I wonder what Bill W's LSD trips were like

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Submitted by cindee33 on Sat, 05/26/2012 - 12:59

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Just a thought came into my mind. I wonder if Bill W. had any bad LSD experiences. If he had really bad trips because of the stuff in his subconscious. I guess he must have had some good ones or else he wouldn't have kept doing it. I also wonder how Lois' trips were. That guy could talk her into anything. Unless she was just a willing participant or whatever. Maybe it enlightened him or something but I don't know his writing well enough other than the big book. Just a weird thought about what kind of trips he would have had.

patti

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 17:33

I'm figuring any trip for Lois was a good thing, it was an escape from Wilson, maybe she could really block out his psycho babble better when she was tripping. Can you imagine what it must have been like to listen to that asshole all those years?! Lois may have liked it when Wilson was stepping out with Helen, she got some peace & quiet!

patti

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becket

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 18:02

Relationships between married couples in the 1950s were practically an inside-out version of what they are today. It looks to me like you people are taking today's standards, today's expectations, today's hard-won equities and applying them where they don't belong. My guess is that Lois believed she loved Bill Wilson and that it was her "duty" to stand by him through all good and bad experiences. I wouldn't have stayed for six minutes, but women's roles were very, very different then, with few options open to them. She probably got tired of Bill's fluctuations, but she also probably felt bad about not having much choice in the matter, so she made the best of it. All this nonsense about Lois tripping with Helen Wynn and Bill Wilson is just bullshit. Speculation of that sort totally drags down a conversation to the lowest common denominator. Is it easier for you to conjure up such a scenario than it is to actually give some serious thought to what their relationship was like? Mud slinging is easier than thinking.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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Clara

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 18:56

Lois married for life. She wouldn't have divorce Bill and she never even considered the other marriage proposal she received. As she said, "It was always Bill."

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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JR Harris

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:02

If Lois Wilson had followed the advice of Al-Anon, she would have divorced Bill Wilson in a minute. the only reason she didn't was because she would have lost the Stepping Stones compound that the cult built for her to live in.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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causeandeffect

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 18:59

becket, just because you want something to be true doesn't make it sol

As to Bill’s extensive experimentation in the 1950’s and 1960’s with, and use of, LSD in company with Lois Wilson, Bill’s paramour Helen Wynn, Father Ed
Dowling, his secretary Nell Wing, Marty Mann, and others, see Francis Hartigan, Bill W: A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson(New York: Thomas Dunne Books, 2000), pp. 177-179.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ruBTU4aXuvoC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=bill+wil...

Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who accepted) were Nell Wing, Father Ed Dowling, (possibly) Sam Shoemaker and Lois Wilson. Marty M and Helen W (Bill's mistress) and other AA members participated in NY (under medical supervision by a psychiatrist from Roosevelt Hospital).

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1763

And bill doesn't get a pass for cheating on his wife. The 10 commandments existed long before the 1930's you know.

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Trisha K.

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:23

This is how the story becomes exaggerated. These experiments happened from the mid 50's and went on for a few years. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. LSD was not being used recreationally in a broad sense during the 50's.
Bill was being treated for depression. Several writers have come out with their interpretations many years later of what they thought Bill was doing.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

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Clara

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:38

I understand that 1959 was the last time per Pass It On. LSD was pulled from the Canadian market 1963. What was used in the later 60's was not made by companies but manufactured illegally.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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becket

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:35

I expressed an opinion based on a timeline. Maybe you're too young to remember what the 1950s were like for women. It does not hurt anyone's case to consider the mental and emotional state of Lois Wilson within the context of her times. It has nothing to do with what I "wish".

Your quote (which you failed to footnote or place within quotation marks) only states that Bill Wilson engaged in taking LSD with those named. It says nothing about them all dropping acid together.

