Bill's difficulty with allowing others to believe as they will.

Trisha K.'s picture
Submitted by Trisha K. on Sat, 06/16/2012 - 12:24

Paragraph Writing Down The Twelve Steps
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/billw2/clergy.html"

"In the course of this writing, I had considerably changed the order of the presentation. In our word-of-mouth program, we had reversed mention of God to the very end. For some reason, unknown to me, I had transposed this to almost the very beginning. In my original draft of the Twelve Steps, God was mentioned several times and only as God. It never occurred to me to qualify this to "God as we understand Him" as we did later on.Otherwise the Twelve Steps stand today almost exactly as they were first written.
When these Steps were shown to my friends, their reactions were quite mixed indeed. Some argued that six steps had worked fine, so why twelve? From our agnostic contingent there were loud cries of too much "God." Others objected to an expression which I had included which suggested getting on one’s knees while in prayer. I heavily resisted these objections for months. But finally did take out my statement about a suitable prayerful posture and I finally went along with that now tremendously important expression, "God as we understand Him"—this expression having been coined, I think, by one of our former atheist members. This was indeed a ten-strike. That one has since enabled thousands to join M who would have otherwise gone away. It enabled people of fine religious training and those of none at all to associate freely and to work together. It made one’s religion the business of the A.A. member himself and not that of his society."

Comments

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 06/16/2012 - 12:28

Throw in a Gerald Heard and a few LSD trips and you will get -

A Brave New World as seen through the eyes of Bill Wilson and Alcoholics Anonymous.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sat, 06/16/2012 - 12:59

Gossip rag mag editor.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sat, 06/16/2012 - 13:01

wrong blog!

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

dolson's picture

dolson

Sat, 06/16/2012 - 12:45

Yet more sly suggestion Danny?

Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.

Anthro

Sat, 06/16/2012 - 13:31

fecal matter

Anthro

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 11:45

Why are you quoting from an article under the heading "clergy?"

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

aasux

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 11:50

Bill W. himself said it!

Bill W.: We Ms have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Hence we have always called it an illness or a malady - a far safer term for us to use.

see, it's a malady, an illness. Much like AA has become. A bunch of fucked in the mind idiots blindly believing the rantings of a detoxed and hallucinatory madman who never overcame addiction, he just changed his drugs of choice to sex and nicotine. The big book is bullshit.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 15:52

" . . . see, it's a malady, an illness. Much like AA has become. A bunch of fucked in the mind idiots blindly believing the rantings of a detoxed and hallucinatory madman who never overcame addiction, he just changed his drugs of choice to sex and nicotine. The big book is bullshit."

Well, this is a rather harsh hypergeneralization of a group of millions of people.

If the Big Book is bullshit, then don't read it, don't discuss it, don't look for weaknesses in it, don't give it a second thought. Keeping it in your mind in any fashion only serves to disquiet your nominal rationality.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 15:58

Not only that, the latest Triennial Survey is very late, they must be hiding something. If you can prove the numbers of the "fake" survey are true please provide the proof for that. Something along the lines of a National Election vote are not needed. Just something along the lines of proof that small state election is not rigged. Thank you in advance for your rigorous honesty......

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 16:14

Even if it were a hundred people or one person, the description is presumptuous and hateful.

(Yes, these are GSO numbers, but counter it if you KNOW and can show that they are inflated:
http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-53_en.pdf)

Why is it so painful for you to believe that there are millions of drunks who are currently in AA? It doesn't make you less of a martyr to believe it. Do you have alternate figures? Where are they? Where did the information come from?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

aasux

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 20:44

I was forcefed that bullshit for 3 mos, and if I want to proclaim it bullshit, I will. I would challenge you on any test of rationality, or intelligence, or general well-being, BTW. You don't like it, leave.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 20:54

It wasn't for you, which is fine. It's worked for millions of others over 75 years. It should be fine with you that it did.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 21:01

