Farewell to the Orange Papers Forum

Submitted by humanspirit on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 15:26

Forums:

There are no doubt some people on this site who will cheer when I say this is my last blog on this particular forum, and possibly see it as a “victory”. That is their prerogative, and not one that concerns me. I’m writing this on the off chance that a passing reader or lurker might be reassured that, despite what they might have gathered from the behaviour of some on this forum, there *are* some safe places to go where they will not be subjected to the same put-downs, judgments, slogans, circular thinking, negativity, and AA-speak that they might have encountered in 12-step environments – and which may be exactly the kind of situation they are trying to get away from.

For a good start, see:

http://recoveringfromrecovery.com

(Obviously for the best and most thorough analysis of AA and the 12-step movement, see the Orange Papers main site.)

Please be assured that there are many, many people out there who take your sincere concerns and experiences seriously, and will not personally attack you or dismiss them with smug, spiteful, and irrelevant arguments if you if you try to express them. There are people out there who are concerned for the 95% of those for whom the religious 12-step program provides no solution, and are not solely and selfishly concerned with the (possible) 5% that it “works” for. There are people out there who believe that trying to treat a sometimes life-threatening condition with faith-healing and the mumbo-jumbo spouted in Wilson’s self-contradictory religious ramblings is an absolute scandal, especially when sold by 12-step rehab businesses. There are people out there who understand that powerlessness, self-blame, prayer, confession, daily seeking of the AA God’s will, and lifelong attendance at AA meetings is not a legitimate or effective method for tackling addiction and/or stopping drinking and should never have been regarded as such. And there are people out there who will share their strength, hope and experience with you, because they too know what alcoholism and addiction is all about and have been affected by it in one way or another.

This is a hugely serious matter that deserves to be taken seriously. Unfortunately this forum is one in which the serious grown-up voices have been drowned out by those who are out to wreck, and do not even pretend to present any coherent arguments in favour of the 12-step program or engage in any kind of rational debate. This is a pity, because this forum could have been a good one, despite disparity of opinion, and I hope that it might change one day. Meanwhile it has largely become an echo-chamber for those pro-AA people whose lives are obsessively devoted to posting on anti-AA forums and sniping at other contributors rather than furthering their own cause to people who might actually find their approach to be a helpful one.

However, in the end it doesn’t really matter what goes on here. What matters is that we try to effect some change, raise awareness in the wider world about what is going on under the guise of “recovery”, and seek to provide some effective and real help to those affected by addictions of all kinds.

Once again, I’ll plug this site (it’s not the only one, but you will get some helpful links to others from there):

recoveringfromrecovery.com

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 16:35

This coming from someone who was never an alcoholic, was never a member of AA and whose only connection was a partner who was forced to go to AA while in treatment. Which BTW, he doesn't even post here and he went to AA.
Thanks but no thanks to being a part of your goodbye whiny pity party . Why don't you for once grow up and take responsibility for your negative argumentative comments. For attacking members on this site relentlessly.
I am not happy that you have no back bone and you will tuck your head between your tail and walk but know this, it is on you, not anyone else. Stop blaming others.
You want to leave, leave.
But, please don't say that the alternate opinions on this site were heard and respected because they were not. The opposing team here (us/me) have been battered by a much larger group and you were right up there in front getting your kicks in.
Sincerely, take care and I wish you the best.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 16:38

Although I'm sorry to see you "go" I'm in full support of your decision and understand. Bickering and trading insults gets us nowhere except feeling a bit down. I too want to focus more on striving for what I believe would be postive change in the treatment industry.

I've always enjoyed your posts. They are logical and insightful. Well, I know that I'll be seeing you "around" so this won't be goodbye! In the meantime, my best to you :) ~Avo

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

humanspirit

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 18:01

Thanks Avo. As you know, I haven’t given up fighting the good fight by any means, but I don’t think this is the place (at the moment) in which anything constructive will be achieved. Seems to me it will just dwindle into a place where sad little people try to validate themselves by hurling around insults and trying to score their pathetic little points. If they were trying to sincerely argue in favour of 12-step programs, they would merit some respect, but they don’t even do that. I wonder what will happen when they only have each other left to talk to?

