Are You Safe in an Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting?

Submitted by AntiDenial on Sat, 05/19/2012 - 17:15

The safety problems in AA and NA are starting to be getting more attention!

Are You Safe in an Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting?

Written by Laura Tompkins May 17th 2012

How many steps are there? Twelve, right? Wrong. There are Thirteen. "Thirteenth-stepping" is a euphemistic term used among members of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) to refer to people (particularly men) who target new, more vulnerable members (typically women) for dates or sex.

Previous research suggests that women frequently experience sexual harassment in 12 step meetings.

Just the fact the term "thirteenth-stepping" exists serves as a warning.

Since thousands of convicted felons are mandated to AA by the US courts, this warning must be heeded.

Entire article-

http://pacificpalisades.patch.com/blog_posts/are-you-safe-in-an-alcoholi...

Comments

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:57

Yup. It does eventually come down to what someone is just going to do. I used an example of a couple in MB where they do what they want but there are no pans to divorce. His wife doesn't care that he dates others. I didn't know that was the arrangement and warned off a woman that was interested in him. The wife, the man AND the second woman told me to MYOB when I thought I was being responsible and looking out for a vulnerable person. I took the approach of perhaps dating someone that actually had something to offer more than a rolll in the hay.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

massive's picture

massive

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 02:11

Clara SHUT UP you have no idea what you are talikng about and this is just more

PRO Stepper talk. GO AWAY. Climb under your AA pro AA rock and GO TO SLEEP. GIVE IT A REST!!!!

Massive

Jesus-is-Fraud's picture

Jesus-is-Fraud

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 06:36

Not everyone in AA is an arsehole or an idiot.

Learn the difference.

I have had a LOT of sponsors in AA and NA - some of them were brilliant, some of them were not terribly inspiring and some of them were devious arseholes - but all of them were beneficial.

Look for the good things, look for the kind and helpful people, look for the things to be grateful for, look for the opportunities to learn and apply the lessons - no matter who or where the opportunities come from.

"If you can grab enough twigs - you have a life raft." (c) Me.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:59

Massive, why don't you just leapfrog my posts?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 05:06

Clara,
a girl can say no to a guy raping her or punching her in the face, but this isn't going to stop the guy. A person, either sex can make the mistake of trusting everyone in the room, the members, the program, the group, the organization, but this doesn't make the room, members, program, group, organization trustworthy. You can tell an abuser, manipulator, exploiter no, but they are not going to comply & you can trust AA, but that isn't going to make it trustworthy. Wilson was untrustworthy & that's an understatement, there is no way that a group he had the operations & management of was going to be anything but a reflection & creation of his narcissism & control freak issues.

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:01

Patti, rape is rape. If something is illegal outside the rooms of AA, it is illegal INside those rooms. Deal with it the same as you would anyplace else.

Criminal acts differ from the usually accepted definition of 13 stepping. People on this board call my husband a 13 stepper when he never did that at all. So, I have to conclude that what is a 13 step to one can be a simple invitation between two adult people to go have dinner to another.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:44

Clara,
definitely rape is rape & it is illegal. Surely you are aware that female members who have been raped by a male member have been told that what goes in AA stays in AA. Insult to injury, after being physically & sexually assaulted the victim then was told they did not have the right to justice or the right to protect others by verbal warning or possibly getting the offender off the street & out of the rooms. There also is date rape, the victim trusts the offender & is in a vulnerable position & gets date raped. Again when they have gone to the fellows in the fellowship they were told to not report it or speak of it, just sweep that rape & assault under the rug & focus on your sobriety, cause focusing on this, not minding your own business & not keeping your side of the street clean may jeopardize your sobriety & will be first & foremost bad for AA, the group, the organization & for all the members. Clara, AA is a secret & anonymous group & it's a sub culture, a cult. The members of AA can & do make their own rules, it's a weird little world & a lot of really weird things go on, such as advising a member not to do anything about a rape or rapist. Members have been brain washed to believe & follow "suggestions", such as not reporting a rape, due to the weirdness & cult aspects of AA & due to trusting the "suggestions" from other members. It is a sad, sad truth & I really & genuinely wish it was not the case, but it has happened, does happen & will continue to happen, because nothing, absolutely nothing is being done by AA to provide some kinds of safety for members, they are minding their own business. Also how can an organization based on the steps & psychological advise of two insane men, Buchman & Wilson, do anything that is sane, including admitting there are real safety problems & doing something to resolve it. You have 2 hypocrites that started their own cults, how can anything but hypocritical behavior, suggestions & actions be the norm. You can't have normal in an environment based on the abnormal minds of Wilson & Buchman.

