"It Works"? Or "It Helps"?

BB Kate's picture
Submitted by BB Kate on Thu, 05/17/2012 - 17:18

I have always found the statement "It Works" in relation to AA, or most other treatment programs, to be distasteful. It seems to imply a level fo efficacy that is misleading. For example, if i were to say "Morpheine works to provide pain relief", that would be a medical fact. It is proven to provide pain relief, and does so (i assume) in all cases where adminstration is biologically tolerated.

But this is not the case with any method of addiction treatment. Addicts respond to different methods of treatment, and no one treatment is effective for everyone. Thus, AA members usually make the disclaimer "It works, for me". But this kind of statement is inappropriate for any treatment methodology. It either works or it doesn't. Pharmaceuticals are not approved on the basis of them working "for me". Minimum standards are required in order to claim they are an effective treatment.

A comment by genejoe on an earlier Al-Anon blog post, which said that psychological treatment may help some people, got me thinking. I think i would be more comfortable with recovered addicts saying "It helps", or "It helped me". This type of statement is not only a more accurate reflection of the subjective experience, it also points to the complexity of addiction recovery - multiple inputs are usually required.

I just wonder if 12 Step members are trying to gain some sort of credibility by claiming "It works", even though the claim is not scientifically valid.

Any thoughts?

Comments

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 05/17/2012 - 17:56

Any program where not drinking is an element of the program works if you work it. So yes, if not drinking is part of the AA program, and you follow the entire program, then AA will work. Of course, that's not saying much.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

gigi

Thu, 05/17/2012 - 18:41

It helps has a more genuine ring to it. It works just doesn't make sense. What works? Which part? There are too many conflicting messages for "it works" to be true. It doesn't. People succeed and people fail with or without the fellowship, with or without the steps, with or without the literature.
It might help. It might not. I wonder how I would have felt if that was the message that I heard? Would that have been better or worse? I'm not sure but at least it would have been an honest message.
And what about "it gets better?" That always bothered me more than "it works." What if it doesn't get better? What then? There were never any answers beyond keep coming back and work those steps.
Tell me this: "AA might help you get through this truly horrific time in your life if you're willing to do the leg work and lean on us for some moral support and companionship. Other than that, it's up to you. You'll either do it or you won't."

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

DeConstructor's picture

DeConstructor

Thu, 05/17/2012 - 18:57

voids the undeserved credibility that the recovery industry relies on to bilk health insurance carriers big bucks.

msafrany

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 05:34

There is no such thing as a "program" for alcoholism. Either you drink, or you don't. There is no such thing as a "program" that gets you sober or keeps you sober. There is no such thing as a "program" that makes you want to be sober, as much as there is no "program" that makes you want to mow your lawn.
AA gives people a reason to meet and provides ideas that occupy a persons mind and their time.
In reality, these activities could be anything that is not related to drinking, as Pennywise stated above.
So I can see where AA helps (great choice of a word), to change the addiction behavior. Unfortunately it is designed to keep a person stuck in a new behavior cycle. That of a cult religion disciple. This can certainly lead to depression and/or suicide.
And to think it is so unnecessary. All we need is a program that encourages people to make new friends and find new interests. A fellowship, not "program", that sends people to professionals for psychological, spiritual, financial and emotional issues.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 05:54

msafrany says: "Unfortunately it is designed to keep a person stuck in a new behavior cycle." And what would that new behavior cycle be?

msafrany

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 07:40

The actual practice of these behaviors vary from member to member, as they say,you can keep what you like and leave the rest. Some of these behaviors include, but are not limited to:

Surrounding yourself with other true believers, with very little social contact with "normies".
Running from meeting to meeting to meeting, to avoid dealing with problems.
To mindlessly shove the 12 step religion onto every stranger that is new to the cult.
To focus obsessively on cult religion teachings, parroting slogans and other "inside" language.
To supress individual thoughts and ideas as being "defective", surrendering to the "truth" of the program.

