Can God miracle you to drink normally?

AA Big Book page 58 Fourth Edition

AA claim that Alcohol is cunning baffling and powerful and that without help it is too much for us.

AA then claim that God has ALL power. Then the 12 steps are suggested as a program of Recovery.

But there is not actually ANYTHING in the 12 steps about STOPPING drinking.

A question I have asked AA old timers before and have bought up on the OP letters page before, but nobody seems to be able to answer:-

If God can miracle you into being able to STOP drinking (provided you do the 12 steps and go to stepper meetings for life), why can't One who has all power just as easily miracle you into being able to drink normally?

My argument is that a Being with ALL power should, in theory, be able to miracle a person into being able to drink moderately, just as easily as he can miracle people into stopping drinking.

Why is there not a Return to Moderate Drinking Anonymous (RMDA) ?

Doesn't God like drinking? Jesus not only drank, but he changed all that water into wine at the Wedding Feast, so Jesus at least wasn't against drinking.

Come on Steppers can God only STOP you drinking, but can't make you drink normally?

And if God can't miracle you into drinking normally, has he really got ALL power or just limited power?

I think this question needs serious debate if you are going to make grandiose claims that the 12 steps can STOP (and only stop) you drinking

Comments

becket's picture

Thanks for playing!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

"This is actually the most frustrating part of my day" - then don't come here - problem solved...lol.

The rest of your life is enjoyable? Is this the same person who said a few days ago her life was more misery than joy or some such? You seem to go in up and down cycles - get the meds checked...lol

You have a responsibility to question? Don't make me laugh. Every time you "question" something you paint an extreme picture that could never exist, tear it to pieces and then get angry about it. Look through your posts - every scenario you create is a ridiculous extreme. "Middle Ground" Marietta may be a name you're aiming for but you've missed every time so far...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

I love you too, btnben.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

these endless childish responses, a school yard mentality & persona. and as always evading the points that were made. exhausting, but that's the point isn't it.

patti

NoAAUK's picture

Becket

"chasing down lies and deceit and closed-mindedness and bias,"

I thought you said you didn't go to AA meetings anymore

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

Is this an example of what you have substituted for wit?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

*

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

Becket

So you agree AA is a lying misinforming fearmongering cult religion?

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

No, sir, I vehemently disagree with your twisted question.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

So you agree the stepper claim of 'Jails Institutions or death' if you leave the cult is just a scaremongering lie to frighten vulnerable new recruits from leaving the cult?

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK's picture

Why didn't you think you could just quit?

Because a 'well meaning but wrongly informed doctor suggested I go to AA, and I fell for all the powerless, disease nonsense.

There was no Orange Papers or Anti AA movement broadcasting the truth those days

Nor was there a widespread other option then nor is there now. SMART UK which has grown a bit in the last 3 years is just repackaged AA, run by steppers as far as I can see.

AA is for those who want cult religion and/or control of others for sexual or other reasons. How can sitting about in those morbid meetings confessing character defects and constant repetition of cult speak over and over again possibly have any bearing on stopping drinking? Its just cult pure and simple.

I don't understand how you can't see it. You really look pathetic when you spout the same rubbish over and over again "They told me......I want what theyve got.......AA saved my life" blah! blah! blah! All knodding in agreement solemnly

Its a sad way to spend your evenings....sad....very sad

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

But why would you need Orange Papers? MM was around in 1994 and HAMS since 1996. Again, it comes down to wanting to drink and so you do. People go to AA to stop drinking. People go to HAMS and MM to just play around with it, IMO.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

We may discuss other options, but this isn't a "recovery forum", Clara. Why would you even think that? AA is a mean, devious, dishonest cult that needs to be exposed.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

You mean you needed "help", NoAAUK?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

No I just needed the correct infomation like what the Orange Papers, MM, HAMS and SMART (in Theory) say.

And if I wanted Gods help............ to stay clear of satans stepper cults

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

So now you think you have the "correct information". It seems not to have fulfilled you in any way or made your life better. I could be wrong, I admit, but you seem pretty sour. Maybe it's just your natural disposition. Please explain how The Orange Papers have improved your life, given you clarity, lifted your spirits, enjoined you in a fellowship of ex-victims. Would love to read it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

The Orange papers firstly made me realise I was not powerless over alcohol, that was just Con man and sexual predator Wilsons adoption of the Oxfords Groups Powerless over sin idea, for his own cult, in order to scare people into membership

Secondly I learned that Wilson had his spiritual experience whilst zonked out of his head during the Belladonna treatment. Then I learned Wilson was not only a sexual predator but a total nut job who got the 12 steps from Frank Buchmans Oxford Group cult....not God. Then I learned that the deviant doctor liked to beat his daughter with a sharpened stick. These pair were not bearers of Gods message for mankind, but just a pair of deviant con men...........................wait a minute, I'm not going to rewrite the Orange Papers for you, why dont you just read them instead of annoying people on this forum.