patti

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:34

Patti, This is what the article is trying to address in part. Serious crimes against women,minors and men.
This is no laughing matter, and deserves to be discussed as the important matter that it is. We do not need more swepping under the rug from Big Book thumpers. They are sick, sick puppies to watch the vulnerable be violated and do nothing.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

AntiDenial

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:05

Alcoholics Anonymous depresses everyone around them man tells judge during sentencing!

Ya think?! Go figure....

http://nadaytona.org/2012/05/04/ex-aa-member-bashes-aa-to-judge-stating-...

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

AntiDenial

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 22:22

Teens are not life long addicts. Researchers say Alcoholics Anonymous is not effective for youth!

http://nadaytona.org/2012/03/21/teens-are-not-life-long-addicts-research...

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 22:13

Is that supposed to read, "Teens are not life long addicts. Researchers say Alcoholics Anonymous is not effective for youth!" or "Teens are not life long addicts, researchers say. Alcoholics Anonymous is not effective for youth!"?

It makes a subtle difference in what you're conveying. And I disagree that teens are not lifelong addicts. Some continue way into adulthood, some until death.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AntiDenial

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:19

Georgia man arrested for molesting girl in a NA Meeting this year. It is a crime in NA to sexually abuse too!

http://nadaytona.org/2012/03/29/narcotics-anonymous-member-arrested-for-...

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 23:34

“We families of Alcoholics Anonymous keep few skeletons in the closet. Everyone knows about the others' alcoholic troubles.”

Unless of course it is AA the fellowship that is having troubles. Then it is "hush-hush, let's not scare the newcomers". It was intended that AAs share everything, even those dark little secrets or personal hardships. The more deeply one share is it becomes commonplace that others do the same. I have regret for opening up as much as I did even though in comparison it was miniscule. But gads, talk about getting caught up in the moment.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:03

No, it is not necessarily intended that you share everything in a ROOM. I share a lot with my sponsor that I would never discuss in a roomful of people, some I might know and love and others I have never seen before and wouldn't see again. I can see getting caught up in the moment, but there are others that routinely do that.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:36

Sexual abuse is not an issue of having a lot of choice. There are also other forms like, sexual harassments, rape, groping etc. The article is not about a man or a woman just saying no! Maybe people should actually read it. Like the story of the little girl in A NA meeting that was sexually assaulted by a mandated violent felon in Georgia this year! Courts are mandating sexual offenders to these meetings along with other dangerous felons. Plus you have members who have been sober for decades sexually assaulting worse women, teens and men. The arrticle did not say just women- mostly women.

The fact that AA and NA cover this up and do nothing up it is horrible!

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

disclosure

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 07:54

A couple years ago at the retreat I heard an interesting speaker. This woman admitted from the podium that she sexually abused her children. The fun was after the meeting watching and listening to all the ladies in the audience who went up to thank her and share their own child abuse stories.
You're not in a safe place, what is said in AA does not stay there.
The more I think about the health and safety risk involved in AA attendance the more grateful I am that I escaped unharmed.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:08

