I hope it is safe to assume that these shortcomings are the famous 'character defects' so often referred to in stepper meetings?
The big question for me is 'does God remove these shortcomings if humbly asked?’ And if he does, then why is there a need to do Step 10. Why is there a need for continued personal inventory, if God has already removed our shortcomings in Step 7?
This raises a number of questions:-
1) Does step 7 actually work?
2) Does God only remove our shortcomings temporarily and if so for how long.....do they return at midnight like Cinderella at the Ball (come to think of it steppism is a fairy story) or can you have them removed for longer periods and if so, what’s the maximum time God will remove a shortcoming for?
3) Or do steppers constantly develop new shortcomings as a result of doing the 12 steps and going to meetings, and have to constantly take inventory and admit they are wrong? Steppism is therefore ANTIspiritual (not religious) and actually creates shortcomings and therefore spiritual diseases
4) Or do steppers hang on to shortcomings and it is these that have to acknowledged in Step 10 Or perhaps a combination of hung onto shortcomings and new shortcomings?
5) Can you partially hang on to a shortcoming so you only have half a shortcoming to acknowledge and admit you are wrong in step 10?
6) Can/will God remove a shortcoming that you are hanging on to?
7) Why do steppers humbly ask God to REMOVE their shortcomings in step 7 but only PROMTLY ADMIT THEY ARE WRONG when they find new or hung onto shortcomings in step 10?
8) Is Step 10 really a way to keep hung onto shortcomings, by just promptly admitting you are wrong, but not humbly asking God to remove them and therefore does Step 10 actually jeopardise a steppers sobriety?
9) Why not skip step 6 and go directly to step 7, a bit like playing snakes and ladders?
Can any of our resident stepper Gurus enlighten me as I want to understand the 'message'
Comments
becket
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 19:14
Permalink
This is true of all of us. I
This is true of all of us. I believe that is where we will find the genesis of The Question. When we don't know something here, I presume it's kosher to ask a question??
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
justme
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 16:19
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Umm... Becket, you're not
Umm... Becket, you're not making any sense. No, there ARE no "higher powers". None. I am NOT "the" supreme being. There ARE no beings any more supreme than any other beings. We're ALL supreme beings. Each and every one of us.
No, I didn't compare my art and poetry with any of those masters. I just enjoy doing it. It is LIFE to me. LIFE is supreme.
No, I don't subscribe to the Christian religion. .
I'm a pacifist. I believe in Peace. And Love.
People can believe whatever they want but once they start preaching their beliefs to me and telling me what I believe is "WRONG", then they're WRONG. All life is sacred. People should be allowed to believe however they want as long as they don't hurt anybody else.
Take care.
becket
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 18:02
Permalink
I'm sorry if you could not
I'm sorry if you could not understand my post. I use as much clarity as is at my disposal but sometimes people can't or won't get it.
I've been to the Peace and Love party, starting back in the early 1960s. As goals they are lovely. In life they are not as practical or plentiful as you might wish.
"People should be allowed to believe however they want as long as they don't hurt anybody else." Then don't tell me there are no higher powers. In doing so, you are treading on my territory and I might be inclined to UNLOVE you. I'm not jamming a higher power down your delicate throat, so don't come at me with an erroneous declaration like "there are no higher powers." None for you = OK. None for anyone, anywhere = WRONG.
Would you say the purpose of art is to please the artist only or to carry a message to the viewer?
Would you say the purpose of music is to please the composer only or to carry a message to the listener?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
NoAAUK
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 06:35
Permalink
"People should be allowed to
"People should be allowed to believe however they want as long as they don't hurt anybody else."