Yes I am pretty sour and will remain so as long as other people still have to go through the same stepper nightmare that I had to, with the blessing of the unknowledgeable general public and the final audacity.......in the name of God.

If I live to see steppism banned in the UK, I will become serene and at one with the cosmos....a veritable child of the universe with tolerance and rigorous honesty etc coming out of my ears......and whatnot

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

If you're so savvy, how come you got sucked into AA in the first place? If it didn't sit right with you, why did you need the Orange Papers to lead you out into the sunlight? If your reason for leaving AA was to escape bullshit, how come you continue to spew it yourself?

You sacrifice yourself on the altar of the "stepper nightmare", which is a useless, senseless waste of a person and is also a very convenient dodge for not addressing the fact that you're still sour. What improvements did you realize when you left AA and the Orange Papers saved your life? You're like so many here, you're still livid over your "victimhood" and you're going to by god get back at those bastards no matter what it takes or how long. Sour. Wasteful.

You would actually gamble your serenity on the implosion of AA in the UK? What folly. Live in spite of it. If you keep looking at and talking about and cussing and picking at that scab, how is it ever going to heal?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

I’ve told you before how I got sucked into AA on the advice of a well-meaning, but misinformed Doctor. I also told you I had left the stepper cult long before I came across the OP. In fact I had not had serious long-term involvement with the stepper cult for 30 years, prior to finding the OP. I also said the OP clarified what I experienced in the stepper cult, it didn’t save me, it just helped tremendously.

Regarding spewing Bullshit, it’s not me who is saying go to those pathetic cult meetings and keep repeating "they told me....I want what they've got....character defects etc. etc." over and over again, year in year out, if you want to stop drinking.

"You sacrifice yourself on the altar of the "stepper nightmare",

I am not sacrificing anything on a stepper nightmare altar. I enjoy exposing your sick pathetic cult at every opportunity, I love doing even a little to contribute to the eventual demise of this disgusting evil

"What improvements did you realize when you left AA"

I was no longer obsessed with cult bullshit 24/7 and also no longer suicidal

I don't intend to get back at any stepper bastards, I just want to help stop them carrying on this evil for another 77 years

"You would actually gamble your serenity on the implosion of AA in the UK?"

stepper bullshit cult speak and I would like to pick at the Stepper scab till it falls off

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

"exposing your sick pathetic cult at every opportunity, I love doing even a little to contribute to the eventual demise of this disgusting evil"

Once again, it is not my cult. You're just not even going to try to understand a different point of view, so I'm taking off. If you were sour for 30 years before you found the OP and you're still sour, I don't hold out any hope that things will ever be any different for you. You are too contaminated, STILL, to carry on a conversation.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

Are there many more mean, devious, dishonest things that can be said about AA here? I'm tired of the same old drivel.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

AA still continue with the same lies, misinformation and scaremongering that they always have. Never changing repetition is the hallmark of AA.

It not our fault if it’s the same criticism over and over again, you have to meet us half way, can't AA vary its Bullshit a bit?

Come on steppers invent some NEW cult garbage for us to expose........and some new f@#&$%g slogans for Gods sake

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

" . . . you have to meet us half way . . . " Why? If you want to punch somebody in the face, why wait for them to give you that opportunity? You don't need to be met halfway to land a fist.

If you think AA's alleged practice of disseminating lies and misinformation and scaremongering is reprehensible, why do you do the very same thing?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

Dont need to lie about your sad cult, the truth is enough to have it banned, if we can get it out on a large enough scale

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

This has been responded to.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AA & Wilson & Smith are documented liars. AA is going to continue to be exposed as the fraud religious cult & ineffective rehab method that it is, it is what it is & the truth is the truth. It's in your mind that we are one & the same with AA, we are polar opposites of AA & what it is, that is why we rejected it.

patti

Trisha K.'s picture

When did AA take this turn, JR?

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

NoAAUK's picture

I first became involved in the stepper cult in 1980, 14 years ealier.

People need the Orange Papers to deprogram from the lies, misinformation and fearmongering of the stepper cults.

