If you're using pills, you're not sober or living the AA way of life.

avogadno's picture
Submitted by avogadno on Thu, 06/21/2012 - 07:36

"The AA who takes pills is trading the devil for the witch. If you are using pills, openly or secretly, don't try to convince anyone that your sober or living th AA way of life. It just aint so."

~1948 Works Publishing, Inc

http://www.aaseny.org/archives/works_publishing/sedatives.pdf

Alcoholics Anonymous members pretty much say whatever they want. The open floor, no cross talk, meeting style gives all members a platform to speak their opinions to the group. Often times that it is a personal opinion and not the position of Alcoholics Anonymous is not specified. Such sensitive subjects such as medications and being really "sober" are often preached about in meetings. As to whether or not it represents AA as a whole, it doesn't matter. There is no one in charge of meetings to counter an over-aggressive speaker that gives advice about what meds are OK to take or not. This can (and has) led to problems over the years. People have even died or become quite ill after making a medical decision based upon an AA group's opinion about medical issues.

Sometimes people think that they shouldn't take medications prescribed by a doctor and this can lead to serious health issues. Because this is a highly sensitive and dangerous subject that has caused much controversy over the years, I think that the med issue should be part of each reading of every meeting. It's irresponsible that the readings pertain to repetitious and boring banter that is part of the main text of alcoholics anonymous, and nothing of important issues regarding health and safety. To me it shows that AA is more interested in selling/promoting AA rather than offering respectable and sound advice, and making sure that the opposite doesn't occur in meetings.

Comments

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 08:27

exaggerated and maybe you are being disingenuous. The crux of your point here came from people who either suffered from addiction or witnessed the addiction in others. They gave an opinion of people who they felt were abusing pills. Which btw if you were google the outbreak of abuse of pills in the 40's - 50's with alcoholics and drug addicts, you would see there was a very large problem.
Avogadno you know that the % of active members that hand out this type of advice is infinitesimal at best.
Let's just get honest here and say Advogadno you picked the wrong article to represent your argument.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 10:38

It was made "before" they perfected saying one thing on paper and then doing another using circular logic. Now they take the "politically correct" medical stance to protect the prospect hunter storm troopers of the Hazelden Foundation which brings them many new captures to join the fellowship following the Minnesota Model of prospect hunting.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 10:42

This article reads to me like a statement regarding using "pills" (or any medications) in an off-label way or not as prescribed; i.e., using them to get high or get down. I don't read this as a prohibition of using medications as prescribed by an M.D. for a legitimate medical reason.

AA is ostensibly aimed at helping the alcoholic. Anyone in a meeting should curtail any talk about medications because it invites this sort of hillbilly scrutiny and gossip and blurring of boundaries on what AA can and cannot do (and please, no snarky opinions here about what AA cannot do - that's not the nucleus of this thread and it would just start a gratuitous derailing process).

I'm curious, avogadno, why you make these observations about AA - why you make suggestions on how AA could be improved. My impression of the OPF is that it is a place where most people gather to discuss ways to destroy AA, not to improve it. I must say it's refreshing to read a suggestion rather than a full-blown indictment. I'm keeping in mind that you're discussing AA and not NA, for NA meetings may be a bit more tailored to those who are seduced by pills. I only know what has been AA's platform since the beginning. If AA meetings have deteriorated to the point you describe, they are a worthless caricature of both the fellowship and the program.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 10:52

This is from the original covens of Bill Wilson chanters, they didn't want people to seek help from the medical profession, they wanted them to seek help from the high priests and priestesses of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous and pray to the AA god for a "miracle."

Part of the chanting done at every Alcoholics Anonymous ritual ceremony.

Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Step 3- Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

And don't forget the famous slogan, "Don't leave until the miracle happens." Too bad that is normally combined with "jails, institutions and death."

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 12:53

What does this have to do with taking medication, JR Harris?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 14:13

Should we discuss suggestions for improving the KKK? If not, could similar reasoning be applied to AA?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 14:52

Wow.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 15:36

people you really don't know or understand? Sometimes we end up behaving like a damn fool. Is this a statement you really want published with your real name attached to it or are you just another drama momma seeker here, looking for the sensation? It is addictive, ask around.

