Can God miracle you to drink normally?

NoAAUK's picture
Submitted by NoAAUK on Wed, 06/06/2012 - 10:28

AA Big Book page 58 Fourth Edition

AA claim that Alcohol is cunning baffling and powerful and that without help it is too much for us.

AA then claim that God has ALL power. Then the 12 steps are suggested as a program of Recovery.

But there is not actually ANYTHING in the 12 steps about STOPPING drinking.

A question I have asked AA old timers before and have bought up on the OP letters page before, but nobody seems to be able to answer:-

If God can miracle you into being able to STOP drinking (provided you do the 12 steps and go to stepper meetings for life), why can't One who has all power just as easily miracle you into being able to drink normally?

My argument is that a Being with ALL power should, in theory, be able to miracle a person into being able to drink moderately, just as easily as he can miracle people into stopping drinking.

Why is there not a Return to Moderate Drinking Anonymous (RMDA) ?

Doesn't God like drinking? Jesus not only drank, but he changed all that water into wine at the Wedding Feast, so Jesus at least wasn't against drinking.

Come on Steppers can God only STOP you drinking, but can't make you drink normally?

And if God can't miracle you into drinking normally, has he really got ALL power or just limited power?

I think this question needs serious debate if you are going to make grandiose claims that the 12 steps can STOP (and only stop) you drinking

Comments

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 10:59

I don't think He wants me to. Not willing to test it, either, as sobriety has been wonderful for me and has given me so much more than I ever wanted.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 11:36

If you had any real faith in God working miracles for you in stepism, you wouldn't need to Test anything.

Its not whether to drink or not that is the question, thats up to the individual. I personally don't feel living life without drinking situations is a full life and won't pretend I don't want to go to the pub on occasions, but that is not the issue.

The issue is grandiose claims of miracles by the AA faithful.

Do you claim that God miracled away your desire to drink, but can't miracle you to be able to drink normally?

And if so why can't God perform both miracles, if he is going to do special great things, for the special members of 12 step cults?

Steppers seem to have very grandiose ideas about their own personal relationship and importance to God and oneness to the cosmos and whatnot

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 15:21

"......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11", but when pleading to the real Christian God, who inspired both the Old and the New Testaments, just don't get uppity enough to beg for two miracles. Only one per customer, unless that God utterly despises you, and then you don't get any and you have to go to bed without your supper.

"Steppers seem to have very grandiose ideas about their own personal relationship and importance to God and oneness to the cosmos and whatnot" Would that include a man who signs all his posts with Matthew 24:11? That seems a little presumptuous to me.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:21

I'm just reciting what Matthew reported that Jesus said. I'm not claiming to be Matthew, that would make me as barmy as Bill Wison (the reincarntion of Jesus himself) and the rest of you steppers.

I'm NoAAUK not Matthew just to clear things up.....I don't claim I'm at one with the cosmos or whatnot either

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:30

Maybe you aren't one with the universe. It doesn't sound like it, NoA.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:56

I can never be at one with the universe while evil things like steppism destroy peoples minds.....that would be self centerness, the halmark of steppism

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:58

That's okay. You'll find a belief you can find oneness with...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 04:50

I have....the growing Anti AA movement

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

patti

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 20:34

I'm sorry I just don't get how hanging out in church basements & listening to the same old drivel over & over & the same old drunk tales over & over & being told you have character defects & listening or following seriously messed up "suggestions" can give anyone so much more than they ever wanted. I just can't get how anyone in AA has a wonderful life. It's ground hog day over & over, nothing changes, it's redundant & boring, the members are dumb & obnoxious & boring, I just don't get why anyone wants what AA has or wants to be there. It's such a sad, negative & weird little world, made me feel like such a loser to be there. One has to be brain washed to evaluate & embrace AA as a shiny, happy world. It's a waste of time & life & is detrimental to health & well being.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 21:32