Given that most of the decent rational people from here have signed up to recoveringfromrecovery.com already, I’ll be talking to you all there. The point of my post – which I knew would draw much venom from the usual suspects – was to somehow remind people that this is a hugely serious issue and can be a life-and-death one. Amongst all the inane and childish squabbling and point-scoring, this is an aspect that some seem to have completely forgotten about.

One of the main problems with many 12-step people is that they are in complete denial about the futility and ineffectiveness of their own program and stick their fingers in their ears and say “la, la, can’t hear you!” to anyone who points out the facts. Why they do this I don’t know, and no longer care. They are irrelevant and not worth wasting any more time on. What we need to do is get out there in the real world and get the message out.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 16:45

Thank you for posting this, humanspirit. It's important that some are able to find validation for what they are thinking while trying to navigate through "recovery" when they search online, and not merely run into the same abusive people they are facing offline. There really is little worse when trying to find yourself after being surrounded by the abuses you face in "recovery" and finding only the echo chamber of prepackaged slogans and bile that seem to seep in everywhere that these subjects are discussed.

Stay strong, and never listen to someone talking against your better interests. If it feels like abuse, it probably is!

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 17:00

I don't understand why people feel that when they are leaving something that they have to make some grand production out of it. A guy just posted that he chose someone's wedding to make his big announcement while complaining that no one from AA continued to call him after all he had done for the fellowship!

And if you think you are going to go to recoveryfromrecovery.com and see something different, it is OPF redux with a bunch of complaining about Orange not taking the trolls to task, people giving the same advice you'd hear from an AA or Alanon only, for some reason, it is "different" because it is from them. I was sent the blogs because it was about me, and I was really thankful for the efforts on the part of some familiar names to keep the main complainer "in the now." I doubt she comes back since she was basically bitchslapped for bringing her trash over there.

But you see them revealed for what they are. "Oh, let's get together and bomb an AA board!" while over here shrieking at people that they had no right to be on OPF. It's rather humorous to see people behaving in ways they cannot wait to pick in others.

For those that go, enjoy it. I am grateful for those that refused to let it be a venting ground for a person who did nothing but lie about me in every forum she went to...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

humanspirit

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 17:42

Glad to see your husband has graciously allowed you to see my post. I think you might be getting somewhere in your struggle for self-determination.

Sue

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 18:18

You need to be bitch slapped for going on and obsessing over one individual; who by the way is not even around to defend herself. I read your comments on that joke of forum posted by Trish last night about Avo being stalked, that has now been deleted. You seem to take every opportunity you can to rehash an incident that clearly hurt you and made you angry. I didnt know that was possible for a person who claims to be so serene. Your even using information from another forum to slam her. Sounds hypocritical to me. You need to talk with your sponsor about that resentment that you cant seem to let go of. Thats a trigger for alcoholics.

Humanspirit, Thank you for posting this.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 20:47

Save your slappin' for Anti. She could be here to defend herself if she wanted to be. But it comes down to the same thing every time. She never could point to one thing that was done to her personally. No one asked anything about her and never needed to. Why would anyone run into her? She doesn't attend meetings, and even if she did, the one i said I'd be going to could have been one she could have skipped. It did make me upset because there are real instances of stalking on these boards, and it has happened to me. I was able to block those people even if you do get exposed to responses people make to them.

As for using something from another forum to slam someone, you apparently missed two peoplelast night using misinformation attributed to me that they got elsewhere. Plus, it is wrong for me to bring something here from RFR yet everyone on that bog, including yoursefl, was bitching about OPF. Didn't the forum have to be locked because of it, and Anti threatened with a time out? Again, why are the behaviors of the Antis different than those expected of AAs? There should be no difference. I complained last night to Orange with copies, and I noticed the forum was gone shortly after even though Avo and PIE deleted their posts...

