Can God miracle you to drink normally?

NoAAUK's picture
Submitted by NoAAUK on Wed, 06/06/2012 - 10:28

AA Big Book page 58 Fourth Edition

AA claim that Alcohol is cunning baffling and powerful and that without help it is too much for us.

AA then claim that God has ALL power. Then the 12 steps are suggested as a program of Recovery.

But there is not actually ANYTHING in the 12 steps about STOPPING drinking.

A question I have asked AA old timers before and have bought up on the OP letters page before, but nobody seems to be able to answer:-

If God can miracle you into being able to STOP drinking (provided you do the 12 steps and go to stepper meetings for life), why can't One who has all power just as easily miracle you into being able to drink normally?

My argument is that a Being with ALL power should, in theory, be able to miracle a person into being able to drink moderately, just as easily as he can miracle people into stopping drinking.

Why is there not a Return to Moderate Drinking Anonymous (RMDA) ?

Doesn't God like drinking? Jesus not only drank, but he changed all that water into wine at the Wedding Feast, so Jesus at least wasn't against drinking.

Come on Steppers can God only STOP you drinking, but can't make you drink normally?

And if God can't miracle you into drinking normally, has he really got ALL power or just limited power?

I think this question needs serious debate if you are going to make grandiose claims that the 12 steps can STOP (and only stop) you drinking

Comments

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 19:35

trisha k.,
Beckett will be back all day tomorrow & probably later tonight, it's irrelevant if Beckett isn't here now. Frankly Beckett is never quite here or quite there in any capacity.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 19:44

Then why the fuck are you telling me to "go away"? If I'm not here or I'm not a significant presence, to whom are you going to attribute your rant to "Beckett"?

Get it together.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 19:39

When have I lied? Show me a lie, patti. As I said, your belief is different than mine: I do not believe there is "The Truth". I believe we have our own truths. And get the goddamn apostrophes out of spots where they don't belong.

No one in AA can "force" anyone to do a fucking thing and you know it. And you have the audacity to bring up "unqualified diagnoses" when you are the QUEEN of such ridiculous pontificating. Because I disagree with you does not mean I'm insane. It means I see things differently. Or are you one uptight little soldier who can't entertain thoughts other than her own? At least I TRY.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 20:35

you lie all the time, you are lying when you write you do not lie. you lie & get busted in your lies on this forum all the time. you are unhealthy, why get upset with me cause of who you are & how you chose to behave? I'm not responsible for your lying or your unhealthiness. AA does commit the atrocities of unqualified diagnoses all the time, Wilson & Dr. Bob had absolutely no qualifications to diagnose any one, look at all the people still being diagnosed by them & their groups, Alanon telling the children of alcohol & drug addicts that they are as sick as their parents, this & diagnosing alcohol & drug addicts is unqualified diagnosing & AA does it all the time, they are following Wilson doing it first. Wilson & AA misrepresent themselves as having knowledge, education or qualifications, they have got nothing but insane psycho babble & Billshit. You advocate & support AA, you are on this forum every day, it's an anti AA forum, but you are here. You think you have good points, that's in your mind. I don't think you are insane because you disagree with me, I think you are insane because you disagree with every one, you are angry, you are childish, you attack people & attempt to insult them. None of your behaviors are healthy or rational. Why would I care if someone like you agrees with me or not? Come on, really, why would I care what you think, feel or believe or write, I don't give a shit about you.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 00:02

"You lie all the time" is not evidence that a lie has been told. I do not lie, not even to you. There is no reason for me to lie to you. Not one person has "busted" me on a lie because I haven't lied. Some, maybe most, may disagree with me, but that's a matter of philosophy, not veracity.

I have not accused you of being responsible for my lying because I do not lie. I have accused you of being a knee-jerk, toe-the-hate-line asshole, but I have never attempted to hold you responsible for anything I've ever written here. It is totally astonishing that you could fabricate such abject nonsense and expect anyone here to believe you.

I do not disagree with the fact that neither Dr. Bob nor Bill Wilson was totally unqualified to diagnose anyone with any condition simply because neither was studied in mental illness, psychology, social work or any other discipline. But as human beings they were entitled to develop opinions. They were also entitled to develop a program to try to help people in the ways they knew in the 30s and 40s. I went to Alateen as a kid and I was never once told that I was as sick as my alcoholic father. Never. Wilson and Dr. Bob are dead. Neither is misrepresenting himself today. I concede that people who have picked up the baton and have tried to champion the cause of helping other drunks get sober have evidently made a mess of it, but let dead men sleep. You are entitled to your opinion as well, and if you find that what AA has to offer is "psychobabble and billshit" then ignore it. Don't wallow in it.