No man gets a "pass" for cheating on his wife. However, I think you should remember that the Ten Commandments were the creation of man. If you believe tablets were personally handed by God to Moses on Mount Sinai, why would it be difficult for you to work the 12 steps with that God in mind? Consider the Ritual Decalogue, the biblical text in Exodus 34:28 which some scholars argue identifies a different list as the ten commandments, that of Exodus 34:11–27. This passage does not prohibit murder, adultery, theft, etc. Instead it addresses the proper worship of Yahweh.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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causeandeffect

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:16

“Maybe you're too young to remember what the 1950s were like for women.”

Adultery is adultery, and has been since The Old Testament. Do you think that it was somehow less hurtful to Lois, just because it was back in the 1950s? I don’t believe that for a minute. They didn’t have a typical 1950s relationship either, as she was working to support him, rather than the other way around.

“If you believe tablets were personally handed by God to Moses on Mount Sinai, why would it be difficult for you to work the 12 steps with that God in mind?”

Why? Why in the hell would I want to follow the dictates of a demonstrably amoral man with delusions of grandeur? I have no need to do so, and neither does anybody else. wilson was a liar, cheat and thief, even in his sobriety. Even after his so-called spiritual awakening. He was a fraud.

“Consider the Ritual Decalogue, the biblical text in Exodus 34:28 which some scholars argue identifies a different list as the ten commandments, that of Exodus 34:11–27. This passage does not prohibit murder, adultery, theft, etc.”

Adultery is still prohibited, and not only by Christianity, but other religions as well, regardless of what some scholars speculate on.

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Clara

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:23

I can't speak to Lois and Bill, but I do know others that have open marriages. I don't think Lois would have ever elft Bill. Totally, thoroughly besotted with him, and I would have killed him.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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becket

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 23:08

Was there no adultery before the Old Testament? And why this biblical measuring stick?

I don't believe Lois was less hurt by Bill's behaviors than any women today would be in facing a husband's infidelity. But sixty years ago women were not in much of an economic position to dump their philandering husbands and strike out on their own. That has nothing to do with the psychic pain of living with someone who is unfaithful, and don't put words in my mouth here.

I didn't suggest you follow Bill Wilson. I was wondering why you use God and the Commandments to beat someone up with and then - correct me if I'm wrong - have nothing particularly good to say about God in any other capacity. That seems exploitive.

Please note: adultery is NOT prohibited. Men and women commit adultery everywhere all over the world every hour of the day. It may be frowned upon, and it might make God AND Jesus really sad, but it is not prohibited. It is a matter of choice. Other religions recommend against it but they do not prohibit it. "Thou shalt not" is an instruction with an implied afterlife tax if not heeded. Jesus taught that even thinking of committing adultery carries the same penalty as actually committing the act of adultery. So let's see a show of hands: who among us gets to ride the express bus to heaven?

If you want to take "some scholars" to task, do your homework. Their theories are as legitimate as those of any other scholars. And could you please aim over the rail to spit? I hate getting that shit on my shoes.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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causeandeffect

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:24

"Your quote (which you failed to footnote or place within quotation marks) only states that Bill Wilson engaged in taking LSD with those named. It says nothing about them all dropping acid together."

It says nothing about them dropping acid separately. What evidence do you have to the contrary?

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becket

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 23:11

Do you contend that the three of them took LSD together? Are you implying that Bill and Lois Wilson took LSD25 with Helen Wynn? The quote which you brought to the table only refers to names of people who took acid. It says nothing about them having done so together. It appears you read that into the text, as you are wont to do. It is not incumbent upon me to offer proof that they did not trip together. You brought it up: you support it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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causeandeffect

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 17:59

I dunno Patti. I think Lois had to trip with both bill and helen at the same time. I would think that would be hell. And no, I can't imaging what it would have been like listening to someone who had a messianic complex for decades. His delusions of grandeur must have been insufferable. Poor woman.