AA kills people, thats what the AA movement is all about, stopping AA spreading lies and misinformaition, ruining lives and killing people. AA needs to be EXPOSED
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
becket
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 19:27
Permalink
This is in response to justme
This is in response to justme's post above:
justme
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 14:36
"My only shortcoming is that I'm human which isn't really a shortcoming, nor a character defect, it just is what it is. The human condition isn't easy. If there were a God (which I have no idea if there is one or not), I wouldn't want him or her to take away my humanness. Being human is sorta cool. Nothing wrong with it. 7 billion people are doing it. :)"
justme
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 19:19
Umm... Becket, you're not making any sense. No, there ARE no "higher powers". None. I am NOT "the" supreme being. There ARE no beings any more supreme than any other beings. We're ALL supreme beings. Each and every one of us."
justme, can you tell me how you reconcile there two opposing points of view? And what do you truly believe? "I'm a pacifist. I believe in Peace. And Love." Maybe you should take the time to study the teachings of the real Jesus Christ, one of the original peace and love dudes, and a pacifist as well, or maybe the Buddha, or maybe Martin Luther King. That way you can know what you mean and what you believe.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
justme
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 21:26
Permalink
Beclet... Jesus Christ is a Myth
A beautiful, fascinating, wonderful myth. Study Joseph Campbell, the mythmaster. I already told you, I don't subscribe to the Christian faith. There's absolutely no proof that the man ever existed. Documented history and science go much farther for me than myths. That said, I often use the metaphors of the beautiful mythologies, including the Christian mythology, in my poetry. I have crucified myself and resurrected myself multiple times.
This is, of course, my opinion and all others can believe whatever they want. I only know who I am. Thank you.
becket
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 21:31
Permalink
I've been onto Campbell since
I've been onto Campbell since before I sobered up. Campbell was a Roman Catholic, so his struggles with mythology were difficult and profound, but I know all of his arguments, I have his videos, I have read and re-read "The Power of Myth" and I firmly believe he knew what he was talking about. He never claimed Jesus Christ was a myth. He claimed that the divinity of Christ was a myth, and that his story of life/death/resurrection was mythological, a morality fable that could be found in parallel myths all over the world in sophisticated and primitive societies. I understand what you're trying to say here. I still don't know whether you believe in God or not. Care to tackle that one?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
justme
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 21:42
Permalink
Joseph Campbell never said Jesus Christ was a myth?
Well, I do. I believe it's true. I believe it's one of the most BEAUTIFUL myths we have ever had the joy of beholding in our lifetimes! Check again. Listen again. I truly think Joseph Campbell equated them all together.. ALL the myths which have never been proven! The beautiful thing about it is that there are tribes all over the world who believe similar things!
Buddhists and those of the Hindu faith, African tribes and various North American Indian tribes.... it all comes together! I'm not knowledgeable enough to tie them together but Joseph Campbell was. I loved him! A huge loss. An historian, a scholar of mythology, and a thinker.
We're not here to talk about MY beliefs. I already stated several times on this site that I have no idea if there was or is a GOD. I don't know. I believe in science.
Thanks for the chat.
becket
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 22:44
Permalink
It would serve no purpose to
It would serve no purpose to claim that Christ never existed. Christ as a 100% human being, without the divinity, was hardly news; a political pest, perhaps, but no threat to anyone with talk of peace and love. Campbell didn't set out to disprove the existence of Christ as a man; he just addressed Christ as God, as the second entity of the Holy Trinity, and the fantastic, mind-blowing life and death that he had. This story shows up in various places all over the world. The interesting thing is that all of these myths developed independent of one another. Later on, of course, when Christianity was a going concern, and evangelizing became a way of life for people, it spread as an oral tradition and a written tradition. But the gospels were written long after the death of Christ and who knows how embellished they really are?
Why would someone want to disprove a myth if it teaches a society? Well, some people don't like to be bamboozled by anything, and so there has always been controversy surrounding these myths and what we do with them. You are fortunate to live in a country where you have a choice as to what you believe and what you live your life by. I think Campbell was right; he thoroughly and completely educated himself about mythology, philosophy, religion. He was extremely bright, bright enough to formulate an educated opinion about these stories and how they can illustrate goodness in life as well as what we should be wary of.
Scientists each have their own opinions about the existence of God, too. Read. Compare. Learn to understand these things on a deeper level. It will contribute depth to your art.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Trisha K.
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 21:45
Permalink
I wondered when Joseph Campbell would be brought up.
I don't have much to add Justme, right now about Campbell. I was just formally introduced to his teachings, thoughts and books about 4-5 months ago. What a interesting fascinating man. I am intrigued by his connections using mythology.
I had heard of him from people during a dream workshop, I had done years ago but never investigated. The teacher will appear when the student is ready, I guess.....lol.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
justme
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 21:55
Permalink
Trisha...
