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Is there ANYTHING you feel AA does improperly?
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:49
Here, stick your head on this block and don't worry about the blade that's hanging over your neck.
Have you not been reading the posts?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:57
Not that I can think of, Decon. I understood from the gitgo that the BB was written for worst case scenarios and that some of it won't apply to everyone... but could if they kept drinking in a problematic way. It was hard at times to relate to bottom dwellers since I wasn't one, but it served as an example as to what was waiting if I kept it up. My sponsor was very good to me, and he and his wife made themselves available to me but only if I reached out. I didn't do the steps for months and I decided that I wanted to. I was already physicaly sober when I got to AA, but the head part took some time. He never told me that I personally would have to go to meetings for the rest of my life, but that some do and find it helpful and even fun. If AA has done anything improperly, it is by not having him teach workshops in how to sponsor.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:30
Has your coven of Alcoholics Anonymous members tried to reach out to the Muslim fellowship in Area 66 District 10 yet?
You should try ending one of your Alcoholics Anonymous Rituals with a prayer from the Quran to show that AA El Paso cares about the Islamic community. Maybe you can even get the occasion put in the El Paso Times?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:51
That is one of the silliest Wilsonisms ever! LOL. How can you still be an addict in your mind if you have quit using the addictive substance & shut down your addiction? Is a smoker still a smoker in their mind & still endangering their lungs, heart & everything else when they do not smoke cigarettes any more? Is a heroin addict still an addict in their mind & still hustling on the street every day to find money & then go buy drugs when they are no longer using heroin. Is an alcohol addict still an alcohol addict in their mind when they are no longer drinking alcohol & no longer damaging their liver & rest or their health. How come alcohol addicts can never be done & over their addiction even when they have not had a drink in years? Cause Wilson said so, that is why. Wow why does anybody buy into his Billshit? I did & its been very embarrassing to me that I ever did.
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 23:52
"but could if they kept drinking in a problematic way."
On the other hand if these non-alcohol dependent people (like you ) went to MM or HAMS it is quite feasible to suggest that they could have learned to control their drinking and go on to live a fruitful balance life, instead of wasting years in cult religion or even committing suicide because they believed they were in the grip of some non-existent ' spiritual disease' and they did not want to go to those morbid, sick, self-loathing meetings for life.
Just an alternative view point to self-serving conman, and sexual predator Bill Wilson’s
What do you think?
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 10:11
NoAAk, MM and HAMS are for people that are just doing what we tried to do, and those thngs are listed on page 23 in BB. We tried moderation and discovered it didn't work for us. I read Audry's book, and she even admits her method is not for alcoholics. I don't know why she bothered other than she still wanted to drink and couldn't accept that she had a problem with alcohol and is an alocholic. She found out in a way I hope never to replicate.
Now, I have a friend that believes I simply got caught up with a party world in the east coast village where we lived. But when I rebuilt life at the ocean, I sought out AA in part because I wanted to know abstaining people and I wanted to stay stopped. It worked out perfectly. But, to my friend, it simply proves to her what she believes. What she overlooks is that I lived badly as far as alcohol was concerned years before I ever moved to where we both lived.
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 13:22
Again have to ask. Why not just pray to God or your HP for the miracle to be able to drink normally & not like an alcohol addict? Why did God decide to let Wilson know that the only way to stop being an alcohol addict was to quit completely? Since its between each AA member & their HP or God can't they just pray for normal drinking instead of giving alcohol up totally & for life? Why is the miracle so selective?
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 14:03
"Why did God decide to let Wilson know that the only way to stop being an alcohol addict was to quit completely?"
What makes you think God had anything to do with the conclusions Bill Wilson came to?
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 14:11
Besides, if you want to moderate, AA isn't for you. AA is for people that want to STOP. Why quibble with it? People make it out as if there is sometihng wrong with wanting to abstain completely from substances. Just because you drink, does that mean there is soemone wrong with another that doesn't want to? Sounds like some projecting to me.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 03:36
AA is for people who want cult religion. I belive many if not most (including you) stepper true beliivers can probably drink alcohol saftley. But they don't want to, they enjoy the cult BS.
