Are You Safe in an Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting?

Submitted by AntiDenial on Sat, 05/19/2012 - 17:15

The safety problems in AA and NA are starting to be getting more attention!

Are You Safe in an Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting?

Written by Laura Tompkins May 17th 2012

How many steps are there? Twelve, right? Wrong. There are Thirteen. "Thirteenth-stepping" is a euphemistic term used among members of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) to refer to people (particularly men) who target new, more vulnerable members (typically women) for dates or sex.

Previous research suggests that women frequently experience sexual harassment in 12 step meetings.

Just the fact the term "thirteenth-stepping" exists serves as a warning.

Since thousands of convicted felons are mandated to AA by the US courts, this warning must be heeded.

Entire article-

http://pacificpalisades.patch.com/blog_posts/are-you-safe-in-an-alcoholi...

Comments

btnben's picture

btnben

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:54

Bet that one stuck in your throat. Let's face facts - you were caught out lying Marietta and had no place to go. This is only the start. You are going to make more and more mistakes, the more lies you tell. This is going to be fun...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:56

No, nothing stuck in my throat or anywhere else. I was not lying or even fibbing; I miscalculated. It happens.

Your life must be pretty empty if the most fun you have is waiting for someone to step into one of your snares. Pitiful.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 19:01

Like most liars, you get caught out eventually - the dumber the quicker. Sadly, it didn't take long in your case...lol

Lügen haben kurze Beine - lol

Life's not empty at all. Lovely weather today. Been in the garden and planted all of the peas and french beans. I'll be eating my own strawberries next weekend.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 20:01

Then why doesn't your tag line say, "God damn it, get me a french bean"? Because you are sure as shit heading for a premature death bed if you continue with your bitter diatribes.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 19:08

My bitter diatribes? Only to you Marietta, whereas you wish retarded babies and loss of jobs on all and sundry. You sit there marinating in your own venom just waiting to spew forth.

'"God damn it, get me a french bean"? Because you are sure a shit heading for a premature death bed if you continue with your bitter diatribes.' - simply doesn't make sense - meds time Marietta...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 19:59

Yes, btnben, your bitter diatribes. The diatribes likely drive up your blood pressure. You're no spring chicken. A stroke could be in your future if you don't calm down and learn to communicate without coloring every word with abject hatred. I have wished no retarded babies on anyone, no loss of jobs on anyone. I address the topics of the day, just like anyone. Got a problem with that other than the fact that I disagree with you 100% on everything? Am I not entitled to my opinion?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:03

"I think you're even more insulting on a regular basis that I've been." - mad as a box of frogs...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:17

I admit that I do deliberately set out to insult some posters when I so vehemently disagree with their viewpoints that it takes such steps to try to drive home an equal-but-opposite viewpoint. However, I stand by every word, that you are more consistently and gleefully insulting and hateful in print that I will ever be. The interesting thing about it is, you will never admit it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:24

What do you mean I will never admit it? I have called you all the bitches under the sun openly on this forum for all to see. Do I have to follow each post with a rider admitting that I typed the last post? You're fucking insane woman - there you go, another one. I admit to that too if it makes you feel better.

Why would I never admit to something that everyone can see? And you find THAT interesting? Get a frigging life...lol. Stop sitting on the sidelines critisising. Join in, it's much more fun...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:31

Honestly, btnben, I think you are damaged.

You cannot couch an admission of this sort within a "if that makes you happy" context. It's disingenuous.

You tell me to join in and criticize, but you want to tell me what to criticize and how to go about it, as if there's some secret manual to this anti-AA thing. No. I disagree with virtually every single post you put out there, and I am disgusted at the words and ideas you use to maintain a presence here. You're just fuckin' offensive, dude, and I know that's your MO but it's really tiresome, the lolling and the poking people and ideas just because you can and not because you have an interesting counter idea.

Why don't YOU try something different and come out from behind that lead shield?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:38

I never, ever thought that I would have to admit to something if it was there in black and white with my name next to it? WTF are you on about?