The only problem I have with proving Jesus Christ's existence at all is that there are zero contemporary writings which document that he lived. The 4 gospels (which I used to think were eyewitness accounts) were written 500-700 (something like that) years after he supposedly died.
But as my friend has told me multiple times... It doesn't matter whether he really existed or not. What matters is the METAPHOR.
You, too, can be sacrificed and buried and rise again to spiritually WIN, be happy and positively effect all those around you!
You just need to believe in YOU!
YOU are the godlike daughter or son. YOU can DO IT! you can overcome and rise again and be ALIVE to teach others the enlightenment of Love and Peace and Equality and Hope.
This is the purpose of Mythology.... through generations, over continents, combining with various tribes, the need and truth of PEOPLE needing PEOPLE and accepting people and LOVING people and FORGIVING people. That's what it's all about. LIFE. And LOVE.
LIFE is the SACRIFICE. Give yours to others.
becket
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:07
Permalink
"The 4 gospels (which I used
"The 4 gospels (which I used to think were eyewitness accounts) were written 500-700 (something like that) years after he supposedly died."
This is incorrect. The New Testament Gospels were written between A.D. 65 and 95. They are not, however, the only gospels. What about the Gnostic gospels, such as the Gospel of Thomas? What about the Lost gospels? "These 'lost' gospels were gradually eliminated from Christian circles. Many of the texts could have been burned or otherwise destroyed. Some, not as popular as others, may not have been copied by scribes anymore. Those that survive (such as the famous codices found at Nag 'Hammadi, Egypt) were likely hidden for safekeeping—so well-secreted that they remained undiscovered for over 1,500 years." ("The Lost Gospel of Judas", http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/about.html)
There's more to it than Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and there were documents left by eyewitnesses. How much was factual in their writings is left to the interpreter.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
causeandeffect
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 17:12
Permalink
Oh jeez, here we go with the
Oh jeez, here we go with the "you just think you're gawd, now doncha?" kinda shit. Becket, I got home and just read your other post, and started to feel some camaraderie with ya, and you had to go and pull this AAssssinine "you think you're gawd" shit. Thumbs down.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
causeandeffect
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 17:28
Permalink
And to do it to justme, who
And to do it to justme, who has never had a bad word for anyone? Come after me, why doncha! Go ahead. I don't care.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
becket
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 18:06
Permalink
Because justme is sweet and
Because justme is sweet and doe-eyed does not mean her posts are above discretion. I postulated something to her, MY OPINION, and she responded. Why are you compelled to protect her? She's a big girl. She came back on me. I had questions specific to art and music that I thought would be interesting for her to ponder. Oops - wrong again. She's rather ignore the inquiries and just paint and compose. That's fine. How would I know unless I asked?
This isn't a contest and I'm not looking for points from you, causeandeffect. Glad you found something of merit in Post A, sorry you were offended by Post B. That's enough.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
justme
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 22:03
Permalink
causeandeffect..
Thank you.. I'm fine.. You're a dear to be so cognizant of what's being posted and so caring. I appreciate your posts! thankyou!
becket
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 18:10
Permalink
I did not tell her she thinks
I did not tell her she thinks she's God. I wondered in print if she believed she was the Supreme Being.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
justme
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 22:04
Permalink
becket.. I know you didn't. and I answered what you asked
Thanks for reading my reply above.
All the best.
gigi
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 15:46
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Thumbs up, Justme. :)
Thumbs up, Justme. :)
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
justme
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 16:20
Permalink
Thanks, Gigi. I don't usually
Thanks, Gigi. I don't usually get into religious discussions online. I just don't like religion forced down my throat.
Trisha K.
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 21:10
Permalink
I wish people would stop telling AA members.....
that AA is religious. If you have been to AA meetings then you know most do not believe this nor do they care one way or another. AA is not damaging us because you believe it is a religion.
I'll tell ya, these comments are why at times I have a hard time believing some of you ever went to AA.
