If AA were to introduce a new, totally irrelevant to drinking, word or statement into its cult speak which would you prefer:-

NoAAUK's picture
Submitted by NoAAUK on Mon, 06/18/2012 - 00:42
Glockenspiel (a Percussion instrument)
10% (1 vote)
Bobby Ewing (Now Dallas is back on TV)
0% (0 votes)
“I fancy a tin of Spam!"
60% (6 votes)
Some other totally irrelevant to drinking Alcohol , Word, Words or statement, please specify in comments
30% (3 votes)
Total votes: 10

Comments

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 08:07

What we are doing here is debating? LOL!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 08:32

No, and we probably won't be in the near future, either.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 08:35

I would agree with that, PIE.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 09:22

I thought your self aggrandize behavior was accomplishing something entirely different. I'm sorry for mistaking c&e and yourself, as two spiteful b's, who were on a self promotion tour around this site.
Btw, I'm sure Clara could do without your immature remarks?

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 08:06

Clara
Tue, 02/28/2012 - 10:59

Permalink

Untrue. If you had told me
Untrue. If you had told me that I would be relegated to eating fast food for the rest of my life to avoid gourmet use of flambe, fondue, sherry in my favorite lobster or crab bisque, I would still make the choice to eat those things. I haven't heard of anyone telling someone that red wine vinegar qualifies, but each group is different, so I won't quibble. Ours didn't. Those things were your choices. But I did have lunch with an AA and I ordered the sherry with my crab soup and I plopped a spoonful of it in my soup. It bothered the other AA, but not me, and I told her so. Having said this, some people DO have to stay away from mouthwashes and the like. That's fine with me and their business.

Your example is skewed, so I will wait for a better one. Thank you for asking my opinion.

My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA>>

This is the original post, C&E. Tell me where I ever dated in the incident that I described. I didn't change anything. It becomes tiresome to have someone just believe what they choose to despite anything a party might post, and you've been the most guilty. You place me at meetings I never attended and never said I did. You claimed my "timeline" didn't math up when I wasn't posting a time line. I didn't get sober in DC and never said I attended meetings there. You constantly misconstrue things despite correction.

I haven't stalked anyone at all. I am appalled that someone said that and created a whole situtation over something simply because of a fear that a meeting would get support. Thank God for recoveryfromrecovery, or I never would have gotten the admission from her that coming to see if a meeting was as bad as described was her big "threat." She would never point to anything anyone had done that was counter to what I have posted here. It was shocking and upsetting, and the accusation came on the same day I was putting down my dog. I eventually spoke to the FBI agent across the street about it. I wondered if I owed her an apology, but I never could see where I had done one thing to her personally. I went on a long planned trip. I went to a meeting where I surely would never expect her to be... and I discovered that she is wrong about what she describes about THAT meeting. The NA meeting could be entirely different.

And I am guilty of one of the above behaviors, too, and I was ashamed of myself for my role. When Massive came over here, breathlessly panting that we all needed to go to her blog to let an AA have it on 13 stepping, I followed along. I shouldn't have done that, especially when I agreed to some extent with what every lady, pro or con, had to share.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 09:03

Gee Clara, another sly suggestion? Yesterday you were blogging from the Gun Range (another sly suggestion) and now you live across from an FBI agent? WOW, remember that Danny (Trisha) claimed to be married to a police man?

BTW, I am planning on taking a Harley trip to El Paso on the 4th of July, I'll be flying in on the 3rd and visiting relatives, do you have any Harley Dealers I can rent a Harley from? They will all be open on the 4th, not like Easter Sunday. Even though I'm visiting relatives on that holiday, I won't be at their house, I will be visiting the covens of Bill Wilson Chanters, I want to give them money..........

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 09:37

They live for this constant drama. They want to suck you into a scenario where you have to defend yourself. It is always about something sexual, stalking, drugs, or some other sick twisted behavior.
Ask yourself Clara, why is it that these are the only subjects, causeandeffect and JR, ever bring up to terrorize members they don't like. Because they believe this is the best way to make someone less credible.
Please, tell them to fuck off and just ignore them.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 09:34

Wow, you should all get together sometime, how about the 4th of July, we can all meet at a club house in Texas.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Brett

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 01:17

signs his own cards

Brett

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 10:42

As he should. Who needs him?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Anthro

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 12:04

clara, don't you understand the courts have no business forcing people into religious programs?

Anthro

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 16:09

Anthro, have you spent any time reading what I post? I have often posted that I don't like people being mandated to meetings. It is against the tradition that anyone is there by anything but a desire to stop drinking. If they don't want to be there, it helps no one. As for forcing them into a religious program or anything else, I think a person should insist on going to jail instead of AA if they feel that strongly about it. AA is the easier, softer way, so they shouldn't be complaining.