Please provide statistics for these millions of others, nothing big, just the number of the sampled population, the frequency of polling, safe guards against double votes, geographic areas, etc,,, You know the usual things that are required in any survey. Please include any "relapses" due to consuming crab soup with sherry in it and the VIN number of the vehicle involved which can be verified using carfax. http://www.carfax.com/entry.cfx

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 21:23

Uh huh. Nice try. I already posted one link. I'm satisfied.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

aasux

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 21:56

It didn't work, those who stay sober make a decision to be sober. if they happen to be in the cult chant room at the time, they attribute it to aa. if aa dogma is correct, i should be dead, but i'm happily sober without the incessant mindless tripe i listened to for months. what a waste of my time. anyone who believes they are going to magically get sober by praying to some contrived higher power is doomed in my book. saw it time and time again. "I went back out, but I'm back..." spoken proudly by these revolving door drunks. Sorry, but I have a life to live and a job to keep, and aa doesn't want you to have either. Show me any proof at all that it works. there isn't any. group hugs and chants may help some with their decision to be sober, but in the end, it's a behavioral modification and nothing more. when getting drunk becomes so painful that the negative feedback is felt, then the animal will push the other lever (sobriety). we are conditioned beings, all of us.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 22:30

Sooo, you spent three months in AA and how many years bitching about it? I learned a lot of behavior modification in AA.

I am proof that it worked for me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

aasux

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:53

no, you learned cult programming and brainwashing and senseless, mindless chants. AA did nothing but make me want to use. I didn't, I am my higher power, thank you. The mind trumps all in these matters as addiction is behavior rooted. we have to want to stop, regardless of which group your mentally masturbating with, the solution is within your own brain, just as the problem is. There is no deeper, spiritual aspect. That's all aa bullshit designed as a scare tactic to keep you coming back as they say. I quit out of shame when I got caught. Few if any just wake up one day and decide to stop. The behavior is rewarded with the high until the act of getting high or being high on the job gets you busted. That's simple behavior modification. Some will persist with the habit despite this because they have nothing to lose or what they stand to lose doesn't mean as much to them as the drug. That's sad but true. I quit, it's over, I am not an addict. If I gobbled up a few vicodin today, I'd be right back in the throes of addiction. I know that. I also know I'm never doing it again. My motto is forever, not one day at a time.

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:05

"I quit, it's over, I am not an addict. If I gobbled up a few vicodin today, I'd be right back in the throes of addiction. I know that."

If you're not an addict, why can't you take vicodin today? Can't you take it for pain management without the ghost of dependence hovering about? That sounds like an addict's way of thinking to me, not a non-addict's. Maybe your "forever" motto applies to being a forever addict, not a forever-until-the-next-time non-addict.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:33

Yes but some people can't do that, so one day at a time works for them. AA isn't for everyone, Sux. But take it all back with your remark about if you gobbled a few vicodin today... I mean, why would you take it in any other way that it was perscribed? I've never seen a script written as "gobble a few..."

And remember. Alcoholics come in degrees. Perhaps some CAN say never. Others are lucky to get through the afternoon. I think the BB tends to be written depicting worst case scenarios.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 22:38

aasux says: "Sorry, but I have a life to live and a job to keep, and aa doesn't want you to have either. Show me any proof at all that ...." AA doesn't want you to have either. So there's a pamphlet for that?

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:35

That's downright funny. AA wants everyone to be fully restored as citiizen's of the world. AA, you couldn't be more wrong.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 14:39

Dated just after the 2008 melt down...no more money, houses or jobs. Ask GMC...lol.
Better yet ask aasux, he knows!!
AA conspired to shut down the world economy. Damn that AA...grrrrr!!

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 10:34

"if aa dogma is correct, i should be dead, but i'm happily sober without the incessant mindless tripe i listened to for months. what a waste of my time. anyone who believes they are going to magically get sober by praying to some contrived higher power,/STRONG> is doomed in my book . . . "

" . . . group hugs and chants . . . "

" . . . it's a behavioral modification and nothing more . . . "

Which is is, aasux: cult hysteria or behavior modification? I think the most telling phrase in your post is "in my book." That tells me this is opinion, to which you are certainly entitled; but that doesn't make it fact.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

aasux

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:56

true, it worked for me. it's a fact in my life. I don't care how you get sober or think you get sober. I'm just telling my story. I hate that I was railroaded into the 12 steps, but so be it. I am not bitter, but do have strong feelings. I hope everyone who is sober remains so, and lives a long and happy life, no matter how you do it.

