deal with an alcoholics life style one must live then you can deal with Bill W.
Substance abuser buys into Bill W's words. I have never met an addict or drunk that whole-heartily bought into anything. We are by nature skeptical and a bit paranoid with a persona built on rebellion.
Who the hell are you kidding!!! Yourself???
ifod wrote:
AA is a choice? Ha!
Trisha says:
It is a choice my friend. You are not in chains, you are not oppressed and you definitely are not a victim.
IFOD, STOP TALKING OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF YOUR MOUTH!!!
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
live_free_or_die
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 09:20
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No TRish
There are times that some people don't have a choice. Pay attention here Danny B II.
I am not saying that all AA attendees are coerced into meetings of the hokey religious program of AA/12 steps.
An employer requiring AA meeting attendence is a condition placed upon continued employment. AA steppers aregue that, well, quit. This often times not viable solution for various reasons. Maybe the employee loves their job, or, maybe the employee likes the shelter of a roof and food on the table for his family. The employer has placed a condition on continued employment-this is a form of coercion.
I know you will refute this TRish, but I understand that you need to faithfully, blindly, defend your AA religious cult.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Clara
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 11:27
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This is where the detractors
This is where the detractors need to add options. In many areas, AA is the only game in town. If people really truly believe that there should be more options, they should be willing to start meetings so that there can be more options. I hear too much "they" should do this or that instead of "where can I personally help..."
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 12:49
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Well Clara, at this point I
Well Clara, at this point I am asking where I can help. I want options for treatment. Meetings are irrelevant there. That is a "they" scenario.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Clara
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 12:54
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What options do you think
What options do you think there should be? Was there an area of support that helped you?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:09
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Oh, perhaps counselors
Oh, perhaps counselors trained to help you with your problems? People whose education isn't solely based in what they learned from their sponsors? It doesn't seem too much to ask...
No!! There was NO area of support that helped me! I thought I'd made that abundantly clear. In my case, there was even a two hatter (of menial intelligence and superior obsession) who was able to override the DOCTORS and deny substance abuse patients access to trauma counseling. So no, Clara, no help. No support.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
becket
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:29
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I forget: were you captive?
I forget: were you captive?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:39
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Becket, that's completely
Becket, that's completely irrelevant. I was seeking help and paying (and/or willing to pay) for it. As far as I'm concerned, that side of it is a consumer issue. If anyone else selling a service predicated its value on the consumer's willingness to believe in it, they'd be shut down for fraud.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
becket
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:38
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Then start up a consumer
Then start up a consumer advocacy shop on behalf of drunks and junkies. Save them all from their hope, their faiths and themselves.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:46
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Becket, it's a fairly clear
Becket, it's a fairly clear cut issue. People are being charged tens of thousands of dollars for rehabs in which they are being abused and/or treated unfairly. Not to mention not helped--and given VERY LITTLE HOPE. That should be regulated, don't you think? If only on a consumer level?
Working on it;)
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
becket
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 15:32
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Regulated how? Everything
Regulated how? Everything should be uniformly a-religious? Or should rehabs be categorized? Atheist rehab, agnostic rehab, Roman Catholic rehab, Southern Baptist rehab? What training should the employees be required to have, and should the religious rehab admins have doctorates in divinity? Should they let the patients run if they escape? Should all patients have an attorney present when they sign themselves in? What?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 16:18
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They're somewhat regulated in
They're somewhat regulated in that they have to be licensed in the first place, Becket. Yes, though. Places that charge that much money for a supposed service should have to prove what it is they're selling, and that their treatments are effective. Again, that's nothing other businesses aren't having to do already. Are you suggesting that these places be able to stay outside of this scrutiny? Because that is really, really absurd. I realize you're just arguing to argue, but still.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
becket
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 16:58
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I am not arguing for that.
I am not arguing for that. My examples are extreme, but so is the situation. I think there should be treatment modalities tailored to people's beliefs and the things that they trust, not the other way around. No one should be forced to swallow the bitter "Take It Or Leave It" pill. That creates angry distrusters. There's something to be said for making a good impression the first time.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 17:32
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Agreed, Becket.
Agreed, Becket.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Clara
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:22
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Yes, you've made that clear.
Yes, you've made that clear. But what do you propose be done for criminals that cannot be mandated to AA because it is secular, yet there are no other SMART or anything else? HAMS is out of the question because while on probation, you aren't supposed to be learning to modify. They want you to stop entirely.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:44
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I've said it so many times I
I've said it so many times I don't feel the need to restate it. I don't think the implementation would go smoothly either. In short: I have no problem with the idea of taxation nor with paying my taxes, and wish they were being used more appropriately.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
becket
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 13:26
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Maybe the "stepper" should
Maybe the "stepper" should stand behind his convictions and educate the employer. Change doesn't happen overnight. It often comes about through generations of abuses and intolerable conditions, not to mention stipulations that require employees to relinquish their own legitimate rights.
If a "stepper" is whining that what is happening to him is constitutionally illegal but still wants to make those payments on his summer home or pay off his kid's '53 Corvette, fuck him. He ain't got no room to complain.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Pennywise
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:48
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If a "stepper" is whining
If a "stepper" is whining that what is happening to him is constitutionally illegal but still wants to make those payments on his summer home or pay off his kid's '53 Corvette, fuck him. He ain't got no room to complain.
That's pretty naive, especially in this economy.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Trisha K.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 14:54
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And you totally missed the
And you totally missed the point of her comment.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Clara
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 15:34
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Penny, why do you think SMART
Penny, why do you think SMART is ineffectual?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 15:38
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I don't. I don't really know
I don't. I don't really know that much about SMART. I've never said it was ineffective.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
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