And you're ok without AA?!

Submitted by gigi on Tue, 05/22/2012 - 17:53

Yesterday, I got a voicemail from a woman I met in AA 2 years ago. She and I started going to meetings at about the same time and saw eachother a couple times a week in the beginning. I never became friends with her, but was aware that she had her share of ups and downs and relapses for a while. I was surprised she called, but it turns out she was calling for a favor related to her new job-not AA related. Anyway, we chatted for a minute and she noted that she hadn't seen me in a long time. "Are you going to different meetings?" I told her I wasn't doing AA anymore. The first question, of course, was "Are you drinking?" No, I told her, I'm not. Then, "You're ok without AA?! You can do it without meetings?!" I just left it as, yeah, I'm better off without AA. I'm good. It struck me that a lot of people really don't believe that they-or anyone-can remain sober without AA. Of course, I knew this. It's just been a while since I had a real, live person react with such disbelief to this simple truth: you can be ok without AA. It's astounding, really, that the idea that one must stay very close to AA to have any hope of staying off the sauce. I know where it comes from; I know the people who taught her this. They told me the same thing. It's unfortunate that the notion of not drinking means going to AA meetings is the only message that a lot of folks pass on. Meeting makers make it, AA is my medicine, I need to be here... I hope it works for her and she continues to benefit as much as she can. I hope, also, that she takes the message that you don't need AA to be ok to heart.

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massive's picture

massive

Tue, 05/22/2012 - 19:24

gigi-

they are full of lots of bad and strange ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv-vc4OljFY&feature=fvwrel

Massive

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Tue, 05/22/2012 - 20:27

When I read your writing, I always hope that mine will one day drip with the same eloquence.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 11:23

Of course people can be okay without AA, especially if they'be been able to move past the drink and change the mindset. I think that is possible for me. I just wish it weren't necessary due to lacik of acceptable meetings.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Free

Tue, 05/22/2012 - 21:11

I also hope it keeps on working for the people that are in there. When I said my goodbyes to my group a couple of nights ago, I didn't feel the need to attack aa - some truly believe they will die without it. I did ask one old bloke I'm particularly fond of, if he truly needed all the meetings he attends. He responded that it's his primary social outlet; that he's shy; not good at making friends etc. Another member, who spends a lot of time talking in hospitals and prisons also wished me well. Aa gives him status and a reason for living - he truly does believe he is doing god's work. He didn't say it, but I know from his shares that he believes I will fail. He couldn't help but refer to my 'pride' regarding my position on powerlessness and the god concept. Yep, I'm obviously doing way too much thinking! My ex-sponsor asked the very appropriate question of what I was going to replace aa with. I responded mindfulness, meditation and yoga. If I hadn't discovered these methods of feeling calm, I don't believe I would be able to make the transition.

msafrany

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 11:27

"My ex-sponsor asked the very appropriate question of what I was going to replace aa with".

They really do not have a clue, do they?

"I responded mindfulness, meditation and yoga".

Sounds boring as fuck, but good luck, if that is what you are into.

"He didn't say it, but I know from his shares that he believes I will fail".

Without a doubt, the true believers are completely convinced that they have something special going for them in that God-forsaken 12 step program. Hard to come to grips with the fact that they have all been duped by a group of 1930's religious fanatics.
Every one of them.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 11:29

"Hard to come to grips with the fact that they have all been duped by a group of 1930's religious fanatics.
Every one of them."

Including you, for . . . how many decades?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

msafrany

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 12:02

Damn you're good. I think you should hang out here all day to keep em straight. You will be the guardian of the Orange Forum. FOREVER. Damn she's good.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:10

OK. Good idea.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 06:57

that has been able to remain "off the sauce" without AA. judge becker has admitted to no AA meetings in over 20+ years, if he can be believed.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Tue, 05/22/2012 - 22:04

I think that for the AA that is honestly happy and trying to work the program, remaining sober, the truth could possibly shock and initially hurt them. That isn't to say that they should stay sheltered or that people should keep it from them. I'd just be leery of my approach because I remember what it was like for me. I was already doubtful and uncomfortable, feeling as if it didn't help me an ounce - and I was furious at the start. . At the same time, I feel a responsibility to warn others. Society deserves and needs to know the truth. People don't need to sell their souls and be a completely different person to heal.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 11:01

The AA who is honestly happy and trying to work the program, remaining sober has his own truth: that that particular day is a good day and that he is making some kind of progress. Your need to "warn others" does not supersede the AA member's need to follow his conscience and make his own choices. If society deserves to "know the truth" (read: your truth) then address society as a unit. To track down individuals who are pleased with the decisions they're making and contaminate their freedom with your own experiences is tantamount to "prospect hunting". Your cause should never be presented in that way.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 12:06

And they get so angry when their truth is not your experience...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 16:50

I was actually trying to an express a variation of what you said.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:10

We tried to demonstrate this to her when she wanted to go to the halfway house or whatever it was. People might be doing just fine there.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 05/22/2012 - 23:51

95% of the people are OK without AA, if you believe what is said. So what's the point of warning them? And do you really care about the other 5%?