I have never attacked you under your new name without you starting the abuse - so fuck you!!!!!

I'll say this clearly so there is no dispute. I think you are an evil bitch. A useless piece of humanity. I look forward to the day that you are kicked off here for good, never to return. What you gonna do - wish me a retarded child or threaten my job?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:57

I'm sorry you turned out this way.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:53

As usual becket accurately written.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:33

Calling someone names and reveling in the supposed cleverness of it, and admitting you are sometimes over the top and offensive are two completely different animals. It does not surprise me that you cannot see this.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

gigi

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:58

I did one and I'm not a fucking moron. Anymore.

**Sheesh. This was supposed to post in respone to one of Btbens queries. IDK where the post went...**

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

btnben's picture

btnben

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 19:03

I should imagine we all did some pretty moronic stuff. I look on it as a sign of getting well that I can look back and see just how moronic it was...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 20:03

Did you take a complete inventory, including a sexual inventory, btn"frenchie"ben? If it was moronic then it didn't help, correct? That would mean you cannot look at that as a component of your so-called "getting well", could you? Or did you not have a sponsor and you chose not to take the inventory? Or did you lie on your inventory?

Fascinating - do tell!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:23

Simply because we were told that we couldn't trust ourselves and told that to leave AA was to die. I really wish I had trusted my gut, as well as everything I had ever learned in my life about what was healthy and not healthy. What I was seeing in AA wasn't healthy at all.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:46

Well c&e, as you know it certainly doesn't help that we are initially pulled away from the outside world and our family members. If we do inquire out of the group, their lack of not understanding has already been explained. They can't understand because we have been informed that we're different and have the alcoholic mind. It's overly stressed that only one alcoholic can help another. Relating to each other and the addiction process is one thing, that we have a completely different, almost inhuman mind is another and all part of the big lie.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

patti

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 15:01

clara,
if you want to find out if AA has insurance, call AA or write them. You totally understand that we are discussing any & all churches liability insurance.

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 15:04

Yes, I do understand that. I also just posted that I know a woman that chairs meetings in two churches. While they have liability insurance as a business, the groups are not required to have their own.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 15:16

Sorry, I did not see these posts pertaining to AA groups themselves being insured. I was discussing the third parties insurance, the churches. Got frustrated, was wrong & deleted post.

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 15:17

No, I really don't. It was specifically suggested that there were different levels of insurance due to the criminal element to AA.

We all know that churches have liability insurance because they are businesses, but it isn't because they have AA meetings in their basement or that they need different insurance if they do...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 15:20

That's all right. The forum doesn't make it easy at times to keep a thread together.

Thank you.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:59

Patti- AA groups do need thier own insurance to rent from certain churches and places. Churches do not want to pay for extra liability insurance to have AA meetings in their church. Some groups cannot afford it so they move on to another church that may not require it.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:20

Could you name some of these certain churches? I'd like to ask them their reasoning because, again, I have talked to people in three areas of the States and no one can confirm what you've said. I'll call intergroup in Daytona and ask them if this is yet another yarn. Anyone care to place a wager?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 22:01

There reasoning? Just how stupid are you? Do you know what liability insurance is FOR? Churches or other facilities that rent do not cover everyone under the sun. The churches do not want to be sued if they are not covered. NA having their very own policy protects NA and it protects the church. For those churches that do not require AA to have a policy, and for those NA and AA groups that are lacking are leaving themselves wide open to lawsuits with no coverage. Then people can go after AA members personally.
NA strongly encourages local areas to have policies to protect themselves from a lawsuit that could hurt them personally. In fact it sounds like your family is quite exposed considering you say your group is not covered. I would look out for that real estaate of yours. If you or your husband gets sued during the acts of AA events, you are wide open. That is the facts. NA knows, because they have been sued on different levels.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 15:13

The AA GSB does have liability insurance in which individual groups are not covered. And guess who pays for their insurance??? All those around the the world basket contributions. AA members.