I have heard this same thing. In my case, a man was the guest speaker with his family in the front row. He told his story, admitted some abuse on his kids (didn't go into specifics) and that he had been forgiven and his family was intact due to AA. It can play out in any number of ways. That his family was there supporting him had value.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:56

disclosure,
you & me both, when I think what could have happened to me instead of just the mind fuck & the verbal abuse & control freakness that I was subjected to, yeah I made out like a bandit compared to what could have happened. But i personally know members who have been seriously abused, seriously manipulated & controlled & they & their families & children have been really damaged & I am obligated to try to do something, something about the madness of AA. Addicts need advocates, especially against AA & NA & their families need advocates against the Anons. Exposing the madness of AA.

patti

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:09

Patti, I really appreciate your thoughts on this. More people need to advocate for the vulnerable and naive.
You are a good writer! This topic is very important to me. Protecting minors in AA and NA is at the top of my list. I also have seen an older man who let a NA member come stay at his house for awhile. The guy ripped him off, and beat the hell out of him. He had 2 black eyes and other physical damage as well. He was I think in his late 60's. He said he felt lucky to be alive.

Of course this guy was not so innocent either as he had threatened citizens in our park with a gun! I guess he did not have it on him when his new roomate nearly killed him.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

massive's picture

massive

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:45

I heard a few of these at women's meetings myself. They mad me sick.

Massive

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:51

Holey Water you have got to be kidding me.!?! Is this not what give other addicts a bad rep? Morally corrupt, deviant people portraying everyone that walks in the door. Again, admitting that step work and confessing your sins is what keeps you sober and offers serenity gives a picture that it is because we are sinful that we are addicts. That this represents recovery stigmatizes all of us.

This is what I mean about taking responsibility but not taking on more than your own share.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:06

Leaving AA, and avoiding going for your own mental health and safety is advised. Even the Mental Health Courts are expanding with both very disturbed criminals, plus addiction. At least for those that still decide to go and brave it, at least people should be warned before going.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:09

I think there is plenty of press that shows that these people are mandated to AA as well as other help groups. Texas mandates to other groups than AA. I don't think people are as naive as these posters would want us to believe they are....

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:07

Clara,
you know, you have to know that AA gets a tremendous amount of good press, including movies & TV shows, etc. And AA itself is a self praising group, full of itself & repeatedly claims to "work" & be successful, when it is in fact not successful & fails miserably. Would you recommend a Dr. or medical treatment that fails over 95% of the time for most people, just because you claim it worked for you, that is immoral & unethical. AA is immoral & unethical, this is not common knowledge, that it doesn't work is not common knowledge. That people are sentenced to AA is common knowledge for DUI & DWI convictions, that parolees for violent crimes & assaults are sentenced to AA & NA is not common knowledge. Maybe @ each & every AA & NA meeting the tradition could become to warn the room that there may be convicted parolees present & that they are welcome & that AA & NA actively participate in sentenced & mandated attendee's & interact with the court & prisons & jails in order to promote that these attendee's are sentenced to AA. Tell the truth AA & NA & the Anons.

patti

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:36

Patti, Actually I have had multipe, actually countless members of AA and NA that have lied about the mandating and the part they play in it. When you confront them, they will tell you to go complain the the judicial system. Don't blame them, they have nothing to do with it! What a lying bunch of crock! They are so in bed with the judicial system, with their Hospitals and Institutions divisions! In fact they are braggin in Florida about getting into Maximum secuity prisons.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

patti

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:44

AD,
yep the old & tired lie, my group doesn't do that, doesn't sign or participate or the other infamous lie not in my group. It's pretty hard for brain washed people to tell the truth.