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 03:10

Of course Alkie. I care about anyone in XA that is there because they have to be and think it's their only hope. It's no fun feeling trapped and as much as it can make a person angry upon finding out they joined a religion instead of support group, it can be hard to get away. The transition is often difficult.

Supposing AA were exposed for the lying and deceiving, dangerous religious cult that it is and it completely fell apart, I certainly hope that there would be some kind of programs for the people that would be stuck with nothing. Hypothetically of course, I really don't think that will happen. But I can hope.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 05:51

I'm pathetic and lost. No one cares.

patti

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 07:11

DD,
hope you feel better.

patti

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 09:20

Dan :( Please don't say that. Or are you kidding and mocking AA? That's how the program wants people to feel so that they will depend on the fellowship. It's a trap, they instill the bombardment of emotions into onto every addict and then offer the keys to happiness. Scoundrels.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 09:36

Thanks patti.
avogadno, yes I do feel that way. It comes and goes. My self esteem has been low since rehab, but "they" tell me I can't put the blame on AA for that. I feel better when I make a list of the good things like a stable home, partner...

My significant other is jealous and possessive so that, in a way helped me keep a distance from the AA control freaks. Also, a jealous partner won't allow me to get a sponsor. That is a good thing.
Thanks for responding to my rant patti and avogadno.

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 09:43

My self esteem hit rock bottom for the first few months post rehab. I didn't think it would get better, but I'm finally feeling like my old self because I can finally think for myself and I'm no longer attending AA. I was having nightmares, flashbacks, my hair fell out, my eating disorder flared back up, suicidal thoughts, etc. It was one of the worst things I've ever been through. I think it was a mix of having to pretend that the program was really working when I knew damn well it wasn't, being forced to attend AA, not being able to express how I was really feeling, and abusive nurses to list a few things.

It really seems awful right now, but in time it WILL get better. It took a few months for me. I wish I had have went to see a therapist or someone to help deprogram me or something during those few months, it would have helped. Traumatic is exactly how the whole ordeal feels.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 10:25

Byegood, I went through the same thing. They really know how to make you feel worthless. Even when it started to get better, I would wake up from dreams about those abusive damned nurses! (Though that did finally go away.)

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 10:32

The nurses were AWFUL. I had one that was hell bent on going out of her way to be a bitch to me, and she wasn't even one of my nurses. Another one SCREAMED at me when they changed my meds without telling me and I was looking at them because I didn't know WTF they were. They pulled that kinda crap at the place I was at (switching meds without telling us) and it made me SO MAD. I dunno why they think "beating down the ego" is good for someone.

Why not focus on the positive aspects and build on that instead of dwelling on the negatives? All I got out of treatment was that I was a terrible person and needed to cut out everyone from my life and go to AA. I read back old journal entries from when I was in treatment and post-treatment and wow was I ever mentally unstable and really hating myself. I lied SO bad on the survey I filled out when I was discharged "on a scale of 1-10 do I feel better about myself" I rated an 8, when I really wanted to give it a 0, but you NEVER question the program. NEVER especially when I wanted OUT

patti

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 10:15

DD,
expressing how you feel with out AA restraints is healthy & also you have the right to think, feel & express what you are feeling, that's not ranting. What Avo said is the truth, that is exactly what AA does & it is underhanded & unethical to say the least. AA has their own language, words & each one has a mission, "rant" from AA is belittling & intended to control what people say, do or feel, just another craziness from the mad rooms AA is depressing & negative & does cause low self esteem. It's up to you how you feel & what may be causing your low self esteem, please don't let anyone else tell you how to feel, what to blame, trust your self DD, you are on your side. hope you feel better.

patti

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 10:23

Dan, I'm so sorry you're suffering like that. It sounds like you feel a bit trapped, eh?