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cindee33

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 21:10

If Lois tripped with the both of them I could see them making fun of her like she didn't get "it". Maybe Bill listened to Bing Crosby music or something like that while high. haha

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becket

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 23:16

What is this post about? Why such sophomoric speculation about these people? Are you reaching for a laugh?

He could have done worse than Crosby while under the influence. At least Crosby sang in tune and had great musicians.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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Trisha K.

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 18:21

Check your dates, his LSD treatments (as they were called, since this was the 50's not 10-20 years later) for depression. Lois tried it once and did not like it at all. Helen was not even in the picture at this time.
Please be careful when reading JR and Causeandeffects comments they are extremely misleading to the point of dishonest. There is no way Causy did not know Helen did not particate in the LSD treatments.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

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JR Harris

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 18:40

Francis Hartigan: "In the mid-1950s, when Bill was in his early sixties, he began an affair that was different than any he had before. The Woman's name was Helen Wynn, and she was in her early forties when Bill met her. Helen and Bill were together some fifteen years. They saw each other regularly in New York and later in Pleasantville, a town fifteen minutes south of Bedford Hills, where Helen bought a home."
Source: Francis Hartigan. Bill W.: A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson. 2000. pg. 190.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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Trisha K.

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 18:51

Francis Hardigan has been disputed before on the integrity of information. There is no mention of Helen being involved but much to say about Lois's involvement. Many people have written about Bill and it doesn't mean they are accurate or even true accounts.
JR, you don't even care if it is accurate or not, just that it was printed. Your philosophy is if it is printed then it works for me. Remember A Life Gone Awry, it was printed so it must be true.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

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JR Harris

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 18:56

I wasn't, but I do know that Francis Hartigan was Lois Wilson's secretary and was.

By the way "A Life Gone Awry" was not conference approved, it was written with the help of the survivors of Elan School in Poland Maine. Are you familiar with that particular teenage torture camp?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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Trisha K.

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:12

the possibility she was incorrect at times with her memory. Makes for a great book to spice things up wouldn't you say, JR.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

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Trisha K.

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:39

You make it sound like this is really important. Was this an AA conference approved book. How does that work and why would it make any difference if AA approved it or not. They are not receiving any proceeds from the sell of the book.
There is no evidence anywhere that Élan survivors helped write the memoir, A Life Gone Awry. You are being dishonest saying this JR. I say dishonest because I believe you know the author and his memoir well. The only person who knows about this memoir is the person (Albert Beauchane) who hired a ghost writer with the fake name of Wayne Kernochan. This is beginning to be common knowledge because no one has come forward to corroborate anything this author has written. He says he was in Élan but no one knows him at all.
This is my opinion from the research I have done.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

John-Barleycorn

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 21:07

What you got nothing danny ,you're busted , not set up like a bowling pin and knocked down ,just out right busted . So the book is true , and who the fuck is Albert what ever . danny the book written about you was written by a person by the name of Wayne Kernochan ,at least that what it says on the title of the book.

Remember you got banned from here under the name dannybII ,remember ,go back and read your words .too much you can't make this stuff up .

Next danny is gonna tell us that he was kidnapped and held against his will and was forced to work at the Elan School.

And danny bennison I know about the book ,memior ,story , accounting of your time at elan ,because I bought it off of Amazon.com And I read it on my kindle. anyone can buy this book danny bennison , anyone can read about you and the Elan School.

bennison prays at the alter of " hide my isp" aint that right there danny.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:51

I mean if you are going to call me Danny Bennison, you should either have inside information or have some credible evidence. Please don't tell us you are just going to mimic what others have been saying here.
Johnnie Boy calling me Danny does not make you a brilliant investigator nor does it really win you applause here. What it does do is put you in the circle along with all the other members. See Johnny they call me Danny because they get pissed off at what I am saying. They do not like hearing the truth.
I really don't care about Élan, Wayne or Albert. I investigated them, because I was being called Danny and the research was interesting for a minute. But the deeper I went, I realized there would be whackjobs like you John, lurking at every corner. So have at it and have some fun, why not, life is short.
"I'll be your huckleberry".....lol!!!

