If you're using pills, you're not sober or living the AA way of life.

avogadno's picture
Submitted by avogadno on Thu, 06/21/2012 - 07:36

"The AA who takes pills is trading the devil for the witch. If you are using pills, openly or secretly, don't try to convince anyone that your sober or living th AA way of life. It just aint so."

~1948 Works Publishing, Inc

http://www.aaseny.org/archives/works_publishing/sedatives.pdf

Alcoholics Anonymous members pretty much say whatever they want. The open floor, no cross talk, meeting style gives all members a platform to speak their opinions to the group. Often times that it is a personal opinion and not the position of Alcoholics Anonymous is not specified. Such sensitive subjects such as medications and being really "sober" are often preached about in meetings. As to whether or not it represents AA as a whole, it doesn't matter. There is no one in charge of meetings to counter an over-aggressive speaker that gives advice about what meds are OK to take or not. This can (and has) led to problems over the years. People have even died or become quite ill after making a medical decision based upon an AA group's opinion about medical issues.

Sometimes people think that they shouldn't take medications prescribed by a doctor and this can lead to serious health issues. Because this is a highly sensitive and dangerous subject that has caused much controversy over the years, I think that the med issue should be part of each reading of every meeting. It's irresponsible that the readings pertain to repetitious and boring banter that is part of the main text of alcoholics anonymous, and nothing of important issues regarding health and safety. To me it shows that AA is more interested in selling/promoting AA rather than offering respectable and sound advice, and making sure that the opposite doesn't occur in meetings.

Comments

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 10:37

Avo wrote:
Members of AA have historically projected their opinions about using medications onto others by way of sharing during meetings. Unfortunately there are some warped views and whether or not it is the official position of Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't matter. It gets presented as such. One reason is because of the lack of regulating the meetings and letting people "lecture" to others without any correction. For example, a guru can say "If you take any prescribed medications such as a Benzo or Barbiturate then you aren't clean". This information is allowed to be absorbed by anyone listening at a meeting without it being correctly countered. Narcotics Anonymous holds their meetings in the same fashion. I've been to numerous meetings in both groups where I heard members speak their opinion as if it were obtained from official literature.

Trisha says:
I broke it down by sentence to rebut.

Avo wrote:
Members of AA have historically projected their opinions about using medications onto others by way of sharing during meetings.

Trisha says:
I'm sorry Avo, I don't see alcoholics sitting in meetings telling ADHD members to stop taking Ritalin or Adderall or better yet the members who are on pyscho-tropic medications for mental and emotional dysfunctions.
I have witnessed members giving advice on going to see a doctor before you take any prescription drugs, you may have gotten with other means. I have also been a part of helping a member come off of prescribed drugs because they were just about killing the person.

Avo wrote:
Unfortunately there are some warped views and whether or not it is the official position of Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't matter. It gets presented as such.

Trisha says:
There are warped views being shared and usually these people are cut off in a meeting. I have witnessed it myself often. As a matter of fact this whole topic, you brought up Avo, is usually not condoned in a meeting.
We understand that there are people who must take medication, many of us do. But you are not talking about the people who responsibility take their medication, your article refers to the people who switch over to pills so they can continue to get high.
Sorry Avo, I am not going to stand by and watch someone hurt themselves because you are worried if I am playing doctor. I have butted in on two occasions I can think of and they are grateful I did. Both had to do with Xanax.

Avo wrote:
One reason is because of the lack of regulating the meetings and letting people "lecture" to others without any correction.

Trisha says:
This is totally incorrect. I am sorry you allowed this behavior to go on in your meetings Avo but we did not in the meetings I attended. Why would you just sit there and allow this to go on?

Avo wrote:
For example, a guru can say "If you take any prescribed medications such as a Benzo or Barbiturate then you aren't clean". This information is allowed to be absorbed by anyone listening at a meeting without it being correctly countered. Narcotics Anonymous holds their meetings in the same fashion.

Trisha says:
Because people such as yourself allow this to go on. I have witnessed people carry on about their opinions concerning taking prescribed drugs. This was happening either before the meeting or after but I have never heard anyone "soap boxing" during a meeting.

Avo wrote:
I've been to numerous meetings in both groups where I heard members speak their opinion as if it were obtained from official literature.

