Lets Talk About "Will Power"

Submitted by Soberman on Sat, 06/23/2012 - 06:55

My Question?
How do we define the will?
When and how does it occur?
Can I the alcoholic make the decision to never drink/drug again and never change my mind using will power?
Think about this?

Sober-man
Don't drink, do as you please?

Comments

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 06:58

I believe one could. I am only powerless if I succumb and take that first drink. As I started to heal and get back to some form of sanity through recognizing how bad it was, I gained resolve. I needed some help getting there, though.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:32

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:38

I love it!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Anthro

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 17:12

cool crab....the alkie brain dead crab!

Anthro

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 09:09

Clara said: "I am only powerless if I succumb and take that first drink."

Pennywise says: Better go back to Stepper School.

"You may think this an extreme case. To us it is not far-fetched, for this kind of thinking has been characteristic of every single one of us. We have sometimes reflected more than Jim did upon the consequences. But there was always the curious mental phenomenon that parallel with our sound reasoning there inevitably ran some insanely trivial excuse for taking the first drink. Our sound reasoning failed to hold us in check. The insane idea won out. Next day we would ask ourselves, in all earnestness and sincerity, how it could have happened." pg 37

"Our behavior is as absurd and incomprehensible with respect to the first drink as that of an individual with a passion, say, for jay-walking." pg 37

"Not only had I been off guard, I had made no fight whatever against the first drink. This time I had not thought of the consequences at all. I had commenced to drink as carelessly as though the cocktails were ginger ale. I now remembered what my alcoholic friends had told me, how they prophesied that if I had an alcoholic mind, the time and place would come - I would drink again." pg 41-42

"Once more: The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power." pg 43

"They had said that though I did raise a defense, it would one day give way before some trivial reason for having a drink. Well, just that did happen and more, for what I had learned of alcoholism did not occur to me at all. I knew from that moment that I had an alcoholic mind. I saw that will power and self-knowledge would not help in those strange mental blank spots." pg 41

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 09:29

Thank you for your verbose response, Penny, but please recall that I took from AA what worked for me and left the rest to others.

I cannot say for certain that a time won't come when I won't have that defense against the first drink, but I know what to do if it does. If I give in, then I have given in.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 11:01

How can "you" give in if you have already turned your will over to a higher power and have had a spiritual awakening?

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:45

Have you ever heard people say they take back their willl? Disregard what they know and believe to be the correct choice?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 15:07

When I went to AA I wanted to get sober. I had no designs on becoming a saint. I got sober, I learned some good stuff, I left. I'm shocked at how few people go into AA with any possession of their intuitive abilities. It's all adaptable stuff. Bill Wilson was a man, with a man's idea of the way things worked. If I can't swallow the Christian bible, I'm sure as hell not gonna try to gulp down the Big Book.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 15:51

If your powerless and don't have the willpower then you can't take it back. You claimed that you don't have it but then that you did suddenly and now that you took it back.

It sounds to me that you wanted to quit and you did just that, but are trying to sell the fact that you are actually interacting/exchanging wills and confidences with a HP.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:07

Oddly enough, I would pretty much define addiction (at least my own) as the complete subversion of my own willpower. I didn't have any for a while. I even could've been defined as having been "powerless". Utterly. However, it was when I was able to take that back that I became no longer either powerless or addicted.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:28

I thought AA's deal was powerlessness over alcohol, not powerlessness over every single detail of life. When an AA member says he is powerless over alcohol and that his life has become unmanageable, that means unmanageable because of a dependence on alcohol, nothing else. I never understood turning my will and my life over the care of God as I understood him to mean in every conceivable situation: I turned over the drink problem, not the what-dress-to-wear-to-the-boss'-party problem. I still had free will to conduct business, to choose what I wanted to eat, to decide where to live, to apply for a particular job. What is all this powerlessness over everything every moment? Is that how you interpreted Step One? Wow.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:13

Yuip, detractors can stretch anything...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 08:42

"Our behaviour is as absurd and incomprehensible with respect to the first drink as that of an individual with a passion, say, for jay-walking." pg 37"

Maybe we just like drinking. Ive not actually been to a soccer game for years (only watch them on TV now) I may go to another game one day, does this mean that I have a football addicts mind, the time and place would come - I would go to a football match again?" Scaremongering cult BS.