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:00

"I don't care how you get sober or think you get sober."

This invalidates your rant on Clara, then.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:37

Of course it does, but I am sure he means it in sport.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 21:15

Even babies who are force-fed something they don't like will spit it out in a matter of one second or less. Why did it take you three months? And who are you challenging, aasux?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

aasux

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 22:01

the fucking worthless rehab i was in is where I was forcefed this tripe. and I am challenging you as you alluded to my minimal rationality which I took as a slight. if it wasn't meant that way, then I'm sorry. I have strong feelings regarding this. I HAD to finish rehab to go back to work, so I faked it til I made it as the idiot steppers like to say. Frankly there were days I prayed for a fire, tornado. or gunman. I hated every minute of it. I didn't need three months of negative feedback to know I had to change my behavior. Rehab is a joke, a front for 12 step indoctrination. NO science, no applied theory, just the same tired shit. "you have a disease and will die without meetings". Fuck every last one of you who told me that, and may your rehab go belly up when the scam is someday exposed. I do feel sorry for the poor bastards clinging to every word these "doctors" (psychiatrists don't count, they couldn't do anything else in medicine so they settled for the pseudoscience of psychiatry) say and have no self-worth or confidence. Ok, I feel better. And I'm not using or drinking, wow...

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 22:20

aasux--I never quite got that line of thinking, myself. People usually have figured out something is painfully wrong if they're in rehab in the first place. It does nothing but harm to constantly remind them of their failures. They know just enough psychology to be dangerous, they don't seem to realize (or even take into account) the very real reactions people have to being treated this way. Actually, it's worse, they take it as some other symptom of the disease process they have invented.

Keep telling them, aasux! No one should be questioning your motives in having been somewhere for 3 months (or even 1--or less...).

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

aasux

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:14

thanks for your comments. I am just being honest. I sense from the steppers here that they think I'm just one bad day away from addiction again. I'd challenge my peace of mind, sanity, rationality, and productivity against anyone's. I laugh at the undertones. Yes, I faked all my rehab shit, because I knew I was done with drugs. I lied about my steps, went to the mall rather than visit with some gay priest and share my "secrets" which I know, steppers, will keep me sick. all the aa speak was just so much bullshit that after a while we'd play slogan bingo at the meetings. That or check out the hot messes who were convinced they were alcoholics because they drank too much and banged some guy they just met the night before. Jesus Christ, people, get a life, get it together and get on with it. It's not rocket science, it's not a spiritual deficiency, and it's not something you fix by reading a book of fantasy written by a delusional detoxing drunk in the 1930's.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 14:33

"Yes, I faked all my rehab shit, because I knew I was done with drugs. I lied about my steps, went to the mall rather than visit with some gay priest and share my "secrets" which I know, steppers, will keep me sick."

I am still faking it...lmao!!

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 16:43

If you are so astute at lying, what are you lying about now? And why would you fake anyway? If you did not want to participate in the rehab thing, why did you not just beg off? It wouldn't be rocket science for anyone putting you up to rehab to understand the word "NO", would it?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 22:30

aasux says: "I HAD to finish rehab to go back to work, so I faked it til I made it ...."
aasux says: "And I'm not using or drinking ...."