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

John-Barleycorn

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 21:42

Shit , they call you danny because you are danny. I know you are danny bennison because I am not an idiot . And danny you should care about the Elan School , you should care very much about the Elan School. Life for you danny is going to be very long , you know " License plates don't make themselves" as some one once posted here. lol.

And danny bennison thank you for giving me permission (not that I needed it ) to call you danny bennison . Funny danny bennison is a complete whackjob , and you don't like hearing the truth, do you there danny . You aint my huckleberry, you are your own dingleberry . PAL

They call you danny bennison because you are danny bennison , they laugh at the nonsense that you write ,I know I do . Ah yes danny it puts me in the circle with all the other members ,yes danny the circle of truth ,I know , I know it is something that you just would not and could not understand.

You were quite the sick assistant director weren't you danny.

John-Barleycorn

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:05

Wow the book A life gone Awry , I read it and thought it was just one mans accounting of his experience at the Elan School. JR I never heard that it was written with the help of survivors of the Elan School. It seemed to be written by one person, at least that is what I understand.

Funny thing is that the book gives a very sick accounting of one of the Assistant Directors ,a danny bennison. If I were danny bennison I would have sued for slander and libel , when this book first came out . The book has been out for almost a year and a half, from what I understand. It is still for sale . It was a very quick read.

I believe it is a true story . Of course danny bennison knows the Elan School. danny bennison worked at the Elan School from what I understand when he was an adult . And JR have you read this book , it portrays the Elan School as much worse than a teenage torture camp. I got my copy just the other day , unbelievable story . I can understand why children that were in there are called survivors. Seems like what these children survived is surreal.

I cringed for those children under danny bennison's care ,at that place during his time , for them it must have been a pure living hell. And JR if you read the book then you know that is being nice.

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Clara

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:20

No word on Helen, and Marty Mann's bio says that it is unknown if Marty participated.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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causeandeffect

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:32

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's what AA history says; bill used LSD with helen.

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Clara

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:39

It doesn't disappoint me. Why would you think so, Cause? I wouldn't care if she did.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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Trisha K.

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:50

I will take back what I said if a honest corroboration can be produced. I have already been involved in several conversations on this very subject on other blogs and web sites.
There is no concrete evidence that puts Helen in the group that met with the Doctors, Bill used for treatment using LSD.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

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JR Harris

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:34

Don't leave the computer screen and wait for the miracle using the keywords of "Bill Wilson", "Helen Wynn", "Marty Mann", "Spirituality", etc.....

I am sorry if i am asking you to think and it may cause a relapse due to it, I believe one of the AA gods can be prayed too to stop this. Just don't leave until the miracle happens.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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becket

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:37

JR Harris, there's civility and there's fringe civility. I thought I'd been reading that many posters want everyone to just discuss topics without sniping. Are you willing to try that?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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Clara

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:41

Cause seems to need a refresher in that, as well. I suppose Ironic could be schooled, too, since she seems to think that I should have a personal opinion on Living Sober and royalties when I don't. I don't understand making things person. I rather consider it to be derailing or a not so sly attempt to make it about me when it was about the work.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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JR Harris

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:48

This is not the correct place to do it. Go to a church basement, I have it on very good authority that miracles do happen in the ceremonies to the adulterous Bill Wilson that pay for the royalties to Bill Wilson, Lois Wilson, the Stepping Stones Foundations and Helen Wynn. Unfortunately the miracle didn't happen to the author of "Living Sober."

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Brett

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:50

has allready happened, she's been relived the obsession of bingeing on 6 paks & only thinks of crab soup occasionally.
6 beer bingeing alcoholic, never mind dry drunks, I think a new term needs to be coined to describe clara's "alcoholism" how would 'sober drunk' go ? or 'half shot piss poor driver drunk'
re; the crab soup; gourmet drunk.