Four former friends of mine have quite drinking for quite a few years now, without any stepper meetings. They are happily not aware they are in this imaginary danger nor that they need to confess character defects and seek through prayer and meditation and whatnot and go to those pathetic cult indoctrination sessions for life. Sometimes ignorance is bliss :-)

Long may they remain ignorant of stepper cult BS.....it may well save their lives

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Soberman

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 12:34

Which comes first, the thought or the action?
I think that I will take a drink.
Am I free to think?
I think not!
Soberman
Don't drink, do as you please?

SPK77's picture

SPK77

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 07:46

At the root of willpower is the debate of choice. Many AAs believe that they no longer had the ability to choose, that craving had overcome their human willpower of choice whether or not to drink. All over the world in war torn countries humans survive in the throws of genocide, ethnic cleansing, poverty. Heck, even disabled people have climbed to the summit Mount Everest (Tom Whittaker was the first). The human willpower is very strong. Medical science has hypothesized that in many addicts that the hedonic set point has raised to such a level that they no longer receive pleasure (anhedonia) from the most simple of things' i.e. one drink, one line of blow, so they seek more and more. This can help to explain the loss of willpower and the "phenomenon" of craving. I don't know the answers, just a thought.

Soberman

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 12:37

Do you have free will to think?
Sober-man

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:26

AA definitely isn't about willpower, it isn't even mentioned. You have "give" yourself to the AA god and it will "cure" all ills. They don't want you to think. They even say,"leave your brain at the door" when you go to the Bill Wilson ritual chanting ceremonies. Unfortunately, they "forget" to pick it up on the way back out.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Soberman

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 12:38

Sober-man

SPK77's picture

SPK77

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 07:50

It took a hell of a lot of willpower to attend AA meetings for three years, listening to people parrot lines from an archaic delusional text giving me terrible advice believing it was the only was to stay sober. I never bought much of the religion, but stayed sober in spite of it. Is that an example of willpower?

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:17

Hi SPK, I'd say it is a sign of intense willpower. People telling us that we can't do it and that we are powerless without them, or AA, or God, is an attempt to take control over us. Others thrive on that while we lose faith in ourselves. It's kind of like people in water and one uses the other as a life preserver.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Soberman

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 12:39

There is no such thing as free will?
Soberman

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 11:49

Willpower is tricky. So much of it for me relies on my confidence. If it's a reasonable quest and I am determined, with a belief that my goal is attainable, then I will acheive it. Unfortunately I've in the past relied to much on ouside sources to encourage me. I've also been influenced negatively.

XA is terrible for positve reinforcement! Most people that I know think that 12 step groups are full of support with members cheering others on saying things like "You can do it!". Yet it's just the opposite and chants such as "I can't, God can" are more of the norm. It's ridiculous imo. AA strips members of their belief that they have the strength to say no. There is no proof whatsoever that an outside entity keeps anyone sober.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:21

But it still takes me back to an earlier conversation with both you and PIE. If we have the power to say no, why didn't we? Why did we end up with numerous DUIs, trips to rehabs and hospitals for overdoses, get led into illegal behavior whether we got caught or not...

It's not really enough to say "I did this all by myself" when we'd had every other form of "treatment" known out there. Could it be that enough of any of it sunk in or is "sick and tired of being sick and tired" in there somewhere? If it is just willpower, how did we get addicted to begin with...?

I have often said if I had come to AA in EP as my initiation into the fellowship, I probably wouldn't have stayed. I didn't relate to it at all. But in MB, it was just what I needed to start a new life and to believe it could happen for me. If I had stayed in Annapolis, I don't think I would have been able to do it. I guess I did a reverse geographic cure...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:29

Clara, no. Those people get no credit for what I did, nor do they deserve any. Don't imply otherwise.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 09:20

I was one of the unique addicts. I either didn't want to or wasn't ready. Although difficult, it didn't have anything to do with not having the ability to stop.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:46

Are you sure? You would voluntarily end up in the rehabs and nuthouses you did and still put drugs before your husband and children?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:17

