Cynicism vs Skepticism?? What say you??
From the Recovering from Recovery.com site - Horror Stories Forum (drug addicts @ AA meetings)
Forum admin wrote:
Don't knock cynicism. It stopped me from completely falling for cult bullshit for a lot of years.
The author/member who wrote the post on Recovery:
"It was skepticism that worked my intervention and eventual departure from the program. Cynicism had nothing to do with it. I found it odd that AAs would insist that the program could take care of alcohol but may not work on drugs. NA is the same program with a hearty helping of "we" thrown in for inclusive sake. Both programs are basically standard lessons in ethics. People choosing the programs for guidance is all well and good. People living by the program is an ongoing reminder that one is irreparably sick and it was with this that I had the most significant problem. What good is a program if the first assumption made by it is that we'll be destroyed if we leave it? Thus the understandable (if hyperbolic) accusations of cultism."
Line by line of the paragraph:
*It was skepticism that worked my intervention and eventual departure from the program. Cynicism had nothing to do with it.
* I found it odd that AAs would insist that the program could take care of alcohol but may not work on drugs.
*NA is the same program with a hearty helping of "we" thrown in for inclusive sake. Both programs are basically standard lessons in ethics.
*People choosing the programs for guidance is all well and good.
*People living by the program is an ongoing reminder that one is irreparably sick and it was with this that I had the most significant problem.
*What good is a program if the first assumption made by it is that we'll be destroyed if we leave it?
*Thus the understandable (if hyperbolic) accusations of cultism.
I absolutely love what this person wrote. I just had to share it here. This is so different from the typical anti-aa'er. I am not saying the author is for AA or against and the author would probably throttle me for pigeon holing them either way.
This person is not driven by cynicism but by common sense. His points concerning AA today are right on. Pretty much the very reasons I don't associate with AA as much today.
I disagree with the author that AA literature says these things. But coupled with the treatment center dogma spouted by 80% of the fellowship today, it is hard not to get the message he posted about.
- Trisha K.'s blog
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Comments
Trisha K.
Sun, 06/17/2012 - 21:06
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If only we could have more rational conversation here....
like this. It is possible.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Gunthar2000
Tue, 06/19/2012 - 03:21
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Doh!
Doh!
AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.
Gunthar2000
http://www.expaa.org/
becket
Sun, 06/17/2012 - 21:26
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There you have it.
There you have it.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
alkieanon
Sun, 06/17/2012 - 22:18
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Rather than try to fix problems, they obsess over what is broken
"Rather than try to fix problems, they obsess over what is broken."
http://the99percent.com/tips/6412/Skeptics-vs-Cynics-Problem-Solving-wit...
Trisha K.
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 04:59
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Great article, Alkie.
The evidence is glaring, here. Cynicism chokes the life out of any solutions.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
JR Harris
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 05:12
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Yes if you took the cult and godspeak out of AA
You could focus on the problem, instead of playing the Spiritual vs, Religious game all the time.
(Note the so called "atheists" talking about the AA god and Spirituality, instead of the problem)
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=8312351&postcount=6865
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=8357523&postcount=6877
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
alkieanon
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 05:48
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Note the so called atheists talking about the God and Spirituali
http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/comment/41950#comment-41950
becket
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:08
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I thought the focus was
I thought the focus was supposed to be on the solution, not the problem, JR Harris. How does removing cult and godspeak change AA into a program that solves the problem of alcohol dependence?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Clara
Sun, 06/17/2012 - 22:36
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Where was it said in AA that
Where was it said in AA that AA wouldn't work on drugs? I can find any number of places where the singleness of purpose, alcohol, is addressed, but I have never seen there AA specificallly said it would not work with drugs. The premise of AA is one acoholic helping another, sharing experience, strength and hope. Bill's problem was alcohol.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 03:52
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Bill Wilson's problem was hallucinogenics, not Alcohol
It it weren't for the hallucinogenic actions of Deadly Nightshade (the active ingredient of many satanic rituals also known as Atropa belladonna, Devil's Berries or Death Cherries) the con man Bill Wilson would not have been able to build the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous with a straight face in 1936. Wilson and his dabbling in the occult rituals of the Ouija Board and seances that helped to build the empire of this chemically induced delirious madman will one day be seen for the madness it is.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
becket
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:10
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Cynicism, not skepticism.