Trisha says:
Avo you do understand how ridiculous this sounds. What you are saying is, people in AA are so naive and feeble we can't tell the difference between an opinion from some person in an AA meeting and a Doctors opinion.
Let me say this though, I will not be so stubborn as to not acknowledge your point. There are some who attend AA, that are harassing others with their idiotic opinions.
I just will not agree that this is a wholesale problem in AA.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:11

blah blah blah ... you just wasted your time with whatever you wrote. I have no interest in reading your crap.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 10:39

Like I really care. Girl it isn't all about you.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 18:41

Fortunately for the lurkers, you refuted her garbage.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

dorak nob's picture

dorak nob

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 13:37

just think everywhere in the country mostly in church basements I can score

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 15:54

Dorak nob

yeah just about every meeting you can score. lots & lots of criminals are available. who has to go to a street corner in a dangerous ghetto just go buy @ a meeting!

patti

flannigan

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 13:38

Drats, I thought I was the UberGuru. I stand corrected.

rainbow's picture

rainbow

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 03:09

Y'all get off my throne, will ya? *I* am the UberGuru. :)

gigi

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 13:38

I've also heard many different people, in many different AA meetings, say similar things about medication (specifically antianxiety medication and antidepressants for the most part.) You're not really sober if you're taking meds, booze in a pill, if you work the steps you won't need meds, and my personal favorite, you don't need pills for depression because there's no such thing-you're just being dishonest about something. Pray for guidance and you won't need the pills anymore. I was personally advised to stop taking my doctor perscribed medication by someone in the program I trusted very much. Luckily, I didn't trust him enough to believe he was smarter than my doctor. I know that there of plently of people who do naively follow the advice they are given in the rooms.

To be fair, I've also heard plenty of people in meetings encourage people to talk with their doctors about medication before making any decisions and I've known a few who openly talk about how their medications have helped them greatly. Actually, as I'm writing this I realize that those I remember being open about their meds usually didn't share about it in meetings-it was more of an after the meeting type of conversation. Either way, how is anyone supposed to figure out what the AA stance is based on the conflicting messages heard in the rooms?

I think that the proposal you presented-reading a position on medication at the start of each meeting is a great place to start. Where do we start?

And Becket, I couldn't agree more with this statement. "If AA meetings have deteriorated to the point you describe, they are a worthless caricature of both the fellowship and the program." It's a damn shame, really.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 14:46

YOU don't, Gigi, because you don't go to meetings. It would take a person raising the issue at their group's business meeting and bringing it to a vote.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 15:48

Pardon me, Clara? Weren't you just bitching about all anyone does here is "blather on" about what someone else should do when it's the people complaining who should "be the change they want to happen?" So, I take it that what you mean is that we should only work to change something if it means starting a SMART or SOS or whatever group, but we should back off and keep our hands out of your program. Is that what you mean?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 16:06

Not at all. But you don't go to meetings. Do you expect to send a letter and say something along the lines of "I don't go to meetings anymore, and I don't believe in the program. In fact, I badmouth it every chance I get. But I think you should do this at the beginning of every meeting, even though I wouldn't come back if said changes were made...."

If you get any kind of response, it would probably be to tell you that each group per tradition can have its own preamble.

Why should AA change, Gigi? If you want different sentencing options, that is a different iscussion. But why should AA ever change because parties that no longer go think it should? What drives change in meeting format are the people that contribute and come to business meetings.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 16:19

Maybe they could make a power point presentation about it to help newcomers?

http://nwta66.org/forms/

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 16:33

Clara,
AA has needed to listen to members & ex members concerns with dangerous behaviors & actions @ meetings for a long time. AA has chosen over & over to ignore the many dangerous abuses that go on in meetings for a long time. AA won't first step & admit there are many problems & make amends or take any action to resolve the problems. That's why AA needs to dissolve. Its a dangerous environment that will not own up to being dangerous or take any action to provide some kind of safety for the vulnerable addicts whether they are voluntary or involuntary. Wilson created a group for himself to earn a living from its inception AA has been more about abuse & control than helping addicts stop an addiction. AA will never be a success & it will never be a healthy or safe environment. Its time to shut it down for good.