Control Freaks and Sexual Predators love stepper cult meetings
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 07:08
Like Orange, I choose not to find out. You see, you wanted to go back to the drink and abstinence was never what you wanted. Of course you would find fault with AA or any other program that has abstinence in mind. People that come to AA thinking it is going to teach them how to drink often have this bad attitude about the program. Why not just say, he, it wasn't for me and then pursue your own brand of happy, joyous and free? Instead, you try to suggest to others that you have what I want, an ability to moderate. I don't want that.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 07:59
As usual we can expect a less then intelligent low class comment from you.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Sat, 06/23/2012 - 18:47
As you well know, that was Wilson's rap. Come on Becket, stop it, you are well aware of Wilson's rap & Billshit.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 12:21
Bill Wilson said he had a spiritual awakening. Fine, he had society's permission to say so. If during Bill's life other people chose to also believe, in their parallel worlds, that they could have a spiritual awakening, I find no contradiction or problem with that. If they were able to employ faith or reason or hope to craft and experience a metamorphosis, stop drinking, turn their lives around, and live without dependence on substances, I'm good with that. If they believed that God was behind the dramatic changes in their lives, I'm all right with that. Their beliefs were equal to mine in legitimacy and power.
If people believe just because they walk into a meeting they are automatically entitled to a sudden and lasting reprieve from the rigors of alcohol dependence, they are mistaken, because the instigating mindset is willingness, not arrogance. If they sincerely pursue change I believe they can experience change. Whether or not God is the driving force behind the change is immaterial. We may be inspired by someone else's core beliefs, but we are motivated by our own core beliefs, which develop and change and grow as we go along. The things that do not work for us we prune, even if they worked for the other guy. I have a greater understanding of this cult fear you have because your posts read like you really got sucked in, which illustrates a void self which you may have been looking to fill with anything, anything to fix it. This is not the fault of an evil, manipulative program. It can be attributed, instead, to emptiness and desperation.
People who enjoy some measure of success through AA (a cessation of drinking, a cultivation of positive qualities, an ability to integrate among peers, and any other benefits that can come from a broken dependence on substances) do not get it by simply attending meetings. There is a program to be followed. Some follow it to the letter. Others find their way around the things that don't sit right. And then there are those who balk from the get-go, and some of these achieve lasting sobriety through other means. And others never achieve sobriety.
I don't know why you insist on berating me for not knowing "a" and knowing "b" and not acknowledging it. You are sparring for no reason. I don't mind discussing these things, but making ill-found charges against me in an effort to buy time while you search for something to fight about is senseless.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 18:27
Unfortunately people who are desperate & vulnerable addicts believe a lot of what AA & members tell them. It would be really great if people who go to AA for help could be as prepared for it as you seem to write that they are. AA as you know rarely works regardless of working the program or not. Members do not explain to the addicts that AA does not work for that this is common. Members do not tell the truth that it rarely works & that they are that lucky less than 5% that it allegedly worked for. Instead members tell addicts it is their fault AA isn't working for them. A lot of AA members are not healthy & they give addicts endless "suggestions" including unqualified medical & psychiatric which has been unqualified since Wilson started it & it has always been & still is dangerous. The members are often brain washed & they often are self righteous & pious hypocrites. They often berate & belittle other addicts especially if any addict criticizes the program in any capacity including that it isn't working. Telling any already beat up addict that they should further beat them selves up & admit their many character defects that Wilson said they have. Oh Becket there are just so many things harmful & dangerous about AA & the members. But the biggest thing is it just doesn't work regardless of how hard over 95% try to make it work. They don't just expect to walk into a meeting & be cured but they are told over & over that it works & is successful instead of the truth & that is that it rarely works & fails miserable as a rehab method.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 03:42
"What makes you think God had anything to do with the conclusions Bill Wilson came to?"