Cynicism, not skepticism.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
live_free_or_die
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 04:35
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Bill W's problem was alcohol?
CLAR said: "Where was it said in AA that AA wouldn't work on drugs? I can find any number of places where the singleness of purpose, alcohol, is addressed, but I have never seen there AA specificallly said it would not work with drugs. The premise of AA is one acoholic helping another, sharing experience, strength and hope. Bill's problem was alcohol.
bill w had a hell of alot more problems than just alcohol.
bill w was:
a liar
a cheat
a conman
an adulterer
a user
a manipulator
a depressed individual
a man with narcissistic personality disorder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
In short, bill w was a man with a multitude of "character defects" that during his lifetime the scriptures of Alcoholics Anonymous was not able to "cure" him of.
The actual premise of AA is to find god, turn your life over to AA and god, keep going to meetings so that every meeting member, and Fred, can wallow in their misery by telling their oft repeated stories and put a dollar or two in the basket.
AA does not want members to move on with their life, AA wants members for life. AA needsmembers to opt for lifetime membership in the "fellowship".
AA has been proven to have a success rate of 3-5%.
oh, and AA kills people with its hokey religious beliefs.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
alkieanon
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 05:55
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Yes if you took the hate and twisted logic out of OPF
You could focus on the problem, instead of playing the "attacking the person" game all the time.
Oh, and Hydrogen Monoxide kills people.
live_free_or_die
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 06:47
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Hydrogen Monoxide
Not entirley sure what Hydrogen Monoxide is alkie, but if substance abusers are being sentenced, mandated or coerced into Hydrogen Monoxide meetings to help with their alcohol abuse then I have a problem with that as well.
Probably just as effective as AA though, in helping with substance abuse.
Not sure if Hydrogen Monoxide is as effective at killing substance abusers as AA is. You got any research on that alkie.
Alkie would you inform as to what exactly is the problem with AA that I should be focused on?
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
becket
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:28
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Who here endorses sentencing,
Who here endorses sentencing, mandating, coercing people to 12-step meetings? No one, so far as I've been able to determine. We all have a problem with it.
"Alkie would you inform as to what exactly is the problem with AA that I should be focused on?" That was not the original point as posed by JR Harris, and I quote: "Yes if you took the cult and godspeak out of AA you could focus on the problem, instead of playing the Spiritual vs, Religious game all the time." This implies that if cult- and godspeak, spirituality and religious overtones weren't present, the problem of alcohol dependence could be addressed unencumbered. Shall we now see some back-pedaling with JR Harris responding that this is not, in fact, what he meant, but instead his point was that "you could focus on the [inherent] problem[s] of AA"? Not buying it.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
JR Harris
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:36
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I believe that would be Clara, she likes the power of the pen
As already revealed, Clara likes the power to control mandated criminals recruited by AA missionary trips to capture them and bring them back to camp. Then, because she has the power to control them by refusing to sign the probation, parole or court card she gets an adrenalin rush out of it. Of course she then takes AA members out and feeds them chocolate moose with sherry in it and doesn't tell them, possibly causing a relapse in the hopes they will come running to her for an "AA get out of jail free card."
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
alkieanon
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 21:54
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What's The Problem
live_free_or_die says: "Not entirely sure what Hydrogen Monoxide is ...." LOL!
live_free_or_die says: "Alkie would you inform as to what exactly is the problem with AA that I should be focused on?" Had a problem with [fill in the blank spot]. Do not have the problem right now. Also do not have a problem with AA right now. But some people do have a problem with AA here on OPF. So far nothing rational or credible. Lots of opinions. Still trying to sort through the chatter and static inside OPF.
live_free_or_die
Tue, 06/19/2012 - 05:25
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Thanks alkie.
alkie said: "Lots of opinions. Still trying to sort through the chatter and static inside OPF.
Keep coming back alkie, you'll figure it out. And only you can.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Clara
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 08:17
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Again, LLOD, can you tell me
Again, LFOD, can you tell me where AA ever said that it wouldn't work on alcohol? Now, I realize that you are against me as a person because AA was successful for me, but why not put that aside and just answer the question as framed? If it didn't work, why did others form NA? Could it be that it is just as simple as choosing to focus on one issue?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Anthro
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 09:52
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and don't forget a wannabe stock broker...
and let's not forget the good doctor.....a spoiled rotten only child who got whatever he wanted growing up, drank his way very irresponsibly thru college, spent time in sanitariums before practicing medicine, AND PERFORMED SURGERIES ON COUNTLESS VICTIMS IN A COMPLETE ALCOHOL/DRUG INDUCED BLACK OUT.