Getting bored already...bye.

patti

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 08:14

Msafrany,
those cult behaviors unfortunately @ times are even worse than when the person was using/drinking! They are detrimental to the culties mental health & to those around them, their families, etc. It's really just such a "sick" program & I think it makes people "sick". Even though I think they have good intentions, the fanatics that represent the average member is just such an unhealthy person to be trying to help anyone else. The whole thing just doesn't have a damn thing to do with health & well being, help or support. I do not think @ this point it can be amended or improved, it just needs to dissolve. My whole life I've watched the Catholic church change their policies in order to maintain members, but I don't think AA can change, they are stuck on stupid.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 14:27

Changing policy is not changing doctrine, and the Roman Catholic church has done very little policy changing for any reason, either to placate the older members or to attract new members. Vatican II allowed that priests could finally say the mass in Spanish, French of English instead of the traditional Latin. They made it permissible for a Catholic to read a Protestant bible. They have made room for Charismatic masses to be said. Changes in liturgy and administrative practices have been made. But no doctrine changes have occurred, and not one of the teachings and practices of Roman Catholicism adopted over the last 1,600 years was altered in any way by the Second Vatican Council.

"The `Constitution on the Church' makes it abundantly clear that Rome has no intention of revising any of her basic doctrine, but only of updating her methods and techniques for more efficient administration and to present a more attractive appearance. This is designed to make it easier for the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant churches to return to her fold. There is no indication that she has any intentions of entering into genuine give-and-take church unity negotiations. Her purpose is not union, but absorption. Church union with Rome is strictly a one-way street. The age-old danger that Protestantism has faced from the Roman Church has not diminished; in fact, it may well have increased. For through this less offensive posture and this superficial ecumenicism, Rome is much better situated to carry out her program of eliminating opposition and moving into a position of world dominance. An infallible church simply cannot repent." ~ Dr. Loraine Boettner, preeminent evangelical authority on Roman Catholic doctrine.

patti, I think it would be good if you could find an example other than the Catholic Church to support your argument.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

patti

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 04:40

Sure they do, they relax the rules & policies to keep people from leaving. Might see Priest's being able to marry in my lifetime.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 11:32

"Only A Few Cult Behaviors" ~

Twenty years.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 22:19

Nope. Not observed.

Getting bored already, too.

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 11:19

I am graateful to be stuck in my new behavior patterns that I learned in AA 'cause they surely are better than what I had before...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 05:07

For me, the nicest relieve & thing to be out of & away from AA was the quiet. I could think quietly, live quietly, it was peaceful & serene. No more control freaks, no more micro managing from control freaks, no more being belittled for being my self. No more abuse from control freaks & micro managers. A friend of mine from childhood expressed to me he felt the same way upon leaving & said his wake up call was when he left a meeting one night & thought to himself, "I'm not going to let a bunch of dumb fucking roofers run my life anymore". His home group fit the average AA member, blue collar, high school drop out, white, middle aged male. The quiet of my own thoughts, own feelings, no more nonsensical chatter, chatter, chatter. After being quiet for awhile & becoming my own person again, I am grateful to be my own person again.

patti

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 01:38

All that you ever needed to do was practice principles you knew of before AA. You just didn't. Try not to lie. Admit when your wrong. Have some humility. Learn from your mistakes.... I believe that you mentioned a religious background. If that's true than you likely had already learned to be thankful and love yourself and HP. Are you saying that AA taught you these things? What did AA teach you? They tell you to practice "these principles" in all of your affairs. I still don't know what AA teaches and don’t think it’s much of anything. I’m thinking that you knew what you should do and feel that you needed to be told to do it. They certainly don't explain how. Just do it....or else. The group won't love you, your sponsor will give up on you, there won't be anywhere to go, your husband will be angry. I personally don't think that we need to be taught much more of anything, just figure out what aspects we needed to tune and put in place all that we had learned prior.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