Note*
(Let me clarify, I don't know your name nor would I ever publish it if I did, I am just presenting a hypothetical circumstance. Lets not get nuts here.)

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 14:13

Pennywise wrote:
"Should we discuss suggestions for improving the KKK? If not, could similar reasoning be applied to AA?"

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 16:54

It's actually a good faith, open-ended question. Specifically, I am curious as to whether AA is redeemable. Now, I don't think the Steps work, and it is doubtful I'll change my mind. But that does not necessarily mean the whole program is worthless for everybody. So I am wondering whether AA is worth changing or whether it is so flawed that it should be scrapped entirely. I'm not 100% convinced either way.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:28

Are you entertaining the notion of being convinced either way, or is your post just a statement of where your opinion sits at this moment?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:51

It would be very difficult to convince me that there is a supernatural being that miraculously removes so-called character defects or that people are powerless over the choice to drink alcohol. On the other hand, it would be very difficult to convince me that AA does not provide a tremendous benefit to some alcoholics.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:45

Pennywise, is there room in your belief system for a supernatural being of any type, one that does not intervene or interfere or grant wishes or bow to the wishes of human beings? Or do you think that human beings here on earth represent the best the Big Bang (or whatever you believe in) could do?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:47

I would be suprised if such a being existed, but I would be open to the evidence. That said, the universe is a huge place, and I would also be suprised if we are the most advanced beings in it.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

teatotaler

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 23:51

That's the funniest comment I have seen in a long time. That is awesome! :-) I wish I could think of a good follow-up line. That was just too damned good! ROFLOL If AA can be improved, then by golly, I bet the NSDAP can be improved too!

"There's a new sheriff in town."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 11:20

AA's stance on meds is wellknown and shared with any number of other recovery groups such as SOS and SMART. If you are taking perscribed meds as directed. there is no opinion on it. Just another way to mislead lurkers about AA.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 11:32

What are you talking about Clara, your post clearly says"My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA", you are very confused? Have you been smoking that pot again, perhaps taking some prescription drugs. I understand that El Paso AA has a major problem with that. I called the Intergroup and they said they understand, they are interested in the Operation Sterilization RV that will pay their low bottom drunks at the groups that don't tithe to them. $300 bucks a pop, if they can get a 100 low bottom drunks to sign up, that's $30,000... a lot of tithing. I told them that the should call it "Operation Myrtle Beach."

http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1723

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 12:54

What does this have to do with taking medication, JR Harris?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:08

I'm certain that if any member at Smart meetings stated that others aren't really sober if they were taking meds would be corrected and in a sense hushed by their trained moderators. This doesn't happen in AA because they don't have moderators or regulators. The stance on meds is not "wellknown" as you say, but it should be. Of course, I'm glad that you are in a way saying that these types of things shouldn't be expressed at meetings.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

DeConstructor's picture

DeConstructor

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 11:31

Who continues a deafening silence in this matter. The medical industry continues to plead ignorance of the situation, sometimes quoting the propaganda of the AA faith in which AA evangenlists outrageously claim they do not 'play' doctors.

Anyone who has been around the rooms know this is an outright lie. The sputtering apologists for the AA faith on this board KNOW they are lying when they make their childish excuses for this very serious issue.

We need hidden cam video if this behavior, whether from in the rooms, or through sponsor counseling.

This issue needs publicity, because only then will the continuing excuse of ignorance of the issue become an invalid excuse.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 12:55

Is it legal to film an individual, not to mention a group, without their written consent? I don't think so. Even if you got footage you likely wouldn't be able to use it without being taken to court.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 13:12

Not if there is an expectation of privacy, which there is in AA. Now, this doesn't rise to the level of some sort of "client privilege" but it would wrong to film or record anyone in this environment. Besides, these people are simply giving their opinion. The AA position is printed in many pieces of literature, and that is that perscribed meds are fine.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 13:58

Check your local laws. Most certainly the pervs in "To Catch a Predator" do not consent to being filmed. That does not mean you can film anyone anywhere. Thus, it would be wise to check the laws in your state before filming anyone without obtaining consent.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 14:55

Remember the disclaimer on those shows about how they are presumed inncoent until proven guity in a court of law. It would be a stretch to think that you could go into an AA meeting and fim. Can anyone find out?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 15:44

http://stephen-j-ardent.quazen.com/arts/photography/the-war-on-photograp...