And if a group wants to get their own liability insurance they have to pass a different basket specifically for that purpose. The GSB is greedy and MUST get their share first. They insist that groups contribute. They also get paid a 6 figure yearly salary and have medical Ins. and retirement. All on the membership dime.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 15:46

AVO- you are right. AA groups or areas need there own insurance to provide Churches and other places they rent from. There is special insurance policies that cover AA meetings. Insurance companies also want to know from churches who they are renting to and if they have their own liability policy. If not Church rates can go up to cover more liability for 12 step meetings. This is why some churches REQUIRE AA groups to show their OWN policy and add them as an additional insured. AAWS and NAWS both discuss the need for groups to cover their own asses, because individuals that serve in any leadership capacity such as a sponsor can be sued as an individual. AA World Services does not like getting dragged into lawsuits on the lower end.

It is becoming more of a demand that AA/NA groups get their own insurance policies.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:22

This isn't true. I spoke to an insurance agent that is also a member and he disagree with you, Anti. Believe me, he'd be all over it if it could be true. Many meetings in MB are held in churches.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 21:47

Be all over what? You are sounding nuttier as the night goes on. Talking to Insurance agents on a Sunday night? Talk about denial, geez. It is not like this is some big secret I just came across. It has been going on for years. It is a price for doing business.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:35

Anti, you are not telling the truth. The groups wouldn't have their OWN policy; there would a rider on the church's policy. But what I am asking for are real examples of churches even asking for this. I know of no one that has ever actually seen this is place. It's a reasonable thing to ask of you.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 21:41

Stop your lying. There are plenty of Insurance agents that know nothing about these special risk policies. They are handled by only certain Insurance agencies. Why is it so hard to realize the truth?
Groups would work with their Intergoup or districts and PAY NA funds to protect themselves in case NA gets sued by their own negligience. It would not be a rider on a churches policy, unless the church paid for it themselves. Some actually do. Many do not and request that the groups show their own policy under the name of the AA or NA area etc. Then they ask NA or AA to list the church as an additional insured on the AA policy. Get a grip and get educated, instead of making up fantasies about AA never having insurance policies for rentals.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 21:51

Again, I am not going to be apart of giving you a laundry list of churches across this country that request insurance policies, so you can harass the poor secretaries. Maybe if you were not so busy on an anti- AA website and spent more time on a pro AA website you might know more about the business matters of AA. Hell I know more than a 5 year veteran of AA! Damn I am a quick study.

www.nadaytona.org exposes the crimes of AA and NA members and dangers to minors.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 22:05

My understanding is that most AA groups are not covered under the Church's policy. This would fall under the 3rd party policies of which most Church's don't have and can’t afford. Some of the bigger AA meetings do have insurance but that is rare because they need to collect for it separately. Most of the time IF a Church asks prospective meetings if they have any insurance the answer is no and the AA then offers a waiver that claims that if anyone in the AA is hurt, they won't sue (I don’t see how this is legal because all of the AA’s themselves aren’t there to sign over their rights). This has nothing to do with if an AA commits a criminal act on the Church's property. The Church is then shit out of luck. They just don’t understand the loophole.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

disclosure

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 16:37

Why the heck are people talking about the aa steps on a anti aa forum? Take a drink and get over it.

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 16:40

HA! HA! Just pointing out the harmful aspects of them, for those that want to point to page this and that page to refute the damaging aspects of AA. Cheers to you!

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:02

Got thirteen stepped a couple of times in the short period of time I attended 12 step meetings. And one of the biggest creeps I've ever met was a member of AA. Long story short he came into my work and asked me out (didn't know at the time he was a member of AA), I agreed...it escalated from us going out to dinner to him planning our kids, vacations and future together, trying to get me to go to a hotel with him, wanting to spend every day with him, etc.