But my issue is when a person shows up at the last minute for a signature. In El Paso, the slips are placed in the basket that is passed around. If it isn't in there, no signature. If you cannot do at least that much, fine. You shouldn't be there asking for one. In MB, where I go sober, each group handles it its own way per group conscience. Which it can.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 19:44

Why should it be jail or AA? Why should it be that binary? Jeez. Some people really DO want to work on getting better. Or just want to get better. They should have a program that is geared for the whole population if they're going to mandate people anywhere, not send someone to something completely in opposition to the Constitution, if they're going to offer the choice. Just my 2 cents.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 20:14

advocate for AA then we automatically support this AA or jail conclusion and we support all the other craziness you can come up with concerning AA.
Well I could say you are wrong but I don't think that would satisfy you. That is a shame to.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 20:18

Everyone knows that is a LIE.........

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 21:00

Everyone knows JR Harris believes it is a lie.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 20:39

No, I was honestly just making an observation. It's a deficit in the system. They decided that jail wasn't entirely appropriate but didn't go the extra mile to create something else and just used something already in existence. It's shoddy work (yet again) by the US courts. Not surprising, but there you go.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 21:38

But until the people that insist they be given a choice of programs strive to make those available, jail or AA is it. That just the fact of it. I am sure that some want to get better. At least, I hope that is true.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 21:50

Why is it up to them to make something available that the courts are mandating them to, exactly, Clara? Isn't the essence of the law to not send them to jail in favor of getting them help for the problem that caused the crime in the first place? They can't really say that people can opt for help and then not provide the help, especially if the help they recommend is Constitutionally not viable as a solution. Is this or isn't this civilization? The options as laid out by you only make logical sense to either people who don't pay attention or tea partiers (was that redundant?).

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 22:02

Because they are the ones complaining that the constitutional rights are being violated by NOT offering a choice. If they feel that way, fine, and some courts have even ruled that way. But, realistically speaking, if there are no alternative meetings, then what does the person get? He doesn't get off with nothing.

If people believe this way, they should put moxie where their mouth is and facilitate some meetings so there really are alternatives. Thousands of AA meetings to 300 SMART meetings just isn't really a balanced field. It's easy to sit on a blog and point to what should be done, but then not getting out there and offering it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 23:36

No, something that violates the rights given to us in the Constitution violates those rights, period. No one needs to complain in the first place, at least in theory. However, when some did complain the courts ruled in their favor. I don't understand this very recovery culture attitude you have about this being the responsibility of other former addicts and alcoholics to take this upon themselves.

I don't think you are getting my point, either. While there are obvious dangers in having the government set up its own system to help treat people given the option of jail or treatment of some sort, and I personally am not even really in favor of that idea (if only due to the problems that might arise), it seems the only logical and responsible thing to do. You can't mandate people to a treatment program if you don't provide it ("you" being the justice system) and then dump people into a program that violates the strictures of the law. It makes no logical or even legal sense.

I do realize that when it comes to anything in "recovery" that you DO have to do EVERY SINGLE THING YOURSELF. Believe me, I'm all too aware of that fact. But you're sitting here as well pointing to what should be done, all the while criticizing everyone else here for their analysis. You're criticizing people for not wanting to choose AA (hypothetical people, at that; these masses of people who may or may not want their rights violated are not exactly here on this forum). You're criticizing people here for pointing out that it's wrong. What are YOU doing about the situation, Clara, except for acting the strict old schoolmarm about not signing their court cards if they don't meet YOUR criteria? You're doing nothing. You're sitting here complaining about it all as well.

I'm not qualified to start a meeting, nor am I particularly interested. You obviously aren't either, but perhaps you should. Life in El Paso seems to be a bit empty and boring for you, if all you do there is sit around on the OPF talking to all of us. About crab soup. Just a thought.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 07:45

I didn't mean the defendants themselves. I have always been talking about the people that blather on about AA being the only alternative to jail. Here in Texas, if you were mandated for a crime that had the sentencing options of some sort of outpatient care or jail, you'd be hard pressed to find an area that has anything more than AA to offer unless the defendant was willing to pay for something. If people are going to jump up and down about that, then perhaps they should consider it a civic duty to faciliate SMART meetings or something else so there could be a real choice. In El Paso, you've got AA. You don't have SOS in Texas (other than two meetings in Dallas) unless you ARE in jail. As for the rights of people, you know... I tended to forget that other people had rights, too, when I chose to drink and drive drunk. They have the right to believe that people they encounter on the road behave responsibly. Driving isn't a right, PIE. It's a privilege.