patti

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:15

Patti, I actually had the treasurer of Daytona Beach NA tell me to my face that they did not sell literature!At the time I did not know she was the treasurer, but found out later. Blew me away! A true pathological liar at it's best. She later also had said it was not NA's fault about court mandating. She did not know how much information I had about the topic, and thought she would just baffle me with typical AA bullcrap.
When I debate AA and NA members with knowledge I have, they usually become stumped once they knew they are caught in lies. I never was an AA member, and they know that most that are not in 12 step meetings, do not realize the truth. They are shocked when they realize that I actually do know the truth about how they operate and LIE.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

patti

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:59

A.D.
yep like all con people they are used to interacting & conning the battered & vulnerable, addicts & they are used to a position of authority, knowledge & wisdom to the battered addict & they are used to the premise of trust the poor addict thinks is part of the help that is available. Just like an unethical sales person, etc. they will lie if that is what it takes to make the sale. yeah, their shocked they are shocked cause they belong to groups with over 75 years of getting away with pathological lying & complete & utter nonsensical bullshit. Glad you got one, they need reality jolts, also they are lied to, sometimes they do not even know they are lying, they repeat & parrot, including lies they have been told pertaining to court participation. But her position as Treasurer, she probably knew the truth about this situation.

patti

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:36

The Daytona NA Treasurer knew she was lying! Damn she collected thousand of dollars for them. She eventually was suspected of stealing NA money, and refused to give monthly financial reports. It devasted NA Daytona financially. This was only part of her lying ways. She filed false police reports, and got other NA and AA members to lie to police.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 09:57

Yep, the same group that invites criminals complains that they don't want them there.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:13

Is'nt that insane AVO? They say they have nothing to do with it, yet they do have something to do with it.
Then lie and complain about! I have heard though that many have left both AA and NA because of the mandated violent criminals, and that is leaving a higher percentage of court mandates in the meetings, making them even more dangerous.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 10:36

Yeah, I saw that a LOT more in NA than in AA. Yet you still have people who will say that addicts have no place in AA, that they should go associate with the hell on wheels criminal element in NA (that's the way it is here, at least) because we can "relate" better there.....ugh.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 11:21

As much as AA might not like it, they have not been able to control drug addicts coming to their meetings. Their was a crack head at last weeks Holly Hill meetings, and he was black. I am sure the all white group where jumping for joy with there new attendee. They certainly seem to be biased about drug addicts and blacks. Yet with courts actually mandating AA to drug addicts, and other AA members supporting it, it effects all AA groups.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
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Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:32

AntiDenial wrote:
"Their was a crack head at last weeks Holly Hill meetings, and he was black. I am sure the all white group where jumping for joy with there new attendee. They certainly seem to be biased about drug addicts and blacks."

I am so happy your true colors are showing. You really are an ignorant fool aren't you??

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

patti

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:59

AD,
yeah the fellowship was not into having this fellow addict there, another example of that serenity. And again AA's top doggies, do not care @ all about the rank & file member & what they need or want, including the true believer & devout fanatic. Filling those rooms & keeping the monster going & keep making money via selling books & donations & keeping their fat cat & overpaid jobs is what really matters, the company surviving is what they care about, not any rank & file member, including Clara, Beckett or Trish.

patti

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 14:07

Patti, AA has written literature of how they are percieved to be predjudiced against color and gays. There own demographic is overwelmingly white. Your point of them just caring about selling more Big Books to groups as well as prisons and rehabs is so true. That is their bread and butter. Not the safety of children, teens, women, gay men etc.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 11:26

Plus you have probation officers and therapists telling drug abusers to go to AA, thinking it might be a tad better. But AA has cigarette addicts and coffee addicts too! They dont kick them out! They just like to cherry pick the addictions they want to deal with. Both have become dangerous. AA was known for 13 stepping and sexual assaults by old timers for decades before the court system made it worse

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
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Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 11:44

Well, the difference where I live is that there are NO NA groups that are free from this nonsense, but there are AA ones that are. Relatively speaking. There are some pretty posh AA groups, not that that indicates safety, but they attract more of the people who aren't in trouble for their addictions and just wanting to quit, as opposed to some groups that have both people who just want to quit and people trying to chase away legal troubles.