Brett

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Clara

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:02

The obsession with me continues...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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JR Harris

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:08

If had stayed in church basements chanting Bill Wilson waiting for a miracle like the scripture tells you, you would not have put the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous under so much scrutiny. Remember "principles before personalities", please pick up a new white chip.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Brett

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:11

obsession with derision, besides your special, yer the only troll I take the piss out of, for the wonderfull way you work your program & the lying dodges & tricks you try.
Get a real job ya bludger.
6 beer binge, do you even know what drunk is?

Brett

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Clara

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:21

No, it is simple obsession, Brett. besides, my program and how I work it is really only important for me. I don't understand another having an opinion about it or making it such an issue. How is your program?

I am not trying to play into this because I think it is silly, but one thing in the sponsorhsip pamphlet that rings true is choosing people that are HAPPY in sobriety. Are you?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Brett

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:26

you don't have a program, your not alcoholic except by your own definition & you still drink by A.A standards.
no obsession either when I'm at a circus I like to laugh at the clowns.

Brett

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Clara

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:39

None of that is true, Brett. You are very humorous. Derailing, but humorous. But you are right one one very important point. MY definition of an alcoholic is all that matters. And I don't drink by anyone's standards, surely not yours.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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live_free_or_die

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 18:26

Bill W would probably not have a bad trip on LSD because he had no conscious, no morals, nothing.

Bill W's sobriety date is not celebrated (the jesus reincarnate) because he was not sober. Taking acid is not being straight.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

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cindee33

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 21:18

Maybe his birth date is mixed up just like J.C.'s real birthday is supposed to be in July or something and they borrowed the myth using Mithra's birthday instead, or maybe it was Apollo's. One of those guys is December 25th so they applied it to J.C. also. Bill's A.A. birthday, according to some, is the gift that keeps on giving.
That one is God (Bill) may you find him now. ;*)

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live_free_or_die

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 21:21

Excellent post. Hilarious, all of it.

Especially the "gift that keeps on giving part". jesus h christ, how funny.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

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becket

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 19:38

Why would you think that someone with a conscience and morals would suffer bad acid trips? What's that all about?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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cindee33

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 18:43

Yeah, Lois man, she supported him, put up with his affairs, must have felt like a fool after being with him and then when he gets a little famous he says she has always been like a mother to him, his verbal abuse, demeaning her, etc., went to alanon because "father" was a bit balmy, did the Ouija board stuff and god knows what else. I hope when she did get high she was able to tune him out, yuck tripping with him would be a downer. Sounds like she did everything to compensate because she couldn't have children. Not that Bill would have been a good father, he was too much of a baby himself. I am glad she outlived him, maybe she had some years of happiness and financial security. I hope she did. I hope she wasn't so used to him that she was broken hearted or something. No I will pretend for her that she had a good life after he died and was able to find some peace and deep loving friendships. And a few good acid trips also. 8-)

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live_free_or_die

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 18:54

Lois did indeed live a life free of financial difficulties, at least. I have documented here months ago that Lois W, who died in 1988, was a multmillionairess when she passed. Her estate was worth around $3,400,000.

In fact, due to the royalties passed ( 90% of em ) on to Lois from Bill W's writings, she was being paid somewhere around $600,000 to $700,000 a year in royalty payments when she passed. Comfortable indeed.

I also know that she traveled internationally after the jesus reincarnate went up in the sky.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

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cindee33

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 20:50

Well good to know she was able to travel. I wonder if she ever felt guilty having all the money knowing Bill ripped it off from A.A. royalties, if that is how she got it. Thanks for the information. Free at last, free at last.

flannigan

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 11:05

Where did you get info that Bill Wilson took LSD with his wife Lois and his mistress Helen at the same time? I have never heard that before. Just wondering.

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JR Harris

Sun, 05/27/2012 - 14:00

Courtesy of a link provided by ben.... lol

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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