Has SMART UK become an AA recruiting ground?

Yes sorry about that JR. Ive been longing to get this question debated since I joined this forum I think I have brought it up in the wrong place.

When I was involved with trying to get MM started in the UK and a couple of SMART meetings as well I was told you can't 'bash' AA and promote MM at the same time. I don't understand why, I don't see any common ground between AA and MM and very little between AA and SMART other that they both purport to practice total abstinence. I would further say you may have to bash AA if you are to regain any level of controlled drinking. Anyway there is definitley censorship about AA critisism in both organisations. What we called exposing the truth they call 'ranting' or 'bashing'

Ive related what happened at Turning Point Westminster with both the SMART meeting I started which was taken over and now is run by a stepper and the MM meeting which had to be abandoned. I really have to watch what I say, confidences can be breached I could possibly set my self up for a lawsuit, but I have very strong reasons to believe SMART UK is being infiltrated by steppers.

Tom Horvarth SMART President stops critisim of AA on the SMART training video. I can't re watch it now, I'm no longer a member, so I really have to be totally sure of my facts as much as I can recal. A woman comes to a SMART meeting doing the stepper routine...Hi I'm whatever and I'm an Alcoholic and proceeds with some stepper talk. Another member who's obviously a bit under the influence of booze says 12 step is bollocks or words to that effect. Tom Horvarth corrects him saying something along the lines of SMART dosen't critisise other groups and theres plenty of evidence to say AA works for lots of people (he dosen't say what evidence). The idea is that SMART does not critisise AA, saying bollocks or whatever was not the reason for the correction nor is rudness the point being considered. I was personally disgusted. We all know exposure of the lies misinformation and scaremongering indoctrination of stepism, if only the powerlessness concept, is necessary for habit change, I don't like the word recovery, I'm not recovering from anything I'm just trying to change a bad habit either by moderation or total abstinence, it dosen't matter, its still habit change.

Anyway the point is Tom Horvarth is not concerned with the damage stepper indoctination may have done to members of the group, only not upsetting the stepper. He's effectiley giving steppers the green light to infiltrate SMART. I and others really don't want to be around Steppers or listen to their talk, I thought that was the idea of non 12 step alternatives. For christs sake there are enough stepper meetings do we have to hear it at the few SMART meetings.

What I would say about SMART UK meetings is check the London meetings at Turning Point and Bromley. The person who started and did run the Bromley meeting was or possibly still is an active stepper, he talks stepper. If anybody in the London area does check out these meetings I'd be interested to hear are these actualy being run as stepper meetings or how much stepper talk or is any stepper rectuitment going on at these meetings.

An enqiry regarding MM I had from Devon was the original founder of the SMART meeting in Paignton I'm pretty certain. Although at the time not an active stepper he was a former stepper and an advocate of 12 step and a member of some christian church that raises alarm bells with me. The 2nd person to try to start SMART in Nottingham was a member of Self Help Nottingham and a promoter of 12 step.

I may be over reacting except for Turning Point Westmister, but all these SMART facilitators have connections to AA and are not anti AA or or promoters of AA. I know only one other former SMART facilitor, the first involved in SMART Nottingham, he was not pro AA

I personally think SMART UK will be a mogrel, some anti AA, some pro AA sexual predators and control freaks possilbly flitting between both as AA declines. I'm not impressed by SMART UK

I hear you. I went to a meeting in Santa MOnica and the leader stopped me after I ranted about what I was finding and how I left AA. Many newbies were speaking stepper talk in Smart and not being corrected , when they come from rehab which 90 % of them do now, they are all talking AA bullshit, and rhetoric.

Tom Horvath said I needed to create a trauma support group for ex steppers. I agree, but I am a little too busy to do that at the moment. SOS doesn't tolerate it. TRy SOS. CAll JIM Christopher and he will send you a packet to start an SOS support group if you like over there. He hates AA.

Alot of the member at SOS the night I went were bashing AA.

makeaasafer@gmail.com dont be put off by this email. I created it when I was still in AA. when I created www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com then when I left and ST went down I created www.leavinaa.com with the support of ftg.