If calling someone out for lying about me make me less serene in your eyes, so be it. It makes me feel more serene because she didn't get away with it. Even Ben told her to go to the police if she had been wronged legally. He overlooked that she said she already HAD been and had even called AAWS on this nameless, faceless person. It was horrible to wake up to that forum that day, especially when I was putting my dog down within a few hours.

Hey... didn't THEY bitchslap you on that forum? You might be in your cups already. Again, if you don't like or agree with a particular poster, you can ignore them.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 20:50

This isn't an AA meeting Clara, if you want to pull the "pity pot" card go to an AA meeting.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Sue

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 21:17

I really feel for you about your pet. I adore animals and i have had dogs or cats my whole life. I put my 17yr old cat down in January; so I know how you feel. I miss her everyday.

I dont think anyone on recovery who participated in the interaction that you read; would refer to their responses to myself or anyone else as bitchslapping. You were the one who used that term in the first place. Once again, Im sorry about your dog.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 21:42

Thank you. It was a very tough time, and that forum didn't help. I had asked her for one bit of proof that I had done anything to her, and she couldn't provide it. I told Avo to just move on from it on the board and let the police handle it and do their jobs, if she really had something to work with. When we got to the meeting, we couldn't believe that it was the one Anti blogs about incessantly. While we were already planning the vacation, we did go to the meeting so that we could establish the false from the reality. The responses on that forum were sent to me showed that no one wanted to hear her blather, and even yours, to some extent. I definitely came away from what I read that you didn't feel supported and neither did she. In fact, the same advice was given that I often say here. If you are talking about it, you are in it. I think they were just setting up parameters for the forum, not really looking out for me. But ba behavior iis bad behavior. You cannot laugh at someone's poetry that includes gangbangs, anal and oral sex because it is directed toward an AA, but then scream about someone else's post because an Anti perceived it was about her. But the filters of their minds are too coarse to see that it ony reflects on them, not me.

As for my dog. he was a great guy and it really upset me that the clinic didn't forward our case onto someone that could provide the care I was looking for - MRIs, chemo, and radiation, if necessary. He was still a healthy dog despite the brain cancer. I have since discovered a VCA vet clinic with all of tha just 4 hours away in Albuqurque. It just shouldn't have happened and I probably will always feel that more could have been done for him. He was a doll.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 21:48

CLar what kind of pot did you buy for your dog?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 22:24

Dunno, LFOD. I just know it was MMJ.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 22:26

How was it administered?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 22:28

I've already told you. It was infused in coconut oil.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 22:33

I don't recall you telling me that. How was it infused?

in·fuse (n-fyz)

tr.v. in·fused, in·fus·ing, in·fus·es

1. To put into or introduce as if by pouring: infused new vigor into the movement.
2. To fill or cause to be filled with something: infused them with a love of the land.
3. To steep or soak without boiling in order to extract soluble elements or active principles.
4. To flavor or scent (a liquid) by steeping ingredients in it: "He would infuse . . . vegetable oil with the pungent taste of scallions" (Nina Simonds).
5. To introduce (a solution) into the body through a vein for therapeutic purposes.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 22:47

Yes, you were part of the thread. Here is one of your responses...
live_free_or_die

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 04:43

Permalink

Initial perception

I actually read some of the CLar's first comments when she came onboard the good ship OPF.

I quickly surmised that she is a flake.

Since I don't read her posts can somebody give me her claimed bio?
Is she supposedly married to an attorney, who is her sponsor? Is he a criminal defense attorney in El Paso?
Is her pet addicted to pot?

"Once, during Prohibition, I was forced to live for days on nothing but food and water". W.C. Fields

NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS, SMART, WFS (Women For Sobriety)
>> http://alcoholabusesolutions.com

It ws infused in coconut oil and heated until it was a deep green. I wold shoot it down his gullet twice a day.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 22:56

Ok thanks CLar.