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

patti

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 10:25

DD,
my self esteem was really low, because so many people were treating me badly & I was beat up & felt worthless. lots of days it seemed like no one, no one even treated me like I was a person. the best thing I ever did was leave, I went through a lot of stuff, anger, feeling battered, then I got quiet, no one telling me what to do, think or feel. went to therapy & one of the first things my therapist said was "i'm not going to tell you how you feel about anything is wrong", what a relief. no more "you should do, think or feel this, that, the other thing, peace & quiet. Due to the quiet I got better, I felt better, my rawness & pain from life & AA slowly started to heal. With it my esteem returned, I felt better. there is a lot to be said for quiet, you begin to trust your self & become your own person & it's a real good thing. I do think you will feel better, it's likely to happen.

patti

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 11:19

Dan, have you visited the other place that is "safe" to chat? PM if you want the link. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that you open up all your feelings for exposure. Patti mentioned that it is healthy to get the AA frustrations out. A more secure environment where you aren't opening up yourself to AA criticism could be value. I occasionally "snap" and say more personal things about my experience here because I get angry. I haven't been bombarded for it thankfully. But I'm not too comfortable saying all of it just because there are some cruel people out there. It sounds like your partner is aware of how intrusive the AA can be. It's a shame that some will take advantage of that. Pathetic, really.
Remember the decollette yapping, that should make you laugh a bit :-)

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 12:25

Hahahaha! Jamie and her decollette is funny! I think it was also funny when you said that it was officially the strangest higher power you have heard of.
Jamie is like Karin from the show Will and Grace only she has been "stripped of all drugs and alcohol".
She likes the word strip.

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 02:34

avogadno and others
(over there)

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 22:13

This is interesting. When my husband was protective of me, the Antis made it out as if he was some sort of contolling chauvenist and I was some simpering wife.

Why won't your partner "allow" you to get a sponsor? I know plenty of non-gay men that sponsor gay men, so your partner wouldn't have to feel insecure.

Gratitude lists are a great tool AA gave me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 08:46

1.I never wanted a spnonor anyway. They can be bad news.
2.My partner has been with me before during and after AA.
3.When Clara put the word- allow- in quotes, it makes me feel defensive.

JR Harris, would you comment on the first part of Clara's comment above?

(I don't feel mentally competent)
I think the problem with Clara's partner is that she was 13th stepped?

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 09:02

I'll answer this for you since I am JR's favorite subject to rewrite posts and it is responsible for a great deal of diss-information. He wouldn't be able to refrain from responding about me even though he rarely knows enough to comment.

I was not 13 stepped at all. My sponsor and his wife had been family friends for over 2 decades.

Don't feel defensive as that isn't how I intend it. I was pointing out a double standard.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 05/26/2012 - 09:09

Interesting, did your Sponsor who had known you for "2 decades" prospect hunt you for Alcoholics Anonymous because of your 6 pack binges?

I won't bother to point out the inconsistencies of your age, minus 20 years and your sponsors estimated marriage time and how they align with the time line you have given us so far. I must admit, you are getting much better at not pushing the believability envelope. Please don't ever testify at a court trial, they will tear you to shreds if you try to "fake it, until you make it."

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

gigi

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 13:18

I'm pathetic and lost as well. On any given day I believe that "no one cares." It's a shitty way to feel, but I've gotten rather used to it. I've also become used to that feeling suddenly going away. I'm cool and in control. Everyone loves me and wants to be my pal! I live on that up and down, high and low plane of existence. It's certainly not ideal; but it's who I am and how the cells in my body are composed, I think. I'm learning to embrace my imbalance and run with it. It's much easier to do that than try to pray it away or hope that another set of steps or another amends will set me free.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:06

gigi, I'm sorry you're feeling that way too. I wish there was something I could do...

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

gigi

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:34

Thanks C&E. I'm fine, really. I was serious when I said that I'm learning to embrace my ups and downs, my mood swings. I spent too much time fighting against my feelings, living in fear, and stuffing my anger. Now, I consciously attempt to acknowledge whatever is going on in my mind and body and go with it. If I'm feeling pathetic and lost, that's fine because I can address it, talk to myself about it and eventually turn it around. I am what I am...totally human, somewhat flawed, and remarkably resilient. Not unlike anyone else really. Pretending to have my shit together all the time is infinitely more tiring than admitting that I often don't have the first clue about much of anything.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 02:27

I like to read all of your comments gigi, thanks for being on this site. I have the mood swings too. Seems like today might be one of the manic ones. (in a good decollette way avogadno).