We KNOW God had nothing to do with wilsons steps. Its just cult BS. What we are saying is that if God realy did have anything to do with steppism, he would miracle those who wanted to, to be able to drink normaly.
The fact is God does not work any miracles for steppers, its all lies to recruit the vulnerable and bemused.
Lies, misinformantion and fearmongering, the real program of AA, thats why people dispise your satanic cult
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 14:17
Why is it discounted the most of us that achieved sobriety got precisely what we asked for? Why do people conclude that drinking reasonably is the only option?
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 03:58
"Why is it discounted the most of us that achieved sobriety got precisely what we asked for? Why do people conclude that drinking reasonably is the only option?"
Most of you don't get sobriety in AA its only 3-5%, same as NO treatment at all. True AA success rate, 5% - 5% = zero.
Moderation/Harm Reduction is the way of the future and can't possibly do worse that AA. For you who love cult religion it is a serious threat to your way of life, no more vulnerable newcomers to prey upon, and the inevitable death of your cult.
I know its been discussed before, but I'll say it again, with your 6 drink a session alcohol problem, you are NOT a serious problem drinker.......you are just love cult religion and need to recruit others (whether they want cult religion or not) with lies, misinformation and scaremongering in order to keep your beloved cult alive
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 00:08
You really must have a weird sense of fun, if you enjoy constantly berating yourself in stepper cult meetings and other than inducing suicidal thoughts I can't see much point, in such self defeating practices.
However in your personal case, whatever floats your boat.
The problem is, what about the majority of problem drinkers, who do not enjoy your strange (to be polite) cult gatherings?
Are you people really so self-absorbed that none of you care a damn about anyone, but yourselves, whatever? Do you people have no sense of duty to others at all?.
Are you ALL, self-seeking, con artists, same as your founders were?
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 10:04
Who says I berate myself, NoAA?
I do have a sense of duty. Part of that is to counter the notion that all AA experiences are like yours.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 04:17
"Who says I berate myself, NoAA?"
All steppers berate themselves publically, they seem to have a completion to see who can berate themselves the most. Its part of cult 'bearing witness' I was so bad until I came to 'wonderfully AA' and God took away my shortcomings and turned me into a 'beautiful serene' stepper person. Its standard cult BS.....and its so so BORING
"I do have a sense of duty. Part of that is to counter the notion that all AA experiences are like yours."
But judging by AA's own terennial surveys, most peoples AA experiences are like mine, or at least NOT pleasant, that’s why most people leave after a few meetings, except court mandated and others similarly coerced.
Your real sense of duty, if you can call it a duty, is to attempt, with the same old stepper cult speak, to counter our arguments with cult BS, in an effort to keep bemused people in your cult.
The real question is whether you feel you need to retain people in your cult because you have been told it will guarantee your own sobriety, or whether you just need newcomers in your cult for it to exist so you can be a part of it for your own selfish reasons. Either way your sense of duty is to YOURSELF.
All stepper are self-obsessed. You need to be totally self-serving to promote this death cult. You need to have NO thought for others whatsoever to be a stepper true believer....you need to be a heartless, moral less, self server to promote steppism
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 07:09
You are wrong. I do not berate myself at all. You are making alot of conclusions that have nothing to do with me but with your own resentments.
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:00
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:06
it was perfect for me, DeCon.
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:36
Where do most of the prospects for the Alcoholics Anonymous Klan come from in El Paso?
You really should put in some service work and help the Intergroup with the "Sun-Dry" El Paso Area 66 District 10 Newspaper. They only have made Volume 1 Issue 1 in October 2011 and they should have more. I liked page 2 they have dedicated to DUI prospects.
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 23:43
"it was perfect for me, DeCon"
So did God remove all your shortcomings when you humbly asked him in step 7?
Are you now perfect?