Justme I am not picking on you. I am just stating my opinion. If you would just look around most AA folks don't care, religion is not as important as it is made out to be here.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
live_free_or_die
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 21:12
Permalink
Numerous state and federal courts have ruled
AA to be a religion.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
becket
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 21:22
Permalink
We can see what sort of an
We can see what sort of an impact these rulings have had on the treatment industry, AA meetings outside the marketplace, and society in general. How many people have taken that case to court and won? A handful? As far as I can see this ruling (or these rulings) had no influence or impact whatever on business as usual. So what is your point? That everyone should have a bottle of Jack AND a good attorney so when the time comes they are ready to argue religious freedom?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
alkieanon
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 21:22
Permalink
Numerous state and federal courts have not ruled
Numerous state and federal courts have not ruled AA to be a religion.
"Those who spread hate, are the doormen for evil. Don't bite the flamebait that leads to hate.
Pennywise
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 22:12
Permalink
That is true, Alkie. The
That is true, Alkie. The courts have ruled AA to be religious, but have never, to my knowledge, ruled AA itself to be a religion. Indeed, footnote 9 in Inouye v. Kemna reads:
"We do not hold that AA/NA is itself a religion. We hold only that, for the purposes of reviewing the grant of summary judgment and on the facts alleged, the AA/NA program involved here has such substantial religious components that governmentally compelled participation in it violated the Establishment Clause."
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
live_free_or_die
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 23:47
Permalink
Religion. or not a religion.
This Court would agree were the issue an open one in this Circuit, with Respondent's arguments made in the same brief that "although there are religious underpinnings to the AA philosophy, AA is not a religion but rather a self-help organization designed to overcome the problems of alcoholism." Our Court of Appeals has subsequently held in the context of an Establishment Clause case that AA is a religion and that imposing attendance at AA meetings upon a criminal defendant violated the Establishment Clause by reason of the religious nature of the Twelve Steps. Warner v. Orange County Department of Probation, 115 F.3d 1068, reaff'd 173 F.3d 120 (2d Cir.1999). In Griffin v. Coughlin, 88 N.Y.2d 674, 683, 649 N.Y.S.2d 903, 673 N.E.2d 98 (1996), the New York Court of Appeals held that "Doctrinally and as actually practiced in the Twelve Step methodology, adherence to the AA fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and religious proselytization:
members are urged to accept the existence of God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the Universe. In `working' the Twelve Steps, participants become actively involved in seeking such a God through prayer, confessing wrongs and asking for removal of shortcomings. These expressions and practices constitute as a matter of law religious exercise for establishment clause purposes."
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2014795265389729960&q=cox+v+...
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Pennywise
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 00:12
Permalink
Well there we go. Good find.
Well there we go. Good find.
Edit: see post below
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 00:22
Permalink
Actually, as it turns out,
Actually, as it turns out, that case was overruled. On the issue of whether AA is a religion, the Court of Appeals said this:
Asking that we reject the district court's conclusion, the appellant cautions us against "establishing" A.A. as a "religion" and "concomitantly labeling its members as members of a religious sect," lest we offend "atheists and agnostics [and members of other organized religions] who have reconciled their personal beliefs with their participation in AA." Appellant's Br. at 49. We do no such thing.[12]
Organizations and community activities of many kinds, including, as here, therapeutic recovery-programs for alcohol or drug addiction, may involve "substantial religious component[s]," Warner, 115 F.3d at 1075, such that the government may not coerce individuals to participate in them or fund the inculcation of their beliefs without violating the Establishment Clause. But plainly, as the appellant urges, such organizations or community activities do not, for that reason, become or consider themselves to be "religions" in the ordinary sense of the word.[13] Step Three of the 109*109 A.A. Twelve-Step Program invites A.A. members "to turn [their] will and [their] lives over to the care of God as [they] underst[and] him." We doubt, however, that many members of A.A. would therefore identify themselves as members of "the A.A. religion." A Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, or Zoroastrian alcoholic need not relinquish his or her religious beliefs and "convert" to A.A. in order to follow its precepts.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1638880198743832546&hl=en&as...
Indeed, in footnote 12, the Court of Appeals clarifies its holding in the cases that the district court misinterpreted:
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
live_free_or_die
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 00:44
Permalink
You are correct
This case was overturned. It was overturned for other purposes though correct? That the confessions were not priviliged?
Correct me if I am wrong here also. I think that the court here is saying that AA is not a full blown religion, like Catholicism, but for purposes of the Establishment Clause, AA is considered a religion.