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

Hint: most newcomers meeting where Myrtle Beach slip signer manipulators praying on them are "Open Meetings."

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 15:51

You're operating under yet another misconception. There's plenty AA members can do if filming without consent is discovered, perhaps pushing the limits of the law, but still very effective.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 15:57

Who are they going to get a lawsuit against? "Open meetings" have no expectation of privacy, It's legal unless you're doing it in the bathroom. Ask Clara if her coven would come forward with all of the press it would cause? El Paso AA is a small underfunded cult with only $38k in reserves, they don't have many "rich" Myrtle Beach transplants there.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 21:37

Lawsuit? Who said lawsuit?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 16:15

I can understand it if it taking place in a public park, but if you are in an Alano Club, there wouldn't be any filming permitted and a board member could ask you to leave. That would be true even if the meeting was open.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 16:26

meeting, isn't it Clara?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 16:43

Its easy to record from a cell phone or camera without anyone being aware. Its simple to record anything anytime. Its likely it has already occurred multiple times @ multiple meetings. Bored people have the cell phones through out entire meetings. My son recorded stuff for years without any one knowing he was born & raised with this technology. It was boys being boys & he & his cousins enjoyed recording us all the time & we did not know we were being filmed. Its was funny when they would later play the recordings for us. I've never been to a meeting where someone wasn't drunk or high. Members are so self absorbed especially old timers they seem to get high from talking about themselves incessantly. Do you really think that someone couldn't be recording without others not noticing. No one @ AA is alert, they are too busy rapping, bitching, whining, crying & going off about their day to day mundane inconveniences. I know not in your group & not at your meetings.

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:01

No, Patti, YOU are too busy rapping, bitching and whining. Yes, I think someone one surruptitiously tape someone, but I can also find room for expelling someone for doing so. Even an open meeting isn't off limits. That just means anyone could come, but our preamble says to keep it confidential.

You must have had those most dysfunctional meeting in AA, patti. What did you do to change any of that?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:13

Because AAWS has made themselves Spiritual, not Religious, they don't have the confidentiality of a priest or a doctor. Oooops......... someone made a mistake.

http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1726

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:43

I rejected, fled & escaped. Thank God!

patti

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:48

You escaped to a place where all people do is talk about the thing they hate.

Way to go, patti. Good plan.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:10

Beckett,
So what?

patti

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:35

"So what?"

To escape something you break free and run. "Hell is of this world and there are men who are unhappy escapees from hell, escapees destined ETERNALLY to reenact their escape." ~ Antonin Artaud

Keep living it. Keep living it. Keep living it. Keep living it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:27

It's also despicable, reprehensible behavior, not unexpected from you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:11

Becket,
guessing this is directed to me. yeah, okay.

patti

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:08

Clara:

I think it might vary by jurisdiction. My hunch is that you are not entitled to as much privacy as you seem to suggest, but that is merely a hunch. Again, look at your state's laws.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 09:25

I am not trying to suggest that the confidentiality equals, say, attorney/client privilege, but I think anyone on the board of directors could remove someone that was filming a meeting in an AA club. People can be removed from meetings for any number of reasons, and I think that behavior would be at the top.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 15:42

DeConstructor,
Exactly, any one any one who has been in the rooms knows that AA members play doctor & the results have been disasters & tragedies. But, what do pro AA cult members always do LIE & DENY. As Avo writes this should be read @ the beginning of every meeting. Why not? Its a no brainer. Just read it. But AA doesn't like to be told what to do they do not like to relinquish control. Its a "suggestion" for them to take instead of direct & instruct. Also they will never do anything like read @ the beginning of each meeting that all members are to shut up about any & all medical or pharmaceutical advise. To do so would be to first step & admit there is a problem in AA. AA won't first step & admit there are any problems in AA, the unqualified & dangerous medical advise, the 13th stepping, the multiple abuses. AA just can't first step & AA & its members just can't be truthful. Instead they preach rigorous honesty but they can't practice it. The denials on this post, its endless the lies, the denials, the contradictions. That is why AA can't improve, it won't & really it can't its just too whacked. AA & all the stepper programs just have to go, its embarrassing that they even exist anymore.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 15:48

"Its a "suggestion" for them to take instead of direct & instruct."