When God speaks to you to give you your daily work orders to save alcoholics , in step 11, does he have a mans voice or does she have a woman’s voice? Or an 'it' voice like cousin It on the Adams family? Or does God talk in pictures as we are supposed to think? If you do hear voices regularly in your head, how do you know it is God? How do you know you are not just going mad and need to see a psychiatrist?
I'm not taking the proverbial, I really believe the 12 Steps really worked for you LOL. You obviously worked the program right (????), not like the rest of us who are constitutionally incapable and whatnot LOL
How many miracles does God work for you on an average week? Does God work more miracles per week for you than the rest of your home group? Who has the record for God bestowed miracles in one week at your home group? Is it you or does steppism work perfectly for all your home group and you all have the same amount of weekly miracles performed by God for you?
Do you really believe that non steppers (and probably most steppers, if they are actually Honest and not just parroting cult speak) take what you say seriously? Are you much more special to God than me, because I think the 12 steps are just cult nonsense and is that why God doesn't work miracles regularly for me?
How actually does the AA program work perfectly, how do you know it can't work even more perfectly, if you work an even stronger program?
Its just cult nonsense, end off
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 14:12
NoAAK, I will let your personal happiness speak for itself. 30 years ago you went to AA and you are a crusty, embittered person. If you can live with that, I can live with it for you.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 04:46
"and you are a crusty, embittered person."
That just standard stepper cult speak. I'm embittered, while you are a wonderful spiritual person with serenity and beautiful personess coming out of your ears because of wonderful AA and the God given message.................same old cult BS.
Theres a lot of evil in this world which makes me sick, cruelty to animals for a start, also the existence of your mind screwing death cult. I'm also happy at times, like I will be tonight if England beat Italy in the European Soccer Championships.
Different things in life make me happy and sad. AA suicides make me sad. If you are permanently wonderfully happy because you sit around in those cult meetings parroting crap week in week out, year in year out, then it just shows what a totally self-centred stepper you really are.
Theres a lot of evil out there in the real world, sadly steppism does not have a monopoly on evil
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 07:11
I am happy because I am happy within. It doesn't matter if I am sitting in a meeting or not, NoAAk. In fact, I go to few mettings anymore. But I don't think anyone can read your posts and find a happy guy in them.
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 16:05
Noak- why do you even believe in God if you think he's such a dick?
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 04:50
"Noak- why do you even believe in God if you think he's such a dick?"
I do not think God is such a dick. Many people are dicks...............steppers are Top of the range, grade one, Dicks with a capital 'D'. You'd have to be to believe in all that BS
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 07:00
You know, there are many things in the world that I do not believe in, but I cannot be reduced to calling a group of people names because they do. If AA works for someone, fine. It idn't work for you and you didn't stay. Somehow, your anger just doesn't seem justified. You sound as if you left last week, not 30 years ago.
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:37
I have noticed one thing that AA does, well, maybe not improperly, but it isn't the way I was taught: they put the napkin and all the flatware to the right of the plate. I hate that.
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 23:17
What about lying deceptive cult recruitment on national scales, fearmongering to the point of suicide and accepted as 'normal' large scale sexual predation of the bemused.......have you noticed that?
No don't tell me......"it never happened in my group".....there' nothing more predictable than a stepper......its called 'cult speak'.........the result of long term cult indoctrination
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 11:08
No, noaa, I never noticed any of that when I attended AA meetings.
Sun, 06/24/2012 - 07:01
But because of the traditions, things that happened in your group might very well not have happened in others. Look at the difference between Akron and NY.
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:54
Another reason to shut AA down! Make it just a part of our embarrassing American history instead of a current embarrassment.
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 22:21
The trolls on this site are spy's . PLanted here to divide our efforts. Ignore them at all costs.
We are making serious headway.