So did you get high at all when you were infusing? Sounds like a meth lab almost, don't it? Cooking up drugs for ingestion.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 23:00

I can't imagine that you would unless you did what I was doing to my dog, giving it to him to ingest. It doesn't smoke or anything. But making butter for edibles is usual. I thought when people made brownies they just tossed it in like flour.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Anthro

Sat, 06/16/2012 - 14:47

Geezus Clara...aren't you a little old for that kind of behavior? I did give my kitty a darvon once ...long long ago....and she just sat on the edge of the bed for hours in a trance like state. It was pretty funny but I was 20 then and wouldn't dream of doing such a thing now.

Some people just never grow up.

Anthro

Sue

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 22:18

Every time I have had to make the heart wrenching decision to put an animal down, I spend a considerable amout of time afterwards thinking there was something else I could have done. Im sure you did everything possible before making the decision; because the last thing we want is to loose those creatures we love.

Im curious about this comment you made to me. Hope you dont mind me asking.

" Hey... didn't THEY bitchslap you on that forum? You might be in your cups already. "

What does "in your cups already" mean. :-)

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 22:27

It means 'tight." It was a response to your AA insult.

She was just wrong in everything she pulled. JR even helped me with it. My sponsor had some fun with it because he told me if I had read the pamphlet "Groups" when he asked me to, I would know the anser to the question. The group doesn't pay any money to the local Intergroup because it doesn't have to. Membership to Intergroup is voluntary.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Sue

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 22:35

Im not sure exactly which AA insult your referring to that I made but I certainly could have. Ive been known to do that. You answered my question and more than I ask. Goodnight!!

Sue

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 21:15

In response to this comment you (Clara) directed at me (Sue):

" Hey... didn't THEY bitchslap you on that forum? You might be in your cups already. "

I ask you what Cups meant and you said Tight. What exactly does "Tight" mean. I was too tired to ask last night. I was going to let it go but im just curious.

massive's picture

massive

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 12:16

Clara
Shut up about anti D. This sounds like a combo of trolls writing this post. Nasty Nasty little trolls! You have not won here. We are moving on and doing our work without your constant abuse. In fact the abuse here was worse then what we experienced in AA when we were still working on the Make AA Safer stuff and we thought that was bad. LOL

If you are reading this and you are new to the forum there are other places where you can find ex steppers. www.leavingaa.com the old site www.stinkin-thinkin.com you can read but not blog right now.

Humanspirit Thank you so much for posting this. I think it is very important because there are many readers of the forum but they will not write because the troll situation is so out of hand. Many of us have moved on.

We are going to create even another anti site soon , just for activism and help for those leaving or those who have been harmed.

When I put up here that I was leaving and then not leaving it stirred up alot of crap but in the end it was important because some people who were reading this forum contacted me personally.

I do appreciate the orange -papers regular blog. Orange needs to moderate this blog or give someone else the reins to do it. I do read it occasionally so I can get some good news links but other then that I feel things are in the toilet here.

Great alternatives are Smart Recovery, SOS Secular Organizations for Sobriety, On Track and Beyond, Amy Lee Coy's way, and just making a combo of your own like gunthar did.

Also I have a blog talk radio where we expose and educate people on other choices. I interview many authors like Stanton Peele, Tom Horvath, Amy Lee Coy (FROM DEATH DO I PART), Jack Trimpey, Hank Hayes, Donna Cornett, Robert Whitaker who wrote MAD IN AMERICA, HOW TO CHANGE YOUR DRINKING by Kenneth Anderson. blogtalkradio Safe Recovery.

Having fun when doing this work is really important a new blogger told me. I agree. If it's not fun anymore....why bother. I have left opf for the most part for now...and I am having fun!

I did have to come in and defend my friend Anti D... great great person!!!

Massive

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 18:17

I will not, MAssive. When someone did soemthing to you, you screamed, carried on and allegedly raced over to the police department, even though you don't share what they told you about complaints such as these. Anti claimed to do the same thing but couldn't offer any experience, strength and hope, either, to you or Avo, who said she experienced similar abuses. She also couldn't even point to anything that had been personally done to HER, just that we were seeking to see if her claims about the Holly HIll Sunrise Group that meets at 9:00 on Sundays in the Daytona area wwere accurate. They weren't. If it isn't alright for you to be abused with lies, why should it be for others despite that they may be AAs? I am grateful that others on the forum shut her up and told her whining about Clara wasn't a welcome topic. Some of her supporters demonstrated the same kind behavior attributed to Danny, so I don't understand the self-rightousness about him when they aren't any different. Neither are you.