You don't have to get it, patti. No one is trying to force you to get it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 04:17

why are you & Clara & Trish K here on this forum daily then?

patti

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 04:40

then why does AA troll prisons, courtrooms, rehabs, institutions & hospitals for members. then why do AAers step 12, any one they can bother? why does AA advertise daily on the radio, TV & the internet? why do AAers argue, become indignantly outraged & very angry when any one doesn't agree with their AA belief's & psycho babble? then why do AAers refuse to face the truth about Wilson & Dr. Bob? then why doesn't AA step itself, admit it's many character defects, be rigorously honest & make the amend of shutting itself down instead of existing & harming people, including children.

patti

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 04:55

Becket

So whats all the court coercion about in the US.......and Ian Duncan Smiths idea about forcing unemployed Brits into AA or they lose their benefit.

Sounds like quite a lot of people are trying to force an even greater number of people to 'get it'

whatever 'it' is

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 04:49

Clara

If God can work personal miracles for you and make you be able to drink normally, why would God not want you to drink? If he miracled you into a 'normal drinker' (like Jesus) then surely it wouldn't matter whether you drank or not? It would become irrelevant

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 13:03

Why would I want to drink normally? The desire to drink at all has been lifted. I used to think that life without drinking was no life until I found out otherwise. If people want to drink, just drink. Why justify it?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 13:38

You're not answering the question. It's not about you as an individual or what you want. The question is: If God can lift the compulsion to drink and get someone sober, cant he also lift the compulsion to drink excessively/alcoholically/destructively and allow someone to return to normal drinking?
Why is God so selective in his miracles?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 14:31

Thanks gigi that is the point I am trying to make, in a nutshell.

Except we know God is NOT selective in his miracles, he dosen't either enable you to stop or moderate, you have to do it.

The 12 steps and AA have no value whatsoever

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 15:35

"The 12 steps and AA have no value whatsoever" - TO YOU. They do have value to the people who believe in them and find life improvements through them.

I know you want that reality to go away. It just won't. Sorry.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:33

"The 12 steps and AA have no value whatsoever" - TO YOU. They do have value to the people who believe in them and find life improvements through them

Cult speak......life improvements from sitting in a room with a bunch of wackos talking about character defects and other garbage.....pull the other one its got bells on it.

What possible life improvements can you get from that nutjob program? LOL I do find you people funny at times

and AA didn't have much practical value for Professor Valiant either did it?

Oh! and it is going slowley away in Nottingham anyway last I heard......and I intend to help it GO AWAY any chance I get

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:31

I have had a number of life improvements due to AA, NoA. Just because you didn't doesn't make the program worthless.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:41

"I have had a number of life improvements due to AA, NoA. Just because you didn't doesn't make the program worthless."

What life improvements, just cult speak, the program is not only worthless its pathetic, if you people reaslied how batshit crazy you sound waffling the same old speechs over and over over again and then holding hands chanting....its farcical LOL

I don't know how you dare come on this forum with sane people on it and admit to being a member of that madhouse......if I was going to do that stuff, I keep it quiet and sneak in and out of meetings. I wouldn't dare admit to being a stepper, and certainly not on this forum where people know how insane you all are

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 17:23

Do you know how batshit crazy you appear here quoting the Bible to a largely atheistic and agnostic readership? Who's the idiot now?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 17:36

I for one happen to really like NoAAUK's signature.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 19:51

One vote counted. Do you believe in God? In Jesus Christ, causeandeffect?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 04:20

I also really like NoAAUK's signature too/two.

patti

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 17:45

If ever there was a pair of false prophets its got to be lying, thieving; acid popping sexual predator Bill Wilson and the child battering doctor. Its a very appropriate signature for this forum when you consider it in this light don't you think Becket?

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 00:03

Why can't you just answer the question?

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:56

Hey, don't get me mixed up with people who live in meetings. If I thought you were genuinely interested in any good things I took away from AA when I left over 20 years ago I would share that information with you. As it is, you're not entitled to know.