So within the strict confines of the Establishmnet Clause only, AA has to be a religion.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Pennywise
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 00:56
Permalink
Well, the Court of Appeal
Well, the Court of Appeals specifically stated that the district court misinterpreted the holdings in prior cases. Specifically, footnote 12 states:
So the Court of Appeals made it clear that it never held AA to be a religion. However, you are correct that AA is treated as a religion for Establishment Clause purposes. But that does not mean it is a religion for other purposes such as the Free Expression Clause or the clergy privilege.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
live_free_or_die
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 01:02
Permalink
Understood.
And this is the 2nd Circuit.
And the 9th.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Pennywise
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 01:08
Permalink
Remember, the Establishment
Remember, the Establishment Clause prohibits the state from forcing people to participate in religious activities. If a coercee can show that a group engages in religious activity, there is no need to make an additional showing that the group itself is a religion. Thus, the courts don't have much of a reason to go there in many Establishment Clause contexts.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
live_free_or_die
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 01:18
Permalink
Fuck the Establishment
This is why I find law stimulating intellectually.
It seems to me that if you are participating in a religious activity, you are practicing a religion. And if you are practicing a religion, there must be a religion to practice.
AA says they are not religious, and that agnostics and atheists are welcome. But down the road a bit the god word pops up and Bill W eventually comes around to admitting that it is god, and not a higher power that everybody needs to connect to. Sounds like a religion, and AA'ers are practicing a religion.
Can a person be a member in 2 different religions?
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Pennywise
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 01:40
Permalink
I agree with much of that.
I agree with much of that. As I said, there is usually not a need for the court to go down that road when the constitutional violation can be shown merely by showing religious activity. On any account, these holdings are probably good for us. Mainly, the Establishment Clause protects us from forced indoctrination in AA, while at the same time it is harder for AA to get the benefits it might enjoy if it were deemed a religion for purposes of the Free Expression Clause. So in that sense, we get the best of both First Amendment worlds.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:25
Permalink
To see what I mean about how
To see what I mean about how these rulings can work against AA, see this case, a snippet from which is reproduced below:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7773412378412953526&q=Glensi...
The Board, however, argues and we agree that Glenside presents no binding authority[13] for its proposition that an AA meeting is a religious exercise as that term is used in RLUIPA.[14] Glenside failed to prove that any of the meetings are administered by a religious leader, i.e., a minister, priest, rabbi or other spiritual leader. Glenside does not hold any religious services or have any religious affiliations. Its Articles of Incorporation state nothing about being incorporated for a religious purpose, but only to assist people in recovering from addiction. Similarly, Glenside's printed materials state that Glenside is not a religious organization and do not require that members possess any religious belief to participate. While Glenside argues that members have found a connection with God at its meetings, clearly, the primary purpose of the group meetings, whether they be for AA, NA or DA, is to support individuals who are recovering from alcohol, drug, gambling and debtor addictions, not to advance religion. Particularly where AA and NA meetings are concerned, the primary concern of those meetings is to treat substance abuse. Moreover, Glenside and others on its behalf testified that members come from all religious walks of life whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim or non-believers in a higher power. The fact that the 12-step program is used and it contains references to "God" and a "Higher 18*18 Power" does not mean that all members believe that they are partaking in a religious experience when they are attending an AA or NA meeting.
Because the group meetings are for the purpose of treating addictions and not for exercising religion, no matter what the religion is, the trial court did not err in determining that Glenside was not using the leased office space at 2285 Cross Road for religious purposes.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 13:29
Permalink
Two footnotes (esspecially
Here are two footnotes (especially the bottom one) from the above case that help illustrate my point about it potentially being a good thing that courts have not found AA itself to be a religion:
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
NoAAUK
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 05:03
Permalink
Choose one that values you and gives you strength because it sup
"Choose one that values you and gives you strength because it supports you and doesn't find fault with you."
