Lets Talk About "Will Power"

Submitted by Soberman on Sat, 06/23/2012 - 06:55

My Question?
How do we define the will?
When and how does it occur?
Can I the alcoholic make the decision to never drink/drug again and never change my mind using will power?
Think about this?

Sober-man
Don't drink, do as you please?

Comments

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:49

Oh, you know the drill better than that, Clara. You say "no", they counter with some nonsense about "denial" or how you're "terminally unique". You just have to tune them out, really, and know that you're doing the right thing and that it IS your "best thinking" causing you to leave and do things on your own. Now that I have done it all, it's not as if their questions as to my methods would bother me. It was just annoying at the time. (I might add that thinking of a line from a movie in my head has little to do with whether or not I was being polite outwardly.)

WTH are you talking about with "Monica" having called you? Did I miss something upthread? What did you not want to hear from her after 5 years?

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 09:25

I have mentioned her before on various threads. I love her dearly. Her boyfriend Kevin used to work on my rentals. Nice people until they get back into the crack.

It's just a shame. I have always taken her calls, even though I am 27 hours away from her. In MB, I used to handle the money that her parents sent monthly, and I learned more about inept cops... But she just doesn't move on from it despite rehabs, jails, NA, AA, physical violence, selling herself to dealers...

But that is the thing. If a person wants to leave AA, I never chase after them, ask them why or anything else. I just invite them to call me if they need me. Eventually, I did see most of them again come into the rooms. Some won't, of course. They find altervatives, move on, doesn't even mean they drink. But I have always been amazed at the posts I read about peope that feel they have to make a big issue out of leaving. God be with you. I wonder both why they do that and what do they really expect/want others to do or react? On the other forum, someone made a big deal about it at someone's wedding, and then complained that no one called him despite everything he did for the fellowship, and racheted it up to then complaining what they called about when they did... Just mosey on, and if our paths are meant to cross again, they will.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 09:45

(Redacted text) I tried to go quietly, actually. I tried very hard to just fade away from these people.

Perhaps the people who seem to be offending you had similar experiences to mine. In any case, you really seem to be letting yourself be bothered by them.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:52

It doesn't offend me. I don't understand it. Just go. If I was offended, it was at his need to make a show of leaving AA and using a social situation to do it. Classless and sef-centered. But if you read the rest of it, where he got offended that no one called him and then reoffended when they did ... after all he did for AA... I mean, give it up. He chose to leave. Did he want people to beg him to stay? OOr to say, "guess I'll go, too..."

If you tried to just fade away, then fine. I am sure that some people missed you that had felt they befriended you and called. But hen you say no, that's fine.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 09:50

"But she just doesn't move on from it despite rehabs, jails, NA, AA, physical violence, selling herself to dealers..."

I guess that's what happens when you take only the parts of the Program you like and ignore the rest.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 13:36

What works for some...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:47

But isn't that inherently dishonest, Clara? I have often wondered about that aspect of the program, especially when contrasted with their calls for "rigorous honesty". You either give yourself over to it (honestly) or take what you want and leave the rest, which negates the first directive.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 15:01

Rigorous honesty applied to yourself. No hold barred look at yourself, the life you lived, what alcohol did and the role it played, and if you had a part in it, what was it? Every alcoholic has a different story, although many may be very similar. People have different needs.

Rigorous honesty is one of the most abused things I can think of. It doesn't mean that you have to answer someone's question, or to not use tact, or to use it as an excuse to lose social filters. The first time the phrase is used relates to being honest with ourselves.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 15:33

Yes, Clara, but that is irrelevant to the point I was making. You either surrender to the program or you take some and leave the rest. To me it felt dishonest to say I was "working the program" while throwing stuff out. Which is fine for me, really, I developed my own that worked better than me, but I do wonder how others who stay in deal with that. I guess they aren't bothered by glaring contradictions.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:05

Perhaps they don't believe they are contradictions. I have people on this bog that think I am not practicing a 12 step if I am not willing to go in neighborhoods where Anglo women should be, or that I don't believe in AA enough if I am not willing to crawl on my hands and knees over broken glass on a tarred road. What someone thinks of your program or mine is irrelevant.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:12

"not willing to go in neighborhoods where Anglo women should be..."??

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

gigi

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:21

woah! what?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:33

Whether Anglo or not, there still exist in every city and town neighborhoods where women should not go alone. Her point was a lack of safety, not a statement of racial misbehaviors.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:39

It was still funny. Clar said she was not willing to go where white women go.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

gigi

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:39

"Her point was a lack of safety, not a statement of racial misbehaviors."