This does touch on your tendency to diagnose others as "insane", "narcissistic", "borderline personality", etc. What gives you license to diagnose, doll face?

I advocate for individual choice. Every person should enjoy the freedom to choose his or her own way to living a healthier life without substances AND WITHOUT CONDEMNATION from the likes of you. You are in no position to judge anyone. Yes, I am here, and YOU ARE THE REASON I AM HERE. Under the flag of choice and freedom I offer my two cents' worth when it's quiet enough to make a statement. I know I have good points; I'm almost sorry they're over your head. They are in my mind until I put them out there and I know for a fact that there are some who otherwise find me a pest who have found something resonating in what I've written. But I'm not here for applause, honey. I don't disagree with everyone. I have found common ground with avogadno on occasion, and Pennywise, and even dolson long ago. But I frankly don't give a shit if no one finds what I write helpful. I do this for myself. As I write my own philosophy crystallizes. That's all I need. You have no fucking idea about any of my behaviors aside from what you see on this screen so, once again, you are jumping into the arena without a clue. I DON'T care about you patti, not what you think or how you feel or how long you can live like that. Don't worry yourself about it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 08:48

you lie all the time, the evidence is all over this forum, maybe you don't realize you lie all the time. you are here to argue & bother people, I can only surmise this is something you need. Wilson was selfish, a narcissist, mentally ill, a con man, an exploiter, a manipulator, an abuser and a liar. That myself & others call a spade a spade is simply telling the truth, not my truth, Wilson's truth. That he was mentally ill is obvious when reading the BB, he was certifiable. Dead or alive, Wilson has now been exposed, so has Dr. Bob, the stealing, the scamming, the throwing "fellows" in the fellowship under the bus. In your mind they were just 2 guys, trying to find a way to help other drunks, Wilson needed money, he had no skills, no job, he saw Buchman living off a group of people, Wilson copied, not only Buchman's Oxford Group's six steps, but the business of living off people who are members of your own religious group/cult. It doesn't matter if Wilson or Dr. Bob are dead or alive, they made the bad choices they made, they are responsible for their narcissistic actions, for the lying, stealing, abusing & all their other bad actions, they were bad guys, their choice, being now exposed & talked about for their reprehensible actions is a consequence of their bad behavior. Wilson documented his misrepresentations in books he published & lived & made a lot of money from, his lies & they are documented. Dr. Bob misrepresentations are also documented in writing. Playing the don't pick on the dead guys card, really? You are a liar, it doesn't matter if you lie & deny it again, you are a liar, why would a liar ever tell the truth. Alanon & the BB both tell the family members of alcohol & drug addicts that they are sick & Alateen tells kids the same thing, this is normal SOP for both groups, I know, not in your group. I have a right to condemn AA & it's members & Wilson & Dr. Bob, I have the right to call a spade a spade, starting with Wilson & Dr. Bob, current AA members continue to harm, damage, abuse, manipulate & lie to addicts who attend AA not knowing it is a dangerous religious cult & is unqualified & has an over 95% failure rate. AA, Wilson & Dr. Bob are not benign or benevolent, the group has harmed & endangered way more people than it has ever helped. When Wilson, Dr. Bob & current AA members decided it was okay to preach that others practice unqualified & absurd psychological "suggestions", they also chose to be criticized, that is one of the consequences. Grow up, when any one or a group behaves badly they have to accept & understand one of the consequences is being known for their bad behavior & called on it & criticized. Wilson chose to be a piece of shit. AA chose to be self righteous hypocrites, pious judgmental bullies, they chose to not be nice guys, just like Wilson & Dr. Bob, did. A cult's members become one with it's leaders, they become one & the same. If an addict used AA to cease their addiction & then didn't harm others, that would be benign, but it rarely happens, AA members become brain washed, are unqualified & often uneducated & harm others, it happens all day long, every day in AA. Every one, including me has the right to criticize AA & it's members. They like Wilson & Bob, chose to be piece's of shit & whether dead or alive, it's just too fucking bad that people criticize them & the cult of AA.

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 20:29

You know, what is insane about this is that there are people on OPF that share your feelings...yet still go to meetings. If I felt this way, there is no way I would ever set foot in an AA room again.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 20:38

They go to AA to educate the brain washed & isolated & vulnerable members, it's a decent thing to do.