The Orange Papers actually DO work as deprograming from steppism

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

My math is faulty but I believe that MM was started 14 years later than when you got sober. Still, OP wasn't there, either, but you still have the method that is most celebrated on this board, and that is just walking away from it. Most of the people on this board think that is the way to go despite that they also had the benefit of using all of the programs they support or abhor. Perhaps they walked away with just enough from all of them to make it happen.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

This is an anti-cult site, we don't do the Steps of the con man Bill Wilson and for the most part doesn't promote any Scientology-like recovery programs like Alcoholics Anonymous. Get over it....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

NoAAUK's picture

I stand corrected my maths are wrong and Ive changed it to 14 years, but there was no MM in the UK till I attempted to start it, just over 3 years ago

Incidentally I was sneakily removed as facilitator MM London when I inadvertently recommended my own successor.
I was removed from MM because of my Anti AA Stance. I am no fan of MM or SMART I just like their ideas, there leadership are as devious as any stepper in many respects

I support neither MM nor SMART Recovery and would not recomend either organisation, although I would recomend their literature, especially MM's Responsible drinking book

Their leaders, I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

Why would they care, NoA? That's interesting.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

I don't know the answer to that one Clara, self preservation, political correctness......I honesty don't know.

I don't believer AA has anything to fear from either MM or SMART

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

Why did you go to a doctor at all? Why didn't you just put the shit down?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

Because I was in a total mess, I was taken home from work with terrible shakes.

Ive never fully recovered from that breakdown, and exposure to steppism made it far far worse.

The very LAST thing I needed in 1980 was that disgusting sick deviant twisted stepper cult

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

"Ive never fully recovered from that breakdown."

Uh huh.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

It got better when I found the Orange Papers though

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

alkieanon's picture

NoAAUK says: "AA is for those who want cult religion and/or control of others for sexual or other reasons." Dooh! Thought AA is for those who have "a desire to stop drinking".

Or maybe AA is irrelevant since NoAAUK says: "... God can miracle you into being able to STOP drinking ...."

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ...." Matthew 24:10

NoAAUK's picture

"NoAAUK says: "... God can miracle you into being able to STOP drinking ...."

It’s AA that says God can miracle you into being able to STOP drinking......I say it’s a ludicrous idea, that was the point of this blog

AA is NOT about stopping drinking, it’s about going to those awful meetings for life and constantly regurgitating the same cult speak over and over and bloody over again.......an solemnly nodding your head in agreement with the other zombies.

Stopping drinking is irrelevant. Anyone who stops without attending the cult is a dry drunk or 'not' a real alcoholic or whatever.

My initial 2 years in AA I remained totally abstinent (despite AA’s scaremongering) and used to go into bars and pubs drinking soft drinks.....AA hated that, the abstinence was irrelevant......the AA gurus wanted me to go to more and more meetings and get more and more involved in AA (cult recruitment)

Thats just CULT pure and simple, it is nothing to do with solving an alcohol problem

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

Just who is directed to go to meetings for life? No one. No one is locked in. There are no restraints except for the ones we inhibit ourselves with. One can leave at any time, except the mandates, who should be in jail or prison, not in meetings. Other than that, most folks attend voluntarily. The program is portable - one not need to continually fill the tank with meetings. If one decides it's a decent way to proceed in life, then that person can take it with him or her. There's no need to go to continuous meetings.

Some attendees are in worse shape than others, but not everyone in a meeting is a zombie. That's just more of your bullshit showing through. I simply don't understand how you could have allowed "gurus" to bully you. Don't you have any sense at all? I did. When I was done with it I was done. I enjoyed the people and the discussion and the milestones and all that for some time, and then I was done. I did not attend against my will. I would not have done so. Why did you? Were you that invisible to yourself that you didn't even know what you wanted? Because you evidently could have just put down the drink, you know. So how is it AA's fault that you did not stop drinking on your own?

You're going farther and farther out on a limb with this stuff. I for one am finding it more difficult to understand your situation with each successive post of yours. I do understand one thing though: you did not leave AA even though you feel you were being hounded. That makes no sense, from a human point of view. This isn't China, this isn't Zimbabwe or the Sudan. You had choices all along. And now you want to blame others for the choices you made. Man.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

if you don't keep coming back you will die, or end up in a jail or institution. if you don't keep coming back, you will first regress into a "dry drunk" ??, then you will relapse & drink until you die, or end up in a jail or institution. if you do not follow AA's path, which is always successful, you will be signing your own death warrant. Fact this is AA speak & philosophy, you better keep coming back for life or you will hopefully just die, rather than live a life of hell in jail or an institution. Sounds like directions to attend AA & meetings & cult up for life or you will die, go to jail or an institution. Most members attend voluntarily, that's a straight up lie, 2 million worldwide, small percentage of the population, 60% are forced to attend, only 40 % are there voluntarily & most of them do not attend within 1 year of beginning. If it wasn't for the forced attendee's AA would be as small as the Oxford Group is now, practically non existent & extinct.

patti

becket's picture

And this is allegedly AA from which decade? It does not say these things in the Big Book, so it's not AA from the 30s or 40s or 50s, and when my mother went to meetings in the 60s that was not the mantra. So when did this bullshit start? Also, patti, the hyperbole is really just not appreciated. I know you're being a cynical wench and you want to grandstand with your exaggerations, but it does not add anything to the discussion - in fact, it is a distraction. You are distracting me from your post with it - is that your aim? If so, you're more naive than I thought. You are quoting statistics without a reference. Until I see these numbers on a document with some authority I'm going to believe you're blowing this out your ass.