Why aren't you qualified to start a meeting? SMART doesn't require anything but desire to help others. Because it is so prevelant on this board to place a person't position in AA before anything they post, you've failed to notice that I don't refuse to sign cards and never did unless a person didn't follow the group's conscience for such a thing. And if a person cannot cooperate in that least bit, then they can go to another meeting where they can continue to manipulate and do the least they can despite getting an opportunity to NOT go to jail. This is a problem I experience with people that want to read rewrites of a person's post and believe those verses what they really say. There is nothing I am saying now that I haven't said since I've discovered OPV.

My issue is with people that sit back and say "well, people should..." or "it should be provided..." when a very clear part of the problem is that there aren't enough people interested to facilitate meetings so there is a real alternative that they can support.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 08:42

Did you COMPLETELY miss my point? Oh, why am I even asking. You obviously did.

AGAIN. The courts shouldn't be recommending treatment of some sort while handing that job out to unqualified people in some unrelated support group chain (that also violates the Constitutional rights of the people it is mandating). While in practice, this is preferable to the TCs set up by mental health departments and the courts, it makes little sense to me.

I wasn't talking about you, your story, or that driving is a privilege. I was talking about something fairly clear cut. The Establishment Clause. Which, btw, isn't exactly rocket science.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 09:08

But, you are maybe missing the point. Why post about the courts here. Go to them and advocate.
Picket outside the courts houses, get on 360 CNN, write to the The Fix, NY Times, Mia Salavitch (mspl'd) Times Magazine.
You seem to think because we reject your ideas and opinions about AA, we can not debate effectively or we must be naive. Like we haven't done are research.
Lmao....relax girl. We probably don't see the emergencies you are manifesting, that's all. There is no sense of urgency.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 09:30

No Trisha, I see no real urgency at all. I sure as hell wouldn't picket outside of a courthouse. Nice of you to come to Clara's defense, but it hardly bolsters her lack of a point.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 11:08

I didn't miss your point at all. If the sentencing guidelines are jail and/or some sort of outpatient care... and the only free care out there is AA and the defendant can't afford to pay, then there is only one choice. Put the guy in jail if he finds going to AA objectionable.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 11:18

If AA is free, where does AA El Paso get a $33,419.33 bank account?

http://aaelpaso.org/aa_el_paso_financial_page.html

It certainly isn't from the Alpha, Alta Vista, Border, Freedom or Saturday Night Speakers Groups of El Paso AA, they have only tithed barely $100 this year to the Intergroup at 3318 Douglas Ave. El Paso, Texas 79903 (915) 562-4081

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 11:36

Clara, you obviously did if you're still referencing "free care".

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 11:39

There is no obligation to pay anything at AA. People are just happy for someone to get well.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 11:50

Still not getting it.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 12:25

I think I am getting it. You want the courts to provide an alternative to AA yet there are complaints even with the states that have some sort of school that they send peope to. In SC, the ADSAP classes get under fire. If they mandate someone to AA, that's a problem because no one should be sent to something with "religious" overtones, yet these same people that complain about that won't get off their hind quarters to actually provide something by facilitating SOS or SMART meetings. This is what I ehar all of the time on this forum. Youwant to show up someplace with a token list of alternatives whe, in some areas, there aren't any. Even in LA with 30 years of SOS, there are - what - TWO locations that would appear on Massive's List? If she passed one out in Dallas, she would have two SOS meetings. If she did one in Daytona, she would have a SMART meeting she could list for St. Augustine.

In all fairness, how productive are efforts such as these? It's just my opinion but if you want change, you have the be the change you want to see, so download those forms and get a meeting space!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 13:21

You're still on about how there should be meetings of some sort. Why should someone even have to attend them to prove they're working on anything? While I don't advocate the state programs in existence for treatment as opposed to AA (if for no other reason than I know little about them), my point was simply that the state shouldn't be able to mandate treatment without providing it on its own. That this should be handled on a more official level than saying we're just going to send people to WHATEVER free meetings exist out there already (or could pop up if someone starts more).