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 20:54

Sure, they do. And these are the same people that complain that there are people on this forum that don't share their beliefs, therefore, have no place or reason for being here. If you can see that for this forum, why can't you see it for an AA forum? I doubt people in the rooms are as obnoxious to them as they are to AAs here.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 21:00

This is an anti-cult site.people come here to learn the truth behind the slogans and scripture of Bill Wilson. I think you are on the wrong forum if you are looking for anything else.....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 21:37

Clara,
there isn't any reason for you to be here with your different opinions, we are seasoned ex AA members, already tried it, rejected it, no reason @ all for you to be here. I know that you are truly brain washed & have been manipulated, but even you must be able to feel the pain of some of the forum posters here. They write of how they felt when they prayed & prayed but God or their Hp didn't step in & take over their will for them & cease & desist their addiction. They write of friends from AA, who were made to feel hopeless & like complete failures, cause AA brainwashed them into believing that they had an incurable & progressive disease & although they worked the steps, they would continue to relapse, God wasn't stepping in for them, they did not feel as worthy as successful steppers such as you, they were terrorized by AA members predicting gloom & doom, that their drinking would kill them, or mental institution or jail them, amid this hopelessness of the path that never fails, they couldn't succeed, they felt hopeless & committed suicide. You have read of the pain & suffering AA has caused people on this forum, @ their jobs, with their children & families, how it has affected marriages, relationships & even love detrimentally & destructively. You are aware that many AA members have been & are being abused sexually by so called "trusted" members with more time & therefore authority & then the group & AA abuse the victim further by asking what their part in it was? You have read of people here who have suffered childhood abuse, were innocent victims, but in order to comply with AA suggestions & steps were told they had a part in the abuse they suffered. Do ex members go to meetings to see if anyone there is feeling bullied, brain washed, abused, is questioning the endless contradictions & needs the fresh air of the truth & validation, you can bet your ass they are going there to advocate for the abused, for the downtrodden & easily manipulated addict. There isn't any reason for you to be here, we are seasoned, weathered, it's not the first day of AA school here, we have already saved ourselves & are here & there in AA to help others. You are here, I'm not really sure why, I guess like most steppers, you just can't accept AA being rejected by any one any where.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 00:04

Christ, pass the Kleenex. Where did you get your sorry sob story writing skills from? You think you're the only people around who have suffered? Fuck.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 07:25

Becket

I think Clara is misguided and brainwashed but does mean well in her own way, but you really are one of satans people, the genuine personification of the evil of steppism, you and your worthless kind are what we need to expose, you are a true wilsonite

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 07:37

NoAAUK - becket used to be on here as Marietta, but she was banned. You hit the nail on the head though with your description. This one is pure evil. She's the one who wished PIE a retarded child.

You can change your name Marietta, but you just can't hide that hate...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 07:25

Your opinion doesn't matter to me, Patti. But you keep doing your fourth step all you want. I've never seen anyone journal as much as you do. I haven't read many of the things on this board you claim because these aren't the things that anyone talks about.

I don't care if anyone rejects AA. I know people that have only to come back at other times. Others find their sobriety elsewhere. As long as they find it...it's all good.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 09:11

Clara,
then it is safe for me to surmise that the opinions of all the people who have been harmed & damaged by AA & Alanon, even the minors & children do not matter to you either? No one on this board talks about the damages they & their friends & families have suffered due to the cult of AA? that just isn't the truth. Why is the issue the length of my journal, instead of you answering whether or not you have any feelings of compassion or humanity for the people harmed & damaged by AA? you did not answer, what else is new or different? It's really a sad state of affairs, that you & other AA members only care about the small percentage of you & your own sobriety & do not care about all the attendee's who are harmed, abused & damaged & just do not care @ all about AA's lies & all the people thrown under the bus, so a select few can earn a lot of money, Wilson, Bob & current paid AA employees.

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 18:35

I have never read more poorly written BS in my life than this. You are on a tear. What are you chugging?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 19:17

Watch out Clara....lol.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 19:33

I wrote the truth Clara & you are attempting to deflect that what I wrote about the insanity & dangerousness of AA by calling it "BS & poorly written. How old are you Clara? That's what you've got as a rebuttal in a debate on a written forum. that is is poorly written, or BS or that I'm chugging. Why don't you respond to the issues instead of trying to deflect with smoke screens, come on Clara you & your words are so transparent, there is no one @ home upstairs.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 19:42

"deflect |diˈflekt|
verb [ trans. ]
cause (something) to change direction by interposing something; turn aside from a straight course : the bullet was deflected harmlessly into the ceiling | figurative he attempted to deflect attention away from his private life.
• [ intrans. ] (of an object) change direction after hitting something : the ball deflected off his body.
• cause (someone) to deviate from an intended purpose : she refused to be deflected from anything she had set her mind on.
• cause (something) to change orientation : the compass needle is deflected from magnetic north by metal in the aircraft.
ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: from Latin deflectere, from de- ‘away from’ + flectere ‘to bend.’"