How can you be so sure? Someone who was not at least a bit racist wouldn't need to qualify the word women with Anglo.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:40

true

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:47

What, Anglo is not a word? It's better than white. What would have been preferred? "Caucasian"? Or perhaps to just not refer to race at all and have a part of the impact of the post circle the drain? You want to pretend neighborhoods populated with gangs are safe for a woman to drive through or walk through? I'd like to see some proof of that. This society is so fucking full of bullshit correctness dogma - and you all welcome it as a way to derail a blog. What does it have to do with the topic? Nothing. NOTHING.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 18:44

PIE, your so gender, ethic, and demographic sensitive, it is impossible for anyone to be human in your presence.
Clara's comments are not the problem here, PIE.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 19:03

Me, Trisha? Hardly.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:51

Because I'm a woman who has lived in these neighborhoods in East Oakland. I'm a woman who has been attacked and abused, interestingly by ignorant Caucasian boys and men. Why would she even have brought it up otherwise?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:54

Becket, I just was wondering what she meant. Her sentence was so poorly constructed that many interpretations were possible. Most of them hilarious.

Sorry you didn't enjoy the East Bay, btw.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:00

The East Bay is gorgeous, I have many, many good old friends there. East Oakland is a cesspool. More gunfire there than in any military training exercise anywhere.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:04

Yes, and people pin it frequently on the ethnicity of those involved, even while others of the same ethnicities live throughout the rest of the Bay Area and engage in none of that behavior.

And, in any case, you're not Clara.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 20:11

No I'm not Clara, but I find it reckless and naive for a woman to get caught in the barrio alone, particularly after dark. It has nothing to do with ethnicity. It has to do with self-preservation on her part and probably poverty on their part, among other things such as addiction and alcohol dependence and no supervision and everything that seems to accompany poverty.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 20:18

Jesus Christ, Becket.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 00:59

What, you got a problem? Or have you always live in the sense-dulling suburbs? Ever been the victim of a genuine crime? Ever had to identify the criminal? What did you say?

Yeah, right.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 18:48

I am sure you understood it, PIE. You just chose to take offense that was neither intended nor implied.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 18:57

I understood what you meant by your comment about white broads CLar. You have to admit it was funny the way you worded it. And I have no doubt that you are welcome in Bel Air, or Calabasas and even Beverly Hills.

So Iowa huh? We could be relations.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 19:14

Yes, I said "should" when it should have been "shouldn't." But the fact is white people are described as Anglo here.

Any Spencers in your family tree? Foremans?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 19:19

I don't recognize any of those names, but my aunt Cathy keeps those records. I will be going up to Iowa for a family reunion on July 8th. She should be there.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 19:34

There are many others, too. Missouri Valley was a railroad town, as was Council Bluffs. My GGF and his brothers were shoe shiners and ran a shop in downtown Omaha. He managed the shop until he secured a job on the railroad. He married my GGM and moved to Council Bluffs. The rest of the family is Irish. We were surprised to discover that they were LDS as we thought the family was irreligious, but we couldn't reconcile the fact that three sisters had 16 children by one man. Of course, MV was on the Mormon Trail and this was not too long after white men started settling the county.

I sometimes miss the midwest and the great corn.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:09

Because I live in El Paso. What do you think white people are called here?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:16

Tea partiers.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:41

LOL!

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 18:51

You don't know anything about El Paso. It is a Democratic city.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:31

Gigi, you know so little about me and even less about El Paso for you to even make a remark like that. And it should have read "shouldn't go," but I am sure you got it even if FOD didn't.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:36

Yeah. We all got it, Clara. All those dark people are still out to ravage innocent little white women. Making a note of it.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:48

Do you live in a border town, PIE? If not, please don't assume you know the dynamics. And please don't forget that there was a time in our history when my own Greek father was considered colored by the good folks in his Iowa hometown.

I think you and GiGi deliberately derailed.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 19:05

Yes Clara, I'm familiar with it. I've lived in quite a few places, even if I don't name them on here. I don't doubt it about your Dad, though.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 19:08

I think it was a product of his era, but it happened as late as the 1950's.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 18:53

Clara, this doesn't even deserve a response.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

gigi

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:40

You're right that I know nothing about El Paso.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:46

Nor about me, GiGi.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 20:03

Yeah, how would anyone know anything about you?

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:40

There was a poster on the board that suggested I was a poor AA since I wasn't willing the carry the message, going to any length necessary to reach alcoholics in need. These were some examples he posted.

The point is that your program is your own. Whose to judge, especially if it works and you are happy and sober?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:47

Someone on this board mentioned neighborhoods you should or shouldn't be in based on your whiteness? Really?

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:57

I'd like to take you down to Flatbush or Brighton Beach or Bushwick or Canarsie and drop you off to make your way home after dark, alone. Then you would understand that these racial stereotypes, unfortunately, persist for a reason.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

gigi

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:13

Becket, please don't assume that some of us here have not walked and/or lived in those areas or places very similar to the one's you mentioned. I get it. That doesn't mean I like it or that I should sit by and say nothing if I see the stereotypes being perpetuated.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:50

You'd still be wrong in this case. There are surely parts of El Paso where my race calls into question why I would be there...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:11

The party was trying to stretch the willingness to go to any lengths necessary and 12 step calls. It just got to be ridiculous.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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