Thu, 06/21/2012 - 23:44
That is exactly why they are here....to hijack and screw up the OPF, or any other place where people can get info about escaping the cult and taking proper care of themselves. Thank you for your inspiring activism and tenacity, Massive. From what I've been seeing lately, WE ARE making serious headway! :-) There are just some changes that can't be stopped, now with the information superhighway of the internet. WE are alive, clean and sober, doing well for ourselves...and we don't need any cult religion! We are LIVING PROOF that the 12-step CULT is an absolute non-necessity for anyone's health and well-being! WE are the folks actually HELPING people! We are the ones on the "side of the angels" so to speak! I commend all activists and researchers who are exposing the death cult called AA - because THE PEOPLE WHO EXPOSE THE CULT FOR WHAT IT IS ARE THE ONES WHO ARE REALLY SAVING LIVES!!!
Because of folks like Orange, Jack Trimpey, Stanton Peele, and others who have researched, written books, and those who have taken the cult to task in the courts of this country, I am free! I was able to free myself from the cult thanks to people like them....and people like Massive! :-)
"There's a new sheriff in town."
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 09:41
There are so many members on your "recovering from recovery" site that are still getting high and members such as massive who wants to start drinking again. Maybe just a sip.
Are you going to deny this, I seriously doubt you will. Oh, then you have still some other members abusing ambien sleeping enhancer.
This is why you folks went dark with your conversations. It isn't about confidentiality or "we had to do this because we wanted to be safe". It is all about creating a place where you can all speak honestly about your current drug addictions and hide this fact from everyone else.
Kind of hard to spout off about the short coming of the recovery industry when you are still banging dope and drinking.
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 10:46
"Kind of hard to spout off about the short coming of the recovery industry when you are still banging dope and drinking."
Most adults of the Western World drink, you idiot. And lots of former problem drinkers can and do return to responsible drinking. I drink, I don't have to abstain totally. What I did have to do, was get rid of all your cult BS and start 'working' at a return to normal drinking.
Went down the pub to watch England beat Sweden in the European Soccer Championships last Friday. Beats going to the stepper meeting and listening to the same lies and BS I heard, word for word, 30 years ago.
Nobody really cares if some wacko like you wants to sit around with a bunch of fellow nutjobs, night after night saying "they told me" "I want what they've got" and whatnot. But most people don't want to do crap like that. Thats why you freaks have to scare them with jails, institutions or death and all your other lies and ludicrous claims.
The Anti AA movement are just trying to inform the vast majority of problem drinkers who don't want to listen to your cult BS, that they don't have to. Too bad if you won’t have much of a cult left when they all know the truth.....well too back for you sicko's, but good for the majority of problem drinkers who can then pursue whatever goal is best for them, Moderation, Harm Reduction or Total (non cult ) abstinence and also develop other interests, instead of just obsessing about some imaginary recovery from an imaginary spiritual disease (LOL). Thereby living a balanced productive happy life.....not turning into a cult zombie
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 13:54
"Most adults of the Western World drink, you idiot. And lots of former problem drinkers can and do return to responsible drinking. I drink, I don't have to abstain totally. What I did have to do, was get rid of all your cult BS and start 'working' at a return to normal drinking."
But we are not talking about responsible drinking. I am talking about people still doing dope, drinking irresponsibly and abusing pills AND coming on here high at night abusing members.
I guess I touched a nerve, NoAAUK??
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 14:00
You're an idiot :D
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 14:05
"...AND coming on here high at night abusing members."
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 14:22
Ask your buddies. I am definitely not giving out names. Oh, and then you have to expect them to get honest...lol.
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 14:30
I would think you'd be willing to back up such an allegation. Unless you're just making up stories for fun and amusement.
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 14:45
In all fairness, Gigi, when I see someone whose demeanor has changed, I wonder. When they look as if they typed their posts with their feet, that can be another tip off...
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 14:58
In all fairness, Clara, a lot of your posts look like you typed them with your feet. And talk about demeanor changing...do you read Trisha's craziness?
Fri, 06/22/2012 - 15:11
Yes, but they are always like that due to my wonky keyboard. We've made enough fun of it and know that it is always like that. People post in the morning and come back at night, and are as different as night and day, literally.