And just who would be doing the "directing and instructing"? avogadno? you, patti? That's tantamount to John H Hammergren knuckling under to the demands of the pimply-faced punk in the McKesson mailroom.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 15:45

DeConstructor,
Eventually AA will be exposed. With technology someone somewhere will film or record some atrocious insanity & abuse @ a meeting & get it to the right media or law enforcement people. Its going to happen. The days of getting away with much of anything are over. Its not if its when. Its going to happen.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 15:49

What?! I thought you had already done such a stellar job of pulling back the veil, patti! Maybe you need a little help. Of course, this is meant to be suggestive only.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 16:52

Some coddled rich kids are going to expose AA & NA Beckett. The generations under 30 in this country are not going to put up with the Billshit the way older generations have. Someone is going to be forced to attend that isn't downtrodden or poor but is privileged & not accustomed to tolerating any shit from any one. That's who is going to bust AA or NA. Someone from the coddled generation & a privileged existence. Their Mommy's will probably do it for them. I have college graduates Mom's calling the HR Dept. to complain about any & every thing that goes on on the job where their kid doesn't feel coddled. These kids are never going to tolerate Billshit & they grew up in a litigious society.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:30

These coddled rich kids have rich attorneys and often just weasel their way out of doing any time or being mandated.

If you want so bad for AA to be "exposed", do it yourself and quit lounging in the wings waiting for someone else to do your dirty work for you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:49

beckett
it just doesn't matter what I want or don't want & what I do or don't do. irrelevant issue like a typical stepper. AA & the 12 step industry are going to be exposed for the fraud & scam they are & always have been since Wilson started his con. Exposing a dangerous cult that fails constantly & consistently as an addiction recovery method isn't dirty work. God, you are a drama queen/king.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 17:55

Then what does this drivel lead one to believe:

"Some coddled rich kids are going to expose AA & NA Beckett. The generations under 30 in this country are not going to put up with the Billshit the way older generations have. Someone is going to be forced to attend that isn't downtrodden or poor but is privileged & not accustomed to tolerating any shit from any one. That's who is going to bust AA or NA. Someone from the coddled generation & a privileged existence. Their Mommy's will probably do it for them. I have college graduates Mom's calling the HR Dept. to complain about any & every thing that goes on on the job where their kid doesn't feel coddled. These kids are never going to tolerate Billshit & they grew up in a litigious society."

You obviously have grave misgivings about all this shit. Why is it that you don't have a solution or a concept or an idea that is superior to this crap you're whining about? Are we to believe your mission is just to complain but not to offer your deep and compelling wisdom? Because there is a large number of your posts on this forum where you do pontificate and you clearly do have preferences, so it must mean that what you want counts for something, if only to you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:20

Becket,
Again so what? It doesn't matter if I pontificate, whine whatever. AA needs to shut down & be embarrassing history & not a current embarrassment. What matters is that eventually AA is going to get busted & its probably going to get busted by a privileged kid who isn't going to buy, eat or put up with some abuser AA members shit. maybe the wrong girl will get raped & she will be told by members to keep a lid on it for the good of the group & AA. or she'll be told to find her part in it & just keep her side of the street clean. I can't predict the future like Wilson could. But its likely an abusive group like AA is eventually going to get busted. Like other scams & other abuses. That AA has been exposed as an unsuccessful con & dangerous & crazy cult has happened. its just a matter of time.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 18:46

Then take your very large and uneducated mouth to whoever has the power to pack it in and give him your spiel. Good luck with that, Army of One.

" . . . maybe the wrong girl will get raped . . ."??!! As opposed to "the right girl"?? You're a disgrace.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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