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:06

Naw. I seriously doubt that he started AA just so he could earn a living. This is fantasy on your part.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:11

Bill Wilson started AA so he could get pussy, make money, and perhaps most important to him, be thought of as a great man.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:13

You're awful, Penny. I seriously doubt he thought there'd be much action. There weren't many women in the fellwoship for a long time. It was very mae dominated at the beginning.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:23

"In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women." ~ Tony Montana

I'm not talking in terms of general 13th Stepping here. I'm talking about the bigger picture. Famous, powerful men tend to do well with the ladies. A large portion of everything men do is to impress females, whether they admit it or not. And a guru at Wilson's level is not limited to women in the Fellowship any more than a CEO is limited to the women in his corporation.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:37

That is the most pathetic male characteristic of all, Darwin notwithstanding. The bigger they act the smaller they really are, physically, mentally and emotionally.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:47

Maybe that is true in some instances. It is said by many that the best way to get women is to act like you are not interested at all what they think. But I'm not advocating game theory here. Still, it is an objective FACT that, in general, rich and powerful men have a tremendous advantage when it comes to picking up women.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:50

I would say rich and powerful men have an advantage over other men when it comes to picking up women looking for a big daddy, a gravy train, a meal ticket. Smart women know they will sacrifice themselves to be trophy broads if they get mixed up with shit like that.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:56

Many smart women want to be trophy broads. Heck, they start thinking about marrying a doctor before they are in junior high.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 16:00

Culture Collapse. We should dismantle any society that teaches its women that it is more important, more respectable, more fulfilling to be arm candy than it is to use their minds and be creative and productive. Incineration would be a good start; how else could this cancer be killed off?

I know. I'm talking about American culture, past and present, probably future. That's what gives the big boys their strut, keeping the little woman down. Pretty, fluffy, made-up in 5-inch stilletos, but down. It's fucked.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 16:09

Need I remind you of the "MidTown" fiasco of the sexual predators of the Mike Q. klan in Washington DC AA Area 13, who was the Sponcee of Clancy who one of our Myrtle Beach AA coven posters actively promotes along with opposite sex Sponsor/Sponcee trysts.....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:57

Agreed. Wilson had a huge ego that needed a lot of stroking. And he just couldn't cut it @ a real job. Observed Buchman controlling a lot of wealthy people & living off of them. Copied Buchmans steps & control tactics & started his own group to live off of & be "the Man" & get laid & be famous. didn't early AA members have a problem with Wilson interacting with the public, interviews etc. instead of being anonymous like all the other members. Wilson did have time for public stuff. other members had to work @ jobs. somebody had to work & earn!

patti

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:15

Well, in the grand scheme of things, founding AA was rather benign. Compared to a group like, say, the SIOA.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:12

"AA will never be a success . . . "

Don't ever let anyone here read any whining from you about the millions AA is sitting on, or about the fat incomes AA people are stripping off drunks.

If you contend that AA is a group Bill Wilson created for himself to earn a living and nothing else, you'd have to admit AA is pretty effing successful, even forty years after his death.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:59

I've always admitted that Wilson was a great con man, manipulator, exploiter & abuser. Wilson definitely ran a good con that still exists. as usual who gives a shit about addicts & if they are getting conned in AA or in rehabs? no one.

patti

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:39

You know that AA has never been & never will be a successful method to quit an addiction. Less than 5%. Turning ones will over to God & then working the steps have nothing to do with quitting an addiction. Its a cult not a rehab method.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:47

Who are you talking to, patti?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 16:35

Gigi, but she was doing that while blathering on about all of us. Doesn't the one sort of negate the other? In any case, it's still meeting think. "Start more meetings". Ugh.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:07

Perhaps, but if you want alternatives to AA, you should be willing to create SOS meetings or SMART.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:36

Clara, why should I be willing to throw my lot in with anyone at this point? Why do you assume everyone has to operate as a member of some group? My interest is the treatment industry, regardless, and me starting SOS or SMART groups would do absolutely nothing about the area of my interest in this. Nothing. It would be pointless. I have far better things to do with my time, especially in the area of the treatment industry. I should be willing because you're heckling me about it? Not likely.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:48

I am not heckling you at all. I guess I just think that these people that are so adverse to AA should already know the flaws in their efforts. I wouldn't even know who you would send a letter of suggestions to... Let's say you DO write your letter and send it to AAWS or GSO. Chances are you are going to hear just what I've already said... but that an experienced AA would probably already know.