That man should have had his medical license revoked 100 times. When people say "AA is full of criminals" I say how could we expect anything more from a deadbeat bum and a criminal physician?
Anthro
becket
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:38
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On the wannabe stock broker:
On the wannabe stock broker: it's wrong to want something, or it's wrong to want something and not have it, or it's wrong to want something but not work hard enough to have it, or it's wrong to want something but be behind the booze 8-ball and not be able to attain it - WHAT? You'd best not set any goals for yourself or you might have to eat this one.
On the good doctor: Is there anyone here who has not drunk his/her way irresponsibly through years or decades? Please explain what is abhorrent about someone spending time in a sanitarium before practicing medicine? I'd like to read an unbiased portrait of the good doctor performing under the influence. Please provide a link or two.
The deadbeat bum and the criminal physician were two human beings, and their profiles do not mirror the total AA population, not in 1935 and not in 2012. Get a handle on your yardstick, guy, so you can apply your point of reference accurately.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Clara
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 14:03
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I learned something today. I
I learned something today. I never knew Dr. Bob was a surgeon. Not all drs. are...
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
becket
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:20
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More cynicism.
More cynicism.
AA has not grown arms and hands and cannot pick up weapons to kill human beings.
Survival instinct is pretty powerful stuff. Anyone who believes he's been lied to, cheated, conned, been a target of adultery, been used or manipulated can always make a decision to change his or her life so the impact of these things dissipates. The options are always there. Bill Wilson's depression was not a character "defect", it was a mood disorder, and not one of choice. As for the narcissistic personality disorder, I know you would love to believe this, live_fume, but I know you are not an M.D. so your opinion is no more than a rant.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
JR Harris
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:30
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Charles Manson didn't kill anyone either, just like AA
Charles Manson built an LSD fueled cult and didn't kill anyone, his disciples did. If you are saying that if the disciples of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous end up killing people that the leader of the group is not responsible, then Charles Manson is not responsible and he should be released. Your statement makes no sense.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
becket
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:40
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I am not saying anything
I am not saying anything about any leader of the group. I am saying the program itself is not responsible for killing anyone. Besides, a few posts back, didn't you or someone of your mindset go off on how AA has no leaders?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
JR Harris
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 13:47
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No, AA claims it has no leaders, but it does have them
The leaders of AA are the Spiritual, not Religious priests and priestesses at the Interchurch Center in New York on 475 Riverside Drive. They hold the ultimate responsibility for what the cult does and does not do, they even publish it in GUIDELINES on pamphlet SMF-177.
http://aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-177_en.pdf
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 14:00
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J.R, I would say that Clancy
J.R, I would say that Clancy is the real leader of AA, not the business people at the Interchurch Center. That's not to let the business leaders off the hook. They make a lot of money off the cult for doing very little work. But it is Clancy who controls the masses.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 14:11
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Clancy is more like a 1st Lieutenant in the cult of AA
Clancy does have global reach, but mainly in the UK and not much in Australia. he does not have inroads into places like Korea, Brazil, Pakistan, etc..... where the Interchurch AAWS is trying to invade with Big Books and Intergroups. So I would say Clancy is just a Lieutenant, not even a one star General.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 15:35
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Yes, but what if Clancy
Yes, but what if Clancy ordered all his groups to go against AAWS? Who would control then? Keep in mind that Clancy can take over any intergroup he wants since all matters at the intergroup/conference level are decided by a majority vote and Clancy easily has the numbers. All he has to do is appoint a lieutenant in the area to create multiple satellite groups, all of which will send delegates to conference.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 14:00
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J.R, I would say that Clancy
Duplicate
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Mon, 06/18/2012 - 04:46
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Direct from the Interchurch Center compound of AA
According to the grand wizards of Alcoholics Anonymous currently occupying the 10th and 11th floor of the Interchurch Center at 475 Riverside Drive in New York (and various church basements worldwide):
What A.A. Does Not Do
- Provide A.A. recovery for addictions other than alcohol, i.e., drugs, gambling, overeating, etc.
The CULT has Spoken!
http://aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-177_en.pdf
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.