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 18:56

Dan, you may feel lost right now, but you're certainly not pathetic. And I care.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 02:29

You are right causeandeffect, those feelings do come and go. Thank you so much for the comment, I enjoy all of the nice people on this site.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 05:52

avogadno says: "... I certainly hope that there would be some kind of programs for the people that would be stuck with nothing." And that is the reason I signed-up on OPF. What do people do when they leave AA? Been hard to find that elusive "grain of salt" lost in the midst of the goofy blogs and forums. Or is it lost shaker of salt as Jimmy put it?

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 05/25/2012 - 07:00

What do you do, becker, after leaving AA?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

patti

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 03:34

Even the AA that is happy & working the program is dangerous. The psycho babble of AA & passing it on to others is dangerous. The mind games, the contradictions, the circular speaking, the double standards are all unhealthy & unhealthy is never good for anyone, but especially precarious for a battered addict. It's just never a good thing for unqualified people to be doing of all things unqualified psychiatry. I wouldn't let an a roofer work on my electricity in my house, I wouldn't let an AA member work on my mental health. No one should & that they are doing this to people is unethical, one & the same with Wilson, indecent, uneducated, unqualified & insane. Wilson, who was certifiably insane, creates a psychiatric evaluation & program for people, he couldn't be more unqualified & it is administered by brain washed members who do not even have the ability to think for self or as an adult & be their own person. Unfortunately those in AA have lost the ability to comprehend that one can heal thyself & can stand on their own. What's crazier & more contradictory than co-dependents anonymous, an AA spin off, when AA itself is all about co-dependency. Co-dependency is an AA word, diagnosis & another unqualified diagnosed "sickness", it's just all so crazy & unhealthy & a blight.

patti

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 05:34

Your entire comment almost perfectly sums up how I feel, spot on. It took me a little while before I could begin to think for myself and stop believing the crap I was being told.

"I wouldn't let an AA member work on my mental health"

I wrote before about a man I met outside of AA, but who was a member of AA (which I didn't know at the time), and he was very mentally disturbed obviously I later realized, and the LAST person qualified to work on anyone's mental health. He kept speaking in their thought stopping slogans and jargon, and kept trying to push AA on me even though I told him how much AA bothered me and disturbed me and that I was an Atheist which is one of the biggest reasons I couldn't "get the program".

He kept trying to give me the 24 hr chips, and at one point pulled out this cross with the serenity prayer and two praying hands on it...Not only did I feel like my beliefs were being violated, I was HORRIFIED that someone would do that after I mentioned I am an Atheist. I do not like religious imagery, it gives me the willies.

Someone should stop at "I had a traumatic experience with treatment and AA and that's why I stopped going" instead of pushing it on them. I'm related to Jehovah's Witnesses, and few people would deny they are a cult, and the similarities between AA and JW's are astounding.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 05:42

patti says: "Unfortunately those in AA have lost the ability to comprehend that one can heal thyself & can stand on their own." Fortunately that opinion is flat-out wrong. It is self-help pure and simple. People do what they need to do.

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 06:01

It's because anyone who can get sober without AA was never a "true alcoholic" to begin with...apparently, according to AA.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 06:12

Okay, fine. So what about those who cannot get sober on their own?

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 06:31

There should be other options just as available as AA , having a rough time myself doing it on my own, there are many who can do it on their own, but many still need support and AA just doesn't work for them. If AA works for someone great, but I REFUSE to walk through those doors of AA ever again, and SMART recovery is no where near where I live.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 07:03

Bye, that is the problem. You can start a SMART group. The information is easily downloaded.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 09:18

So it's all available ONLINE...not where I can go and sit face to face and be with real live people who are dealing with similar situations. The closest SMART meeting is 8 hrs away, and even though "Online and downloadable material" seems like the next best thing...it's not the same as having one on one contact with peers, you should know that. And if you mean starting up my own group, easier said than done. I'd prefer a group that was already well established or even had 5-10 members. I dunno, I suppose it's worth looking into, I actually had no idea you could start your own SR group.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 09:27

I DO know that. But that is what they say. They make a big deal about online meetings on OPF despite AA having online meetings since 1986. For me, I prefer f2f. It was important in early sobriety to get up, get ready, look nice, go to the meeting, go to lunch afterwards... Keep in a schedule, a changed routine...

I would like to start a group here, but there is also a culture in El Paso. I prefer established with members already. My issues are with AA, but group culture. But I need the alcoholics helping each other...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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