After I blocked him from contacting me he started showing up at my work again even though he lives an hr away..I had to threaten to report him to the police if he didn't leave me alone. He TERRIFIED me. Oh and not to mention within the first 15 mins of our date he told me all about his alcoholism...I wouldn't tell a first date about my addiction issues.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:34

I had a few guys try unsuccessfully to 13 me. One was extremely creepy and he started stalking me as well. I was only being polite and friendly to him, but he had other ideas. He flattened one of my tires, but I had no way to prove it other than he had excused himself from the meeting and was waiting out the door when I left. But I'm sure nobody else would have done it. Nobody had warned me to not talk to him, either. When I quit going to the meeting he religiously went to, to avoid him, he started going to other meetings looking for me. Later I found out he tried it with every newcomer and generally creeped them out too. He's also showed up at my job frequently.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:53

C&E- it is good to post these stories like yours. It makes the reality of safety issues that Laura Tompkins discusses in her article more real. I had my share of flat tires too around AA and NA meetings. What that guy did to you was classic stalking. Scary stuff. Real scary.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:03

I've also had a few men unsuccessfully try to 13 step me, and I had an errily similar experience I posted about below. I didn't meet him at AA but he was a member of AA and I'm almost fully convinced he saw me at a meeting and somehow found out where I worked (that's where he asked me out and I STUPIDLY agreed). He never got to the point where he flatened my tire (but I thought he would), but he did keep showing up to my work after I blocked him from contacting me, calling and hanging up from a blocked number, just really weird stuff. I had to threaten him with police intervention if he didn't stop contacting me and showing up to my work. It's so terrifying when these things happen.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:14

It is really scary byegOOd. And you have to wonder how many women have fled from AA, at the same time thinking it was the only way to get sober. It's a terrible choice to have to make if you have this false dichotomy that AA creates that it's either going to AA and putting yourself at risk to gawd knows what, or leaving and drinking yourself to death.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:26

And the treatment industry doesn't do much about it either because they keep hailing AA as the be all or end all of support groups, and don't offer up any other options, and if you so much as question AA watch the F out ! It'd be a HUGE step if non-12 step treatment programs became more mainstream.

massive's picture

massive

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 21:03

c & e OMG that is very scary!

Massive

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:20

That must of freaked you out him showing up at your work. That should of been red flag number#1 !
That sounds like predatory behavior. I know NA is having behind closed doors about predatory behavior workshops. Have not heard of anything coming out of these workshops about predatory behavior in Narcotics Anonymous. It is alive and well!

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:25

I was terrified. Scared my car would be keyed up, or that he was gonna be waiting to follow me home. And he showed up TWICE until I threatened him with the cops. And my body reacted terribly due to the stress (I've had bad experiences before and it just brought back those old feelings of being scared to be alone and scared for my safety). And he kept trying to push AA on me too when I was on the date with him, and he was spewing out their thought stopping slogans...he sounded real brain washed...it was strange. He's probably at home right now in a white suit boiling a bunny. He was seriously unhinged and I wouldn't be shocked if he's a stepper, and it just made me wanna hug everyone I knew who was mentally stable.

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:49

Byegood, are you a guy like your picture reflects? Just wondering. That is funny after an experience like that wanting to go hug the mentally stable ones you knew! Good idea! There are some seriously ill people in AA, that is for sure. I am glad you escaped unharmed!

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:55

Haha no, I'm a woman ! That's a picture of Joaquin Phoenix from his "I'm still here" film. Just trying to keep my identity hidden a little, also I really like that image. Yeah, I never felt safe in AA ... AT ALL. Made me nervous as hell going there, and being inside those walls. There's ill people everywhere, but the fact that they prey on people because they know they're vulnerable...it's sick.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:58

Of course it's sick. You said it yourself: they're ill people. How else would you expect them to behave?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:24

You had me going there for a minute! I mean ya never know right? Well it worked keeping your identity a secret! Glad you dumped him in a hurry! It is the more normal ones sometimes that prey on the more vulnerable and ill ones. They have a different level of sickness.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

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