Clara did not "deflect" one single portion of your post, patti. She merely made an observation about its idiocy. That is not deflection. Get a dictionary.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 20:27

When I so much as make a typo, some posters go on about it. for. days. I just find your rants to be humorous, Patti.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 20:29

and then some.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

patti

Sat, 06/09/2012 - 05:20

Clara,
oh, regardless of my rants being humorous or not to you Clara, please try caring about the people that AA harms & damages, especially the most innocent, the children that the AA spin offs Anon & Alateen, two equally as unqualified as AA, giving children suggestions & diagnosing them as "sick", the whole family is sick according to Wilson. Telling people they are "sick" when you are unqualified to do so, such as Wilson & AA & Anon members do daily, is abusive. Try to care about the people AA harms & try to care about the children Clara.

patti

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 07:52

@Becket

"Again: if an AA member evaluates "depression as a character defect", s/he is misinformed"

More to the point of the blog.....if an AA member evaluates "that God will remove the desire to drink alcohol if a person does the 12 steps and attends stepper cult meetings" s/he is well and truly MISINFORMED (or lying)

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 05:16

Now you ARE taking the p@#& Becket

More to the point how can attendance at those morbid cult indoctrination sessions NOT cause depression?

Its a very sad sad world in wacky sicko AA

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 11:19

How does AA "cause" depression? You did not answer the question.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 11:55

Just by being in it and reading those creepy books was enough for me

And people dying all the time helped as well

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 12:22

"And people dying all the time helped as well"

Well now, that's a rather gratuitous use of other people's misfortunes to shore up your argument, not to mention gilding the lily with "all the time". Wow, you're a piece of work.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 14:05

Its not an arguement, its just the truth about your sick satanic death cult

People need to know the truth about this stepper thing, to stop more deaths

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 08:01

@ Becket

"Well now, that's a rather gratuitous use of other people's misfortunes to shore up your argument"

I'm actually using other peoples misfortunes to stop more people suffering the same misfortune.

I was initially against the idea of using two of my friends (very good friends) deaths in AA to use against the cult, but it is the only way to expose the true evil of stepism and I am sure both my friends approve of what I am doing and are pleased that what they suffered may be used to stop other people suffering the same. I would not do it otherwise.

You people that want to ignore or play down the deaths and abuses in AA, Wow you're really a piece of work (Shit really, but we are trying to tone down the language a bit)

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 07:03

Constantly woffling on and on about so called 'character defects' with some nutjob stepper sponsor is bound to make most people depressed, AA is like 'out of the frying pan, into the fire'...the worst of my drinking was better than the stepper cult

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 18:45

As you know, my experince has been different. We've had people die, but not because they said the Lord's Prayer too many times. What happened to your friends?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 06:36

What happen to my friends

I believe it was because of the general fearmongering, lies and misinformation. One of them hated AA but felt trapped, like I did

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

patti

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 09:37

But people have died from addictions due to AA deliberating bad mouthing other rehabs, other options. Also AA has deliberately caused obstacles to research & scientific advancements. And AA & its members are well known for telling addicts AA is the only way & I've heard them bad mouth other alternatives over & over @ meetings. And AA & its members are well known for bad mouthing Doctors, the entire medical profession & medicines & pharmaceutical help & the industry. AA & it's members criticize any & all other methods, help & professions on a daily basis & they promote that AA is the only way & a miraculous & God given cure. Why won't AA members just tell the truth, that AA is rarely successful, that they are part of the lucky 3-5%, the program worked for successfully? Why can't they just tell the truth?

patti

gigi

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 09:43

"Why can't they just tell the truth?"
They think that they are telling the truth. They have faith. Lots and lots of blind faith.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 05:05

@ Becket

"and didn't have reason enough to get greedy and ask for "another miracle".

So what about step 7 then?