Go for SOS then, they sound like a genuine alternative to stepism. Last time I looked on the SMART UK website, most of the meetings were in Treatment Centres. My experience of Treatment Centre Coucellors, which was mainly trying to Promote MM and SMART, are that they are mostly, unemployable anywhere else, recovery obssesive gurus. I dont think ex substance abusers should be allowed to become Treatment Centre Councellors, talk about loss of objectivity and the Lunatics running the Asylum. As Jesus is a fraud said, Sobriety is a bout living, doing something else not just stopping drinking, or words to that effect. There was talk once of paying some SMART UK facilitators, making them sort of semi professionals. Its not traditional peer led support and the trained facilitator thing just creates a ranking system same as AA, not a group of equals like I tried to create with MM where the facilitator really just ensures the meeting takes place. The one thing I learned from AA was how NOT to run a support group and if you are doing the opposite of them, you are doing it right. I really think SMART UK will just become a sort of little side line, a little bit of REBT for steppers or as I said a sort of mongrel organisation. I believe they are only interested in numbers of meetings, who runs them or who attends doesn't really matter. Maybe it really is best to just 'go it alone' with a manual, SMART or otherwise. The whole treatment system seems totally screwed up to me. What I saw of Turning Point was mostly different service users every time I went, but to be fair it was only saturdays. Retention rate didn't look impressive

I've looked into SMART and it's nowhere near my area, the closest meeting (if I recall) was in Ottawa...8 hrs away. I hope it takes off and becomes more available, or others programs similar because unfortunatley AA is the dominant support group, and I'm really looking right now, but everything sounds SO similar to 12 step. I'm even kinda nervous about Women For Sobriety.

SMART Recovery in my opinion does not tolerate much AA bashing for self serving reasons.
SMART Recovery was started after people left Rational Recovery. Anyone familiar with RR knows that the founder Jack Trimpey hates AA and he is very vocal about his distain for AA. I very much have great respect for his honest opinions on AA. I believe though that founders of SMART realized early on that AA was so integrated in society, that if they had any hope in getting recognized by the very pro-AA rehab industry, that they could not come out with guns blazing about AA. It just was not, and still is not politically correct to speak negatively about Alcoholics Anonymous. It is as if you were speaking poorly of the Pope himself.

Also I can imagine that meetings could become more of a anti-AA sessions versus using the tools that SMART Recovery has to help people fighting addictions. It takes away from what SMART is there for. I could see where entire meetings would be shares about horror stories of AA. There are so many valid complaints and unhappy campers in AA, that SMART I believe could not do it's job if meetings became consumed with AA bashing. Plus because courts mandate so many meetings, some people prefer SMART, but have go to AA to meet the silly amount of meetings the court requires. So SMART whether they like it or not, are having to deal with steppers left and right with the rehab industry , judicial system and steppers that do come to meetings as well.

I get the impression SMART is trying not to alienate steppers. I believe this is why SMART Recovery is growing by leaps and bounds. They are getting more recognition from the government, judicial systems and rehabs.

The demand for online meetings is exploding too. They have done this by being politically correct, because it was important to get their foot in the door to the many opportunities to help people.

Yes, I have heard of x-steppers running a SMART Meeting because they jumped ship. So many people come to them already doctrinated by 12 step dogma, they do the best they can in an overwelmingly AA biased world.

It is important to SMART to to win the battle and not just the war.

I personally wish they would be more open to let the poor AA souls that come unto their doorstep to vent some more about their negative experiences with AA/NA, and also to do more to correct 12 step dogma talk.

But to answer the question is Tom Horvath pro AA? NO! I think as president of SMART he feels he has to be held to a higher standard as far as not to bash AA. After attending last years annual SMART conference, SMART is not pro AA in my opinion at all. They are just overly politically correct. I do wish they would loosen up a bit, and I believe they are starting to an extent. There is still room for improvement!

Check them out at www.smartrecovery.org and the anti-AA site www.nadaytona.org

There were UK reps at the conference, and they were wonderful people and the UK is growing very rapidly . In part the UK is much more secular in general, and not as stuck on the religious AA as the US is.

Also face to face SMART meetings are growing as well. There is a growing interest nationally and more people are starting meetings. They also have online meetings that can be verified for the probation officers that allow it. There website also is filled with excellent data.