Justme, I believe that is what God does if asked and often if not asked. Looking back it was God that got me through the hell of steppism, I made it out alive
A friend of mine once said " I believe man is moving away from religion and moving towards God" pity its not entirely true
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
causeandeffect
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 14:11
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"3) Or do steppers constantly
"3) Or do steppers constantly develop new shortcomings as a result of doing the 12 steps and going to meetings, and have to constantly take inventory and admit they are wrong? Steppism is therefore ANTIspiritual (not religious) and actually creates shortcomings and therefore spiritual diseases"
Yes, garbage in/garbage out, as they say. If you teach people who very likely have spent most of their adult lives drunk or high, and likely don't know themselves without a buzz, and tell them they are inherently liars, cheats and thieves, well, that's what they will become. We've heard from the significant others who this happened to. The alcoholics/addicts were good decent people who just had a problem with an addiction. Add steppism and they just go nuts and start behaving like mini-bills, not caring what they do.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
becket
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 14:43
Permalink
causeandeffect:
causeandeffect:
Did someone tell you what to write on your inventory, causeandeffect? I have never seen a person railroaded into making admissions of guilt, shame, or any other negative thing in AA. I've never seen anyone complete a 4th step inventory under threat or duress, acknowledging defects that they really didn't believe they had. That would negate the whole purpose of the inventory, would it not? Or have you never taken an inventory?
"ho de anexetastos bios ou biôtos anthrôpôi"
"ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ)"
"The unexamined life is not worth living for a human being." ~ Socrates
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
causeandeffect
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 14:50
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More garbage in/garbage out.
More garbage in/garbage out. My inventory was nothing new to me. But yes, I was supposed to take blame for things that weren't really my fault. I also felt pressure to make things up, because it wasn't all that long or thrilling. However, I didn't make things up. I just disappointed my sponsor, I guess.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
becket
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 14:57
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Did you balk at your sponsor
Did you balk at your sponsor's "demands" (my word) that you take blame for things that you say were not your fault? Did you take the blame? If so, why? I'm just curious; I don't understand how people get so lost in this kind of action.
By the way, do you contend that what I've written in response to your post is "garbage"? In the spirit of intellectual freedom within the inventory process, I submit that I enjoy a parallel freedom to ask you these questions without inviting rancor. I don't know why you've called my post garbage; maybe I've misunderstood you. Of course you don't have to respond. But that in itself is a response.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
NoAAUK
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 05:13
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"Did someone tell you what to
"Did someone tell you what to write on your inventory, causeandeffect? I have never seen a person railroaded into making admissions of guilt, shame, or any other negative thing in AA"
Becket, I ask again are you sure you went to AA? AA are the meetings where they keep saying "They told me...I want what they've got.....character defects." over and over and over again, in robotic tones, whilst others nod their head in solemn, all knowing agreement.
You feel there is something seriously wrong in the meeting but can't quite put your finger on it, then later when you read the Orange Papers, you realise you were being sucked into a cult with lies, misinformation and fear mongering
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
Trisha K.
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 05:25
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I think what you are feeling, NoAAUK,
is that you don't belong. Nothing wrong with this, I have joined a few groups in my life and left because I had no interest in what they were about.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
NoAAUK
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 06:48
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Did they tell you it was
Did they tell you it was jails institutions or death if you left?
It was fear of death that kept me in AA for the first couple of years, not the stimulating conversation
AA HAS to use fear to retain members, it has nothing else to offer most people
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
Clara
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 15:41
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I wasn't inherently those
I wasn't inherently those things nor was I led to think so, but booze could make me any of those things and did.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 15:23
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Yes, I kind of did balk. But
Yes, I kind of did balk. But then again, she was taking the blame for having been molested as a child, so I wasn't too surprised. I find that in AA, you're responsible for anything that ever happened to you, and there are plenty of quotes to back that up, which we discussed last night. You must find your part in it. No, I didn't take blame for everything that had ever happened to me. That sponsor didn't last long at all. Maybe a week. I later got a sponsor who was a really good person, and she didn't put that kind of shit on me. Of course, she never seemed to believe in the process that much.
Garbage in/garbage out. When you tell people who don't know themselves too well that they are scumbags, of course that's the way they are going to act. That's just Psych 101. While I do believe in introspection, the big book is very specific in assuming the traits alcoholics supposedly share. It's simply not true, just a projection of wilson. Understanding that his writings were more of a reflection of who he was, than who I am was a huge relief to me. I could finally quit thinking of myself in a way that was unrealistic. It was a freedom I hadn't known since before I started drinking destructively. It's good to know science backs that up. There's no such thing as an alcoholic personality. I don't believe that any inventory that negates a person's good aspects is beneficial in any way. It's just self-defeating.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 15:53
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My sponsor never told me that
My sponsor never told me that I always had a part in something. Some things are just random, you know. But sometimes my part can just be hanging on to something that I should have dealt with and discarded.