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 00:06

We're done. Fisticuffs FAIL.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 06:53

Why did Wilson beg for whiskey in his death bed? Why didn't Wilson just pray to God for the miracle of the people there just getting him a Goddamn whiskey? If Wilson had turned his life & will over to God years & years earlier & prayed for the miracle of sobriety to be bestowed upon him, why was he begging for whiskey on his death bed? Why wasn't the miracle God had bestowed upon him, sobriety, working for Wilson that day? Wasn't Wilson grateful to God for the miracle of sobriety, didn't Wilson want to share his miracle of sobriety with his last days on earth & alive? Why would a dying man, curse the God who bestowed a miracle upon him & demand & beg for the whiskey that he was miraculously saved from by God? Why would any human who was lucky enough to be chosen by God for the miracle of sobriety, for the miracle cure for his medical disease of alcohol addiction, for God stepping into Wilson's life of all people & bestowing the miracle of healing his spiritual sickness. I doubt many people would be cursing God the last few days of their life, whether they had been chosen by God for a miracle like Wilson was chosen or not.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 11:34

Did Bill Wilson beg God for a drink of whiskey, or did he demand it of those who were at his deathbed? If he demanded it of those in attendance and the answer was "no", then it was a human decision that whiskey was inappropriate at that moment, not a divine one.

Have you ever attended the death of a conscious person, patti? I mean one that was not already comatose. All kinds of things get said, out of fear, mostly, but sometimes in a delusional state. Maybe you could allow for the possibility that the light was going out for him and try to understand this from a human perspective. I don't deny that Bill Wilson had faults, plenty of them, but kicking a man when he's down, when he's dying, that's really unjustifiable.

You continue to ask questions that cannot be answered, as if setting up Bill Wilson in this negative light credits you somehow. No one on this board knows what went on in that room. Conjecture is just that, nothing more.

Your cynicism about Wilson's belief that he was "chosen by God for the miracle of sobriety", blah blah", has been duly noted. It might be interesting to read one of your posts that contains insight in place of acrimony.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 12:06

"kicking a man when he's down, when he's dying, that's really unjustifiable."

I'd like to p@#% on his grave the lying theiving conman sexual predator cum Acid head piece of s?&#

And that deviant child battering doctor's as well

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 12:25

Well then, piss away your life. Soon it will be over. No regrets, no hard feelings. Just done.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 14:08

I think there is a lot of hard feelings about Wilson and Smiths lives, they've left a lot of misery in their wake, 77 years of it

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 18:33

A bit melodramatic, methinks. I am sure that are also numerous people in the last 77 years that have been very gateful.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 07:11

Methinks there are a LOT more that are NOT grateful for AA over the last 77 years, if the truth were to come out.

Thats what the OP is about, getting the real truth out

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 05:37

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ...." Matthew 24:10

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 07:08

Its NOT about me, I'm out of the madhouse, its about those who are coerced into stepism or are afraid to leave because they believe the fearmongering cult bullshit. Thats the whole point of the Orange Papers to help the Alcoholic who still suffers in AA

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 17:19

Beckett,
I have witnessed & experienced the conscious deaths of many people & not one of them acted as Wilson. They made peace with any & all people & situations. When someone is dying it is the best of times & the worst of times. The dying person & the people holding their hand have a heightened awareness regarding life & what is important & what is not. The people who's deaths I have shared spent their last days & hours, conscious & telling every one how much they loved them, we all shared love, peace, thankfulness for the great & bad times we shared. It was nothing like Wilson's death. And the people in my life who's death I shared were nothing like Wilson, they were not mentally ill, they were not sociopath's, narcissist's, con people, liars, adulterers, thief's, they were @ peace @ the end of their life's, knowing they had lived & loved well & had left the world & some people in it better. Wilson wrote & stated verbally that all an alcohol addict has to do is turn their will over to God or an HP & pray for the miracle of sobriety. These are AA & Buchman words, AA members are "miracles", just cause they quit drinking, a choice they made, God steps in & miraculously saves the AA member from the disease of alcohol addiction cause they did the steps properly, this is Wilson's Billshit, not mine or any other sane & reasonably intelligent persons. Again, AA tactic all you want, lie, deflect, twist & skewer the truth, do what you gotta do, none of your further lies or digressions or deflections are going to change the truth, Wilson & AA are frauds & reprehensible.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 00:11

Well thank you so very kindly, Charles Dickens, for that astute and probing analysis. I must be the last to know you were actually at the bedside of Bill Wilson when he died. For somebody who houses so much venom for Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob and AA, you spew that cultspeak like a goddamn pro, patti.

Are you by any chance a freshman in college? High school?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 07:18

Becket

She's talking about real life events with real genuine people.................not a bunch of frightened drunks spouting a load of cult mumbo jumbo in church basements because they think it will stop them drinking

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

patti

Fri, 06/08/2012 - 09:51

You asked & I answered Beckett. & Clara not every one who dies is old & suffering from delusions or dementia, young people die too. My Dad died from lung disease, just like Wilson & my Dad was the coolest guy in the universe & he died well just as he lived well, a decent, kind & honorable man, & not one person in the world has anything but great things to say about my Dad cause he was a great guy & that's the legacy he left.

patti

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