Each group has autonomy per the fourth tradition. I've already said what I do in certain circumstances, yet I never hear anything positive about it. On the two occasions I've heard someone say something about meds, I've both concerred and countered it. A bipolar woman may very well have been misdiagnosed and stopped taking her meds once her crazy drunk behavior stopped. But that isn't going to be true for every bipolar person that looks into AA. I have also taken it upon myself to contact a porbation officer about the presence of a person in the room that was mandated not to have proximity to children. The meeting was in a church with a playground and a school. The meeting met while school was in session (lunchtime) The guy is free to go to any AA meeting he wants to as long as he isn't exposed to children. He can be any place as long he doesn't have that exposure, even AA. I tried to suggest that to a certain someone that if she is sure that a mandated person isn't to be around children, she can notify the PO even if the guy isn't going to the meeting but just visiting the park. That's the way to handle it, not scream and try to disband a meeting that has as much right to be there as anyone else with the current laws and ordinances as they are...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:04

If I had to look for something, it is the powerlessness over the first drink.

I know that if I sat down today and had a brandy, I might not stop at one. Maybe I would, but I don't have a reason to think so because I never drank that way. I cannot guarantee my behavior after that. I drank for effect, not simply just because I liked brandy. I had to acquire the taste because I liked the buzz. I can say no to a drink today, have no cravings and I feel that once I got myself together, I could operate on willpower. It would be a decision to drink now. But I don't feel powerless over the decision now.

I am not sure if that makes sense...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:22

Clara, I think you have me confused with someone else. Or a few other people, at least. I have no interest in writing letters to the GSO or AAWS. Nor am I trying to disband any meetings, in public parks or elsewhere. If you're just doing a general OPF PSA here, that's fine, I'm just clarifying that I'm not interested in the things you mentioned above, despite the fact that you worked them all into a response to me....for some reason....

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:23

Trying to consolidate is all. Making soap for our ladies meeting.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:29

LOL Clara, is that what you do? Collect stories here to share at your ladies meeting?

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:42

Not really. I have shared sadness that not all have had the experience I've had. We have an anniversary to celebrate so we are planning a little bit of an event with gift bags.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:56

Do you go to just women's meetings? I've never been to a women's meeting, oddly enough. Do you mix that up or just stick with the ladies?

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 20:49

No, I go to a mixed meeting with my husband in Las Cruces. That's once a week. We ride the bike and have lunch with my sister and BIL.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 21:04

Ahh...sorry, you threw me off with the ladies meeting reference. On the Harley, eh?

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 21:16

Yes, on the Harley to the mixed meeting. I don't drive it. I've always said I go to meetings in NM. The ladies meeting is conducted in a longtimer's home.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 21:20

Barnett Harley-Davidson
8272 Gateway Blvd. East
El Paso, TX 79907
915-592-5804

Can you recommend them?

Oh yeah, I have been emailing your delegate for El Paso AA Area 66 delegate@nwta66.org he says we can talk when I get there.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 21:32

I don't see that Barnett rents bikes, but you could go down there and buy one. They're open on Sundays.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 08:58

And they stay open for special events, even if that might not be on the internet. That's true of most Harley dealers taking advantage of high ride times because of the service departments. When the Run to the Wall was taking place over Memorial Day, all dealers on the route had dinners, breakfast, lunch, waterings and service departments open open at regular hour and even at extended hours. It's a very accomodating society.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 09:21

Beckett, Barnett El Paso does lease bikes for 149. a day. Generally you would get Sunday for free, turning the bike in on Monday. But, yes, they are open this Sunday because of a blood drive. You must be confusing Barnett's El Paso with its sister location in Las Cruces, which doesn't lease bikes. Remember too that just because a service department may be closed, that doesn't mean that the sales department isn't up and running for a location. Money, money, money!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 11:04

Texas state law prohibits sales on Sundays.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 21:33

No, I was just asking because you mentioned a ladies meeting. I was wondering what those were like is all. It doesn't sound too incongruous that you'd go to meetings in NM. El Paso's practically there anyway. But then you said you went to mixed meetings, just lost me for a minute there.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 08:56

I know women whose entire AA careers were spent in ladies meetings. In fact, that is where the ones that I know with pain med addictions tended to congregate. they are a bit more intimate. Things are discussed with comfort that someone might not choose to disclose in a mixed meeting. It really feels more like a bunch of girlfriends getting together.

El Paso is much more of a NM type of city than Texas, really. The people don't even have accents associated with Texas. It's so far away from everywhere else that you apend more time going to Albuqurque for better shopping than you would, say, Austin. When I was looking for dogs to adopt, I looked into Arizona rescues because even Tuscan is closer than any city in Texas with a good rescue. From El Paso to the easternmost end of Texas is 1/3 the width of the country.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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