You brought up molestation. We had a very interesting women's meeting on those subjects in a rather general way. I avoid this because it is so heated. One lady's addiction has led her to become a prostitute. She had been raped many times by johns that thought, "hey, you were here to be paid, but I don't have the money and I should get it anyway." While it is absolutely NEVER correct, she did see that her addiction put her in a position to make very dangerous decisions and to be in dangerous situations. Another was my beloved Katie, who came to in the middle of a gangbang. She refuses to be a victim. She came into AA by virtue of her sexlife, that she would go home with anyone still able to drive so that she would avoid duis. She was a child, 18 years old. Again, absolutely NO justification for the men, but she understood that she was going home with people she knew nothing about, no clue as to their morals... Sometimes she would have to look at their MAIL so she could call a cab to come get her. These girls got that booze was dictating some pretty bad stuff. That differs from the woman that is walking to her car at the shopping center and some guy jumps her as she's putting her packages in her trunk. I know very well that there are places in El Paso that an Anglo woman has no business to be. As a sober woman, if I choose to go there now, I recognize that I need to be aware that something could happen to me and that I am courting danger.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
becket
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 15:55
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Realize that change inside
Realize that change inside and outside of AA is slow to come - we cannot even truly see the wheels moving. We are living in a time when yesterday's methods are coming under close scrutiny and found to be deficient, even damaging. But there is no real oasis to run to besides the confidence that we are all right the way we were made.
We are culpable for those things we actually did have a part in. It's our responsibility to carry that message, with or without the AA flag, to whomever is in a formative state. But a child is not responsible for being used and abused and raped and tortured. We are not responsible for every bad thing that has happened to us. Conversely, I don't believe we can take full credit for every good thing that comes our way. I do believe in serendipity without the cloud of superstition that some people attach to it. I had a series of sponsors that didn't fit, and then I found the one I could zip through the steps with. It's interesting to me that she eventually married a Buddhist and has assumed the Buddhist way of life. It makes sense to me, because she's intelligent and articulate and soulful. The smallness of AA does not fit every big mindset or disposition. I did my time and then I left. It surprises me how many people attach "AA whore" to me here when what I write about sometimes even flies in the face of AA. Mine is a multi-modal philosophy, still under construction at age 63.
Of course Bill Wilson's writings were a reflection of who he was - how else could or should it have been? It was not a meta-analysis, and it was over 70 years ago. I wouldn't want an orthopedic surgeon to make an incision on my spine for surgery while standing in front of a 70-year-old orthopedic medical book on a metal stand. Orthopedics is somewhat like mathematics; there's a tremendous lot of fixed information that will be good till the end of time. But some of it is in flux, and I would want the surgeon to be current on his book-learnin', to be state of the art in all the latest techniques so he could fix my problem without causing new problems and I wouldn't have to think about a bad back again. And yet, the same surgeon who did my lumbar surgery did my brother's cervical surgery, and my brother has had nothing but problems, recurring pain, numbness, reduction of physical range of motion with his arm. Best of intentions, not the greatest outcome. There are no guarantees. This is why we need to look out for each other. I hate seeing people assume leadership roles in any capacity when they are clearly unqualified. It's surgery with a bad outcome. And I found, too, that when I left AA, not many people were listening; the lion's share of them were talking, talking, talking in treatmentese, which sounded like shit to me.
I'm all for freedom, and I don't much mind how anyone gets there. But I don't see how anyone who is dead set against learning something new is ever going to find it. And I see a lot of DeadSetAgainstIt people on this forum. I recommend that they explore and investigate the beauty of The Grey Area. That's where the freedom is.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Clara
Fri, 06/08/2012 - 15:59
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Awesome, Becket!
Awesome, Becket!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
NoAAUK
Sat, 06/09/2012 - 05:30
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I recommend that they explore and investigate the beauty of The
"I recommend that they explore and investigate the beauty of The Grey Area. That's where the freedom is"
So when are you going to MM or HAMS Clara,
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
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