It's an odd position, because I don't entirely agree with it, I just thought it an interesting point of debate. I'm not talking about free meetings of any kind and never was. Just let people prove they're working on their problem and provide them with help instead of sending them to a place that practices Christian prayers and belief in something outside of oneself, filled with people whose entire "expertise" in the subject is based on having been in a similar position.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 12:10

I explained to the lady on the phone that I wanted to talk to them about boosting tithing. They said to say Hi by the way. El Paso sure does have a lot of low bottom drunks. I specifically asked for the GSR for the Westside Happy Hour Group. I should be talking to them shortly. Do you have a direct number by any chance?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 16:29

That's not the issue, Anthrax. I can't think of one person on this forum, pro- or anti- or indifferent-toward-AA who would agree that mandating people into AA or NA is a good idea.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 05:45

AA & NA desperately need the court mandated & sentenced members. the rooms would be 60% less filled, even more meetings would collapse. the cult would stagnate & eventually collapse due to consumer awareness & the cults failure as a recovery & rehab method. without the forced attendance of convicted duis & paroled & probation felons the rooms would be 60% emptier. why do you think the cults troll for attendees in the most downtrodden environments, jail, shelters, courtrooms, convicts. there is no way the cult is going to recruit members @ country clubs, upscale bars & restaurants, community groups. it has to be the vulnerable, poor, uneducated, young, downtrodden, jailed, convicted, institutionalized, homeless. the poorer & downtrodden the area the more AA meetings daily. the more affluent the area maybe one meeting a week or none @ all.

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 12:25

That isn't true for AA.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

dorak nob's picture

dorak nob

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 12:11

court card pimp

after returning from restroom her court card was signed

jonnijoy's picture

jonnijoy

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 17:12

pennywise says; Let's say I was late to a meeting in El Paso that you were chairing and you refused to sign my card. Let's then say that I called a group conscious to remove you as chairperson on the ground that you brag about ordering fortified wine to pour in your soup, which you do in front of fellow AAs. I argue that this sets a bad example for the newcomer, voids your sobriety time so that you don't have the required "time" to sit as chairperson, and runs counter to "The Doctor's Opinion" that alcoholics cannot safely use alcohol in any form at all. What do you think would happen, and how would you defend yourself?
JJ says; that is an interesting question. I think that the person would have to admit that they relapsed for them to lose the position, Im not ragging on Clara at all, but putting alcohol of any form into a dish would be considered by many to be a slip. Bill did it when he ordered a shot in his milk. I know its not the same but it still wouldnt fly. As ridiculous as it may be. Thats the AA I know.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 17:24

JJ said: "I think that the person would have to admit that they relapsed for them to lose the position,

Are you saying that if she stubbornly refused to acknowledge it as a relapse she could KEEP the position? In other words, are you saying that she would lose the position only if she admitted it was a relapse, but could keep it if she refused to recognize it as a slip? The way I see it, the only way she could KEEP the position is if she acknowledged it as a slip and expressed contrition.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 20:46

This is her sobreity, Penny, not your idea or anyone else.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 17:35

To me, Bill was ordering a drink. scotch and milk was a drink in the day. His thought was that

he wouldn't get drink since it was milk.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 17:42

My understanding of scotch and milk was a) the protection of the compromised stomach lining by the milk, while b) the scotch could still be ingested. End run. It's still in practice, by the way. There's nothing retro about wanting a drink so bad you'll douse it with milk to get it down, past the ulcers, past the damage.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 19:39

Plus, we have to remember that Bill had three or more scotch and milk drinks. That's drinking. That isn't eating a dish as it is customarily prepared, and there is a difference to me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 19:50

Clara, you don't get to play the customarily prepared card when you go out of your way to order it.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 19:59

That is why I ordered it. That is how it is customarily served. I can't help it if Mr. Fish is less sophisticated than Annapolis :)

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 20:01

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Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 20:06

Does the El Paso Coven of Alcoholics Anonymous Bill Wilson chanters at 3318 Douglas Ave, El Paso, Texas 79903 (915) 562-4081, know about your "secret" alcohol consumption?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

jonnijoy's picture

jonnijoy

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 17:17

I get a bad chest cold every year. I always get the cough medicine with alcohol in it. I even did this when I was in AA. It works better for me, that all. I would never want to share that though and have my sober time discredited to a few of the hardcore jerks. I also took a xanax tab occasionally when my anxiety level was out of control and i knew not to share this either.

jonnijoy's picture

jonnijoy

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 17:27

Yes pennywise thats what I think would have to happen. I dont think that heresay would get anybody ousted of a position. If she denied it, I dont think there would be a problem but if she admitted it they would most likely take a vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 17:37

Right, but I'm asking whether she could keep the position if she admitted the alcohol consumption but refused to acknowledge that consumption as a slip, as compared to if she admitted the alcohol consumption, acknowledged it as a slip, and expressed remorse.

In other words, let's say there was no dispute that she consumed a bit of alcohol with her soup. In scenario "A" she refuses to recognize anything wrong with it, and in scenario "B" she acknowledges it as a slip and expresses contrition. In which of the two scenarios is she more likely to retain the chair?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

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