Behaviour modification complete.

aasux

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:58

you nailed it. I had to quit. I didn't want to at the time. I got caught. I'm no saint who decided one day to modify my behavior. However, on the sober side of the fence the rewards are much greater, and the guilty conscience is gone. The rewards are slower to come than the rush of drugs, but I am happy with that now. I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd be living this way today, and I am very glad I was wrong. Yeah, it took forced intervention and an involuntary rehab trip to do it. That's all the nose rubbing in shit I will ever need. I'm not white knuckling it, I'm not a dry drunk, so save me any contrived aa wisdom.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 14:28

"you nailed it. I had to quit. I didn't want to at the time. I got caught. I'm no saint who decided one day to modify my behavior. However, on the sober side of the fence the rewards are much greater, and the guilty conscience is gone. The rewards are slower to come than the rush of drugs, but I am happy with that now. I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd be living this way today, and I am very glad I was wrong. Yeah, it took forced intervention and an involuntary rehab trip to do it. That's all the nose rubbing in shit I will ever need. I'm not white knuckling it, I'm not a dry drunk, so save me any contrived aa wisdom."

These are your words now, read them again.

*I had to quit.
*I didn't want to at the time.
*I got caught.
*I'm no saint who decided one day to modify my behavior.
*However, on the sober side of the fence the rewards are much greater, and the guilty conscience is gone.
*The rewards are slower to come than the rush of drugs, but I am happy with that now.
*I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd be living this way today,
*and I am very glad I was wrong.
*Yeah, it took forced intervention and an involuntary rehab trip to do it.
*That's all the nose rubbing in shit I will ever need.
*I'm not white knuckling it, I'm not a dry drunk, so save me any contrived aa wisdom.

You really think we (steppers as you call us) did it any differently. We came to the same conclusions and had the same excitement about are new found sobriety and the advantages.
Clara, becket, Alkie and myself also found out that we don't need constant reminders, we are staying sober and have been for some time.
You are not writing some new chapter here, I applaud your new found sobriety/clean time. It is good and it does allow you to live a much more fulfilling life.
I will say this aasux, you are full of shit if you think you are over your resentment of being forced into rehab. Just my opinion. Stop blaming your short comings on us (steppers as you call us).

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

aasux

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 15:42

I'll never be over that resentment. I'm not kidding anyone, myself included. Glad you're sober, really. That's all that really matters at the end of the day. My disillusionment was in thinking rehab would have something useful and novel and science based rather than the 12 step dogma. I can find that for free, but it cost me 50k. Yes, I will resent it forever, but I won't use over it. I am not blaming shortcomings on anyone, BTW.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 15:54

It is hindsight and hindsight is always 20/20. But please don't bullshit yourself into believing that treatment center didn't help you realize things you were not seeing before.
I also bet that $50,000 grand you invested in yourself your parents and family are so grateful for the dividends it is paying out.
AA, in my opinion helped me put into perspective what was going on in my life, what had to be done about it and what I could do with the rest of my life.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

aasux

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:58

you nailed it. I had to quit. I didn't want to at the time. I got caught. I'm no saint who decided one day to modify my behavior. However, on the sober side of the fence the rewards are much greater, and the guilty conscience is gone. The rewards are slower to come than the rush of drugs, but I am happy with that now. I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd be living this way today, and I am very glad I was wrong. Yeah, it took forced intervention and an involuntary rehab trip to do it. That's all the nose rubbing in shit I will ever need. I'm not white knuckling it, I'm not a dry drunk, so save me any contrived aa wisdom.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 22:37

Good lord, are you using now? Your writing has taken a huge turn of difference.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sun, 06/17/2012 - 23:04

LOL Clara, I hope that wasn't an attempt to try and malign me. Isn't that always the last ditch effort, to accuse someone of using? Funny, funny lady.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 08:41

I meant AAsux. He went to writing like Patti.