There's another aspect to it too, though. Some groups here, NA and AA, operate as social clubs, others just as support for the hour you're there. Some are heavily into "recovery culture" in the AA side of things, some are simply not. They're where you go to connect on this one issue and then LEAVE. Anonymously. No one tries to find out your entire life story, your last name, where you live, etc. It exists only for what it is (in my mind) there to exist for. That is absent on the NA circuit here. Those people see everyone as "new family" and the same people hit every meeting. That happens in AA too, but the AA groups outnumber the NAs about 10 to 1, so there's simply more variety.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:38

There certainly is a lot of Love bombing in NA meetings! I have had them come up to me and try and hug me in the park, and I am not even an NA member. Then male NA members have walked up to non NA members guys and tried to hug them too!. The men were like WTF dude? Get the hell away from me!

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
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NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:49

Anti

"There certainly is a lot of Love bombing in NA meetings! "

I makes me want to throw up just thinking about it...it really is totally false......mushy bollocks. How did I get taken in?

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:01

NOAAUK, from what I observed many did not feel comfortable about it at all!. The really gross guys always wanted the big long hugs from the attractive women. You could tell they just went along, but seemed to want to vomit instead.

You got taken in most likely like how most people do in cults. You are made to feel part of something, and are given the false sense that these people actually give a shit about you! People want to be liked and have a sense of belonging. You wised up- that is the good news! Welcome back to the real world!

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
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Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 11:48

Anti--I was also told, numerous times and by a variety of people working in "addiction services" to go to AA, not NA. By the end it was pretty explicit, with two even telling me, "You don't belong in NA. Go to AA." I can't even drink alcohol, so it's obviously not something I had a problem with, by circumstance if nothing else. But that's how stark the difference is between AA and NA where I happen to live. Honestly, I ran into the same problem in Florida once too, though. Actually, the NA meetings I hit there were all white keytag meetings, everyone except the person chairing the meeting.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:34

It is interesting how many people are telling people to go to AA instead. It might account as to why there are more problems coming to light in AA meetings. In our area we are having problems with both AA and NA meetings with harrassment, threats, assaults etc.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
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byeg00d's picture

byeg00d

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 05:26

When I was going to AA meetings in treatment, I remember we NEVER introduced ourselfs as "Addict/Alcoholic" (if we had both drug and alcohol problems)...just "Alcoholic" because from what it seemed like, NA/CA was for addicts and AA was for alcoholics...WTF difference does it make which 12 step meeting I go to and how I introduce myself? 12 step meetings are step meetings, and I'm someone with an addiction problem who is in need of support, but I distinctly remember it being a big issue and my mind is a little hazy from that time period.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:35

All that has changed is your propaganda, it keeps getting more outrageous. Look at the #'s they are still in the millions....:)

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 11:52

Is this Judy, the one whose children that the poster allegedly photographed? I actually believed her complaint since photographs of the meetings do exist on the anti website. Someone took them, and all they show are people minding their own business in a prayer circe.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:07

Pedophile Banker gets mandated to Alcoholics Anonymous Meetings.

http://nadaytona.org/2012/04/23/pedophile-banker-mandated-to-alcoholics-...

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
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AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 08:12

Disclosure, that is terrible! There is sex abuse on both sides of the aisle. Also in 'domestic abuse' cases in court, where it is usually, not always the boyfriend or husband-they are sent left and right to AA and NA. This includes physically beating their children as well. So many women are vulnerable to get involved with wife beaters as well.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
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Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:37

http://blog.chron.com/momhouston/2011/04/moms-killing-their-children-mor...
Moms killing their children more common than you think

The news this month has been filled with stories of mothers who kill their children. There’s Lashanda Armstrong who killed herself and three of her four children by driving into the Hudson River. There’s Kristen LaBrie in Massachusetts who was convicted of attempted murder and sentenced to ten years after withholding cancer medicine from her 9-year-old autistic son. In Houston, 21-year-old Angelica Huerta Clark has been arrested on a charge of murder after police say she killed her newborn daughter by leaving her in the trash shortly after Christmas.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

patti

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 14:04

Kristen LaBrie was that a faith healing case? Did she not give the medicine because of praying for healing & against her religious belief's?

patti

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