Bring it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Beckett,
why does a person who advocates AA & defends it vigilantly & ferociously such as yourself, need documents with some authority. AA, Wilson & Smith had & still have no authority, no documentation. What is documented is how AA just does not work & fails miserably. Why does the stepper need proof, just have faith, AA doesn't work, over 60% of it's members are sentenced, Beckett you know this is the truth, it is common knowledge.

patti

NoAAUK's picture

@ Becket

"Just who is directed to go to meetings for life?"

You must have left the cotton wool in your ears mate, that’s the whole point of steppism...that you go to meetings for life saying "they told me.....I want what they’ve got....serenity…. blah! blah! blah!" Thats why they tell you it’s jails institutions or death if you leave the cult. Didn't you listen or did you just fall asleep the whole time (best thing)

"If one decides it's a decent way to proceed in life, then that person can take it with him or her. There's no need to go to continuous meetings."

You really did leave the cotton wool in your ears didn't you. BTW what is there to TAKE with you, you can't take those bullshit cult indoctrination sessions with you, you have to attend them, unless you hold them in your own home.

"Some attendees are in worse shape than others, but not everyone in a meeting is a zombie."

They mostly were at the meetings I attended.....head nodding zombies......all talked the same and even had the same Dalek like voices, except instead of saying "exterminate" they said things like "high my name is so and so and I'm and Alcoholic....and they told me....get yourself a sponsor etc etc

I didn't allow gurus to physically bully me, they were for the most part wimpy little no marks, they work with the "AA are the experts and we know everything" lie and because steppers are possibly the greatest con artists on the planet, at a very vulnerable time in my life, I fell for the cult indoctrination. That’s why the growing Anti AA movement exists because AA is adept at coning the vulnerable, and getting people coerced into its cult indoctrination sessions.

"I enjoyed the people and the discussion and the milestones and all that for some time,"

How could you have had any discussion with the cotton wool obviously still in your ears, if you did not hear the 'jails institution or death threats and the other cult fear mongering bullshit characteristic of steppism?

"Because you evidently could have just put down the drink, you know."

what about the mental blank spot? not only didn't you listen at meetings, you obviously didn't read the Big Book either....did you transfer the cotton wool from your ears to your eyes, when you got home?

Have you actually ever been to a stepper meeting? You don’t seem to know anything about steppism

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

I'll say it again: we're done.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

"I wish the day would come when a former AA would just agree that he left the fellowship because he wanted to drink."

I wish the day would come when a current AA would just agree that some people leave the fellowship because AA sucks. I wish the day would come when a stepper would admit that leaving the fellowship does not automatically mean that the person leaving wants to drink.

Edit: Furthermore, I wish the day would come when my posts end up where I intend them to. Jeeze.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

I agree that it sucks for some, and it wasn't what they wanted or needed. They tell me that much when you look at what they think the ideal alternative. Always some sort of drink moderation program which simply means that giving up drinking wasn't what they wanted to do. If you don't have a desire to stop drinking, AA surely will suck for you. If you want to learn how to drink like a lady, AA isn't for you. It isn't for you if you want to be able to go to the pub and drink like one of the guys and make it home all right.

Not everyone leaving the fellowship does want to drink, so now you've had your day, Gigi. But these are the explanations people on this forum give. If you wish you had found drink link moderation when you were 18 instead of AA, that sounds to me like you are mourning the lost party times.

I know what you mean about posts showing up where you think they should. They get lost, but lest's not complain lest someone confuse us with Marietta. As if she was the only one complaining about the format.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

gigi says: "I wish the day would come when a current AA would just agree that some people leave the fellowship because AA sucks."

I wish the day would come when a current OPF would just agree that some people leave the fellowship because AA is okay.

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ...." Matthew 24:10

I left the AA so I wouldn't drink again. It was so self defeating, depressing, negative, a mind fuck, frustrating, exasperating, stupid, obnoxious & stressful that if I didn't leave I would have had to begin drinking again to cope with AA & it's members insanity & obnoxiousness. I left to stay sober, get my mental & emotional health back & up & running & to have real peace & quiet & a good & sane life.

patti

becket's picture

Uh huh. Good for you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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