The personal repercussions of my decision to use didn't have anything to do with my capabilities of using willpower to stop. They only suggest that it was difficult, which it was. Btw, "nuthouses" is a rather tacky word.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:43

So it was a choice to pursue those over other things that most consider holy even though you had the capacity to do otherwise?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:53

No. I used for a couple different reasons and it was a few years before it started complicating my life. When that happened I decided to make changes. I went to AA and NA were I was fed a bunch of crap that complicated the situation further. I was looking for help and support but received a mind fuck instead. I wish that I hadn't listened to any of it or ever set foot in the door, but I did.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 20:12

I am sorry it had been that way for you, Avo.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 06/24/2012 - 11:00

Your implications don't fool me Clara. You suggested that I put using and before my family, etc. and that shows me how much you try to induce feelings of guilt onto others. It's typical AA guru behavior that steppism teaches. Being an addict or an alcoholic isn't defined as being a person that uses at all costs, regardless as to how it affects people around us. This is stereotypical and although happens in some cases, it doesn't occur in all. Regardless of a person's status as an addict or not, people make mistakes and have faults. You made an assumption about me and presented a question to which my answering would come across as an admittance of wrong doing. Perhaps you have been taken lessons from your lawyer friend/sponsor.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 19:53

And more passive aggressiveness from the Soup Nazi!

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:32

Avo, not to mention that every success is generally greeted with protests that you might be getting an "ego" or just drowned out with constant observations of how bad you once were.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:47

I think everyone should be stroked for their successes. It happens whenever anyone gets a chip.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Soberman

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 12:41

Think again!
Soberman

msafrany

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:14

Willpower is the only way to stay sober. There is no other way. You make the choice and you will yourself to accomplish this. Even if you get duped into believing you are not doing it yourself, instead it is God doing it for you.
In the Big Book, Bill W defines using your willpower to practice his cult religion as the "proper use of the will". Stopping drinking using willpower without his religion goes against the will of God and does not work. So steppers naturally believe if things go their way, it means they are "in tune". If something goes to shit, "it wasn't Gods will". It is self-delusional nonsense.
Personally, I never had a problem using willpower to accomplish anything. I could even score dope nude in a snowstorm at three in the morning. No problem.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 08:18

Now, that's funny MSA. Dope at three in the morning. Nude, no less!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Soberman

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 12:42

Bull-shit?
Soberman

msafrany

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 13:54

No Bullshit. How are you going to accomplish anything without using willpower? Even if you stay sober by being duped into a cult religion, Bill W says you work the "program" using the "proper use of the will".
Unless you do not believe willpower is used to dictate your actions, I see no other way. But please enlighten me if you have come up with something else.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 13:57

Actually, technically speaking, it is using, not remaining sober, that requires willpower. After all, sobriety is the default state. Take a person in a coma who has no meaningful willpower at all -- he's sober.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:53

He is also unable to make decisions on his behalf. His willpower is inactivated as far as anyone outside of his mind and body are concerned. For some the coma becomes the default state. Why can intoxication not become the default state? Do you believe it's not possible to rewire the brain with substances?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 14:57

Sure the brain can be re-wired. But that does not mean they lose the power of choice.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 15:03

I suppose intoxication can become the default state when people do massive amounts of certain drugs like LSD. But for most people that is not the case. Ask any heroin addict going through withdrawals whether intoxication is the default and you'll see my point. If intoxication were the default, you would not have to continually put that shit in your body to stay high.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 15:17

Why would LSD be any different than alcohol or meth or heroin?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 15:25

Because I hear that if you take massive amounts of LSD you can be on a permenent high.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:22

I'd like to read some studies on that. I've never known anyone, nor have I heard of anyone, who never "came back". Has this been documented anywhere?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 16:26

I do. There were a few where I detoxed. One due to meth, one due to smoking a dipped cigarette. I thought that had been urban legend until I saw it.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 17:02

I knew a guy who ate a sheet of acid as child (hippy parents left it out). Maybe it is not true, I don't know. It does not matter to my general point here.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 15:02

"Sure the brain can be re-wired. But that does not mean they lose the power of choice."

How do you know this?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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