There are many ways to get sober. AA is but one. As Bill said, there are many paths to recovery. I hope whoever needs one will find it, be it AA or something else. And even in AA you have the choice as to how you want to proceed.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JoJoSan's picture

JoJoSan

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 07:00

Your nasty.

I am your relapse.

budlia

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 16:51

What is your problem?

I've seen some nasty keyboard warriors in my time but you take 1st prize,all this venom inside you will destroy you you in the end.

I pray that you come to your senses.

May god bless you x

SandyB's picture

SandyB

Sat, 06/16/2012 - 17:58

Link http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/1631

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 16:52

See ya.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

humanspirit

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 17:53

I hope not.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 19:53

Don't bait me.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

justme's picture

justme

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 18:17

I understand. The constant arguments here along with belittling, ridiculing, name calling, etc... are ridiculous. It's not pleasant. You take care of yourself. xo

JoJoSan's picture

JoJoSan

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 07:03

Your really nasty.

I am your relapse.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 07:39

Do you really think anyone would want what you have? Such serene humbleness....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 17:51

That would be *you're, Danny.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 19:36

humanspirit says: "This is a hugely serious matter that deserves to be taken seriously." No doubt.

But when one has to put on hip waders to get through this:
http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/86
One cannot help but to pile on, higher, and deeper (PhD).

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 19:44

Thank you for the advertising. May Bill Wilson and Boniface bless you.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 22:41

Exactly. Opinions, not facts.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 07:35

http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/86

And all you can do is give silly slogans and innuendo. I just call a cult a cult and give references to the source, what do you do?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 19:12

Sources do not always portray the facts. Sometimes police reports and court transcripts and particularly eye-witness accounts of events are unwittingly rife with inaccuracies, false impressions, lies.

Points for referencing, JR Harris, but demerits for assuming that everything you read is true.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/14/2012 - 20:49

JR,

LOL, that was funny!

patti

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 07:30

Humanspirit, I understand how you feel. We can really build something great on the other site. Some people want to hang onto here because they don't want this site to go to the trolls, but I feel that if everybody left the trolls would just turn on each other. It will make for some good entertainment. LOL!

I'll see you over there ; )

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 09:11

That's just what I saw on the recovery forum. It's as Bill W. said, when things fall, it generally comes from within. I just wonder where al the justificiation and rationalization comes from. If you mention someone here, there is this rush to defend that the person isn't here to rebut, yet that it just what you get at RecoveryfromRecovery. People talking about others from OPF. I was grateful, though, to see some peope demand some accountability out of some and to just leave it alone.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 11:54

Actually, I believe that if every AA-hating person on OPF were to flee to the other site, and all that was left here was a collection of people who do not hate AA, some of whom are current members of AA, Orange would simply inactive the forum and allow his Orange Papers to tell his story without a forum.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

billybudd

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 08:20

"subjected to the same put-downs, judgments, slogans, circular thinking, negativity"

I'm sure someone will step up and fill this role for you, humanspirit.

"hugely serious matter that deserves to be taken seriously ... echo chamber ... obsessively devoted ... in the end it doesn’t really matter"

Thanks for the laughs! Enjoy the diversity of opinion in you enclave! I miss you already!

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 08:31

billybudd! Long time no see! Where ya been?

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

billybudd

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 08:44

Give me some sugar!

Here and there, not far but very distant; time passes however one spends it, wherever one observes it. I've always been me along the way. Puzzling.

And you - how? Still gorgeous, I bet.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 09:30

Smooches atcha billybudd. I'm doing just great. You're looking pretty hot yourself today.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

billybudd

Fri, 06/15/2012 - 19:51

Tsk! I'm a tepid zephyr to your looming downburst of atmospheric hotness, my sultry category six (for sexy).

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