I don't know know if it is last ditch, but it is sort of along the lines of when you and others start the "rigorous honesty" bit when someone is simply disagreeing with you or that one of the traditions means I can't do something you'd prefer that I not. I am using "you" as a generic.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

aasux

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:08

turn of difference? explain. I am not using, there's nothing on these boards, nor in the world, that would send me back down that road. I'm just free thinking and writing. If it looks like I'm high, then I am being effective, I suppose.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:38

Style of writing, AA. I am glad that you are sober and well.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 17:52

aasux,
you don't look like your high, neither did I. It's just one of their desperate tactics. They just use their unhealthy bag of AA tricks. Anyway everything you are writing is healthy. 97% of people exposed to AA reject it just as you did. They have the intelligence to recognize it for the bullshit that it is as you did. These are AA true believers that you are interacting with here, just as those in the rooms, they belong on the pay no mind list. They are here simply to defend their cult & to antagonize. You rolled from AA cause like so many of us you don't want what they have. They have a hard time accepting rejection of the cult although they should be accustomed to it.

patti

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 03:27

Awesome post, AAsux. Just awesome. We have a lot in common. Love what you had to say about psychiatrists. They're basically glorified liberal arts majors who fool people into believing that they do something scientific and useful.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 10:55

Is the mind not worth exploring? Should every discipline be as rooted and constant as mathematics? Let's say a psychiatrist is not enmeshed with AA or rehabs of any stripe. Is he exempt from your cynicism?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 14:31

"Is the mind not worth exploring? Should every discipline be as rooted and constant as mathematics? Let's say a psychiatrist is not enmeshed with AA or rehabs of any stripe. Is he exempt from your cynicism?"

Sure the mind is worth exploring. But a psychiatrist should not be able to call himself a medical doctor. A neurologist is a medical doctor; a psychiatrist is a liberal artist. A psychiatrist has much more in common with philosophers, theologians, poli-sci majors, and English professors than he does a neurologist.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 10:44

I've looked through my posts and I'm not seeing that I alluded to your "minimal rationality". If I did so and you took it as a slight, apologies to you, sir. I don't think I know anyone who was at the end of their using or drinking who could have been considered completely rational, but maybe you're the first in a great line of decision-makers who could have decided not to drink from the start, who could have decided not to become dependent on booze, and who finally, out of boredom or inspiration decided to modify their behavior by changing their minds.

Why then AA? It sound like your gripe is with rehab, not AA. Please share your list of scientific and theoretical findings which support the idea that there is no such thing as physical and mental dependence on substances, that it is merely a matter of flipping the sensibility switch to achieve deeply satisfying and lasting sobriety. You might be in line for a Nobel prize.

If one can flip a switch and be done with it, how do you explain the sometime necessity of medical detox?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 10:58

They train prospect hunter and make them or their insurance companies pay for it. At the SAME time Bill Wilson was conning the Stepping Stones Compound out of the newly widowed Helen Griffith with his "friends" from the cult like the real estate agent Joan C, he was also courting Highwatch Farms on 62 Carter Rd, Kent, CT 06757.

"High Watch was founded in 1940 with the assistance of Bill W., the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous."

High Watch has a rich history connected to both the New Thought movement and more profoundly, Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill W., co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, established High Watch Farm in 1940 as the first 12 Step treatment center in the world.

Source; http://highwatchrecovery.com/founded.html


Kind of reminds you of the 1944 movie "Arsenic and Old Lace", doesn't it?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

aasux

Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:06

ok, I overreacted on the rationality comment. my bad. I do not deny addiction, mental/physical dependence. very real chemical responses of the human body to a substance. Yes, alcoholics will die from DT's if not detoxed appropriately. I still stand by my contention that the initiating event(s) is/are voluntary and choice. We choose our substance. We like it. We become dependent and we seek it at all costs. Only when the negative feedback (whatever that may be: jail, loss of job, wife, etc) becomes greater than the reward of the drug do we choose to modify. Here is the tough part. Some can quit cold turkey, resume the normal life and be fine. Others can practice harm reduction and still use/drink,but in a controlled fashion (these folks do exist, and they are real alcoholics, but they are not out there bragging about it), and there are those who will never give it up and fall back into addiction regardless. This last group is the most "chemical" of them all and are reacting at base brainstem reflexive level. No conscious thought or rational decision making involved. I must drink, I don't care what happens. It's very complex, and I'm no brain scientist, but I do feel that this spectrum exists for all drugs and alcohol and we have to figure out where we are on it. Personally, quitting was easy. It wasn't voluntary, but once it was forced, and life got better, I was done, forever.

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