I really don't know who Professor Vaillant or Valiant is and I don't give a shit, nor is it of any interest to me whether you even keep breathing.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 17:14

I know there are NO good things in steppism. I didn't just go to a few meetings and didn't like it, I started AA in North Nottingahmshire, I did doorstep 12 step work alone, I was a real stepper the full monty, I say again, there is NOTHING good in steppism, it is a satanic cult and any promises come from satan not God

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 17:18

Pray to Matthew. He may have an in with someone who can relieve you of your shame at having been a stepper. Actually, maybe St. Jude might be more open to it.

If you knew there was nothing good about it, why were you doing it?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 17:52

If you knew there was nothing good about it, why were you doing it?

Because I fell for the jails institutions or death bit, why do you think?

But the longer you do the stepper thing, the more the death bit starts to become attractive. Thats a major problem of steppism

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 19:52

Good thing that's only an opinion.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 05:00

Becket

Suicide in AA is not a oppinion, its a fact, this website and other websites are full of people who know AA suicides.

Sexual Predation is also a FACT in AA

and so is a 95% failure rate

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 04:24

NoAAUK
I also do not think steppism has anything good or redeeming, it has no qualities @ all, is not beneficial to any one. It is a dangerous & unqualified psycho babble cult, that uses religion as a front, it's a sham, it was never about anything but a group to financially support Wilson & Dr. Bob, two complete & utter scumbags.

patti

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 05:02

patti, I don't need to add anything to that, sums AA up perfectly

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 15:26

If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and was the Universe before there was a Universe, it stands to reason he can do anything he wants.

Who says he is "selective in his miracles"? Maybe it was enough to be relieved of the compulsion to drink. Maybe that person has no desire to drink anymore, ever, and didn't have reason enough to get greedy and ask for "another miracle".

If someone quits drinking in AA, and you do not believe that was a miracle, then why are you asking about a further miracle to be granted the ability to drink normally? Those who believe are not going to change their minds because you are a skeptic or an atheist. And if you don't believe, then what are you trying to ferret out here?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:24

I am trying to ferret out here your pathetic stepper claims that those wacky steps can possibly work you idiot

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:28

But they can. Why be insulting, NoA, just because someone disagrees with you?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:58

Some of your fellow steppers are insulting

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 18:03

did you miss the day that becket admitted the 12 steps are not keeping him sober?

You are here all day, every day CLar, how could you have missed such a momentous occassion?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 18:32

I am not here all day. I may check in several times a day, but big deal?

I don't know if the steps got Beckett sober. Do you know her story? I don't. I personally found the steps a great way to start over.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

teatotaler

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 19:03

I bought on e-bay. Bill even mentioned to me that he thinks you should be at a meeting....right now! ROFLOL. BTW, Why DON'T you go to meetings? Do you go to enough? Why not every night?

"There's a new sheriff in town."

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 19:52

LOL! Who said that I don't go to meetings, Tea?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 20:30

Hey, teatotaler don't you have some fab new secret hangout you're supposed to be sharing your insights within?

By the way, it's "teetotaler", not "teatotaler". Kthxbai.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 19:53

You are a total ass, live_free_or_die. Repetition of a lie won't make it true, no matter how diligently you follow your own prescription.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 20:00

What a concept, you should inform Alcoholics Anonymous about that.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 20:31

I try to address liars one at a time, not as a group.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 05:10

Take a hell of a long time to address the liars in AA.

Take a hell of a long time to find a stepper who told the truth as well

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

patti

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 04:27

Yes, if AA only knew that repetition of a lie won't make it true, they would have to step themselves, be rigorously honest, make amends & close themselves down & dissolve.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 16:58

Orange don't dig all that name-callin', son.

Ferret away, my little friend. And keep spouting that Bible shit when you have no idea what the implications are.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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