patti

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 04:56

Avo,
all I needed to do was figure out a way to quit drinking. My being did not need an overhaul, I wasn't immoral, selfish, etc. I was in so much pain & agony, so raw, I just drank & drank & drank to numb the pain. It did provide some temporary relief. What bothers me tremendously about AA, is Wilson's description of the addict, he is describing himself & his narcissism, his mental illnesses, it was an unconscious honest description, some truth for a brief moment in the madness of AA. My ethics, morality, being a decent person did not change because I was drunk, I was still decent, kind & thoughtful, I was just drunk most of the time. I went to AA in despair, knew I was going to drink myself to death & like most people actually thought it would help me, instead I got verbally battered, basically relentlessly nagged, my head would actually physically hurt from the contradictions & the lack of logic & nothing making any sense @ all. I had support group experience for other problems & AA was nothing like those groups, we actually listened to one another, no one told anyone what they were thinking or feeling was wrong, no one told you how you should feel about anything. We would tell one another how we had coped or what we had done to deal with the pain, problem, etc. AA has nothing to do with support, you only get support if you are a good little stepper & follow the instructions & lie & say you are serene & all is wonderful, it is absolutely insane. AA is ugly, it's about some seriously mentally ill guy coming up with a con to pay his bills, he was a control freak & narcissist so the group is based on controlling steps to terrify members & keep them for life to work for free, it is a cult, not as hard core as the Moonies, but it is about control & abuse, mind control taking over vulnerable people's minds, the goal for rest of their life's & hopefully AA is in the will of members. AA doesn't teach anything that anyone needs to know to quit an addiction, nothing. I agree with everything you have written. Attacking people's morals, ethics, hearts, souls & minds is just part of a cult's break down process, the steps are to establish a new persona that follows the orders & does not, absolutely does not trust their own mind or heart or self. There isn't a damn thing about AA that is worth knowing or doing.

patti

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 17:49

Steps 6 and 7 must be some kind of behaviour cycle if you have to keep working them. Does God remove these defects of character only temporarily and then they return. Or do you have to keep "being entirely ready" and "humbly ask him" to remove new defects of character that constantly sprout.

If the original defects of character do return, when is it, at the stroke of midnight?

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

patti

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 05:48

Agree with DC, a real support group, that may help & keep you occupied. A real support group has people who come together with the same problems or feelings & help one another out, with ideas, with things that helped them, etc. Not a "program" with ideals that no one lives up to, nor can they & then you have the contradictions, finger pointing & blame. I think the steps & the babble that go with it, really just come down to a seriously mental ill guy describing himself & coming up with all kinds of tactics to keep people controlled so he can get what he wants in life, especially his wife. I do not like the unhealthy words in AA, especially "sick", that gets thrown around a lot, in multiple situations, there is a lot of diagnosing occurring by unqualified lay people, that is really not good. I think "it works", is just more of that immediately controlling any member, just a sales tactic, buy this it works. I just imagined an AA infomercial, lol.

patti

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 06:03

"A fellowship, not "program", that sends people to professionals for psychological, spiritual, financial and emotional issues."

I agree there are so many issues that a newly sober person has, such as housing, medical, psychological that meeting would be productive instead of a waste of time. BTW, msafrany, becket claims you don't believe people need help with emotional issues. Yet another strawman constructed.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 11:26

I have not said msafrany does not believe people need help with emotional issues. My emphasis on the crack in his philosophy is that it appears he believes everyone's experience in pulling up from the condition of alcoholism should mirror his, and if it does not then it's unadulterated bullshit.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 06:04

I always see a decent amount of talk with xAers that seems really to be self-talk. It's aimed at themselves. I think the "it works" mantra is almost, for some of them, a reinforcing of their own beliefs. I can't tell you how many times I've seen members insist on saying it while not really telling me or other newcomers just what "it" is. That's just my opinion on it all, that if you're putting your faith in 12 steps to save you from yourself (essentially) you'd better keep reminding yourself that "it works".

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 11:28

Couldn't the same be said for chemotherapy or psychoanalysis? If you find it does not work, then you search for a plan B, right?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 12:40

1. Anecdotal sources presented as equitable to facts
2. People using Wikipedia articles without checking every single citation and passing that off as fact
3. People comparing chemotherapy to AA

How can anyone even do that with a straight face??? If chemotherapy doesn't work it usually means you are going to die. If AA doesn't work..what are the choices? Manning up and taking responsibility for the mistakes you make instead of blaming your "disease?"

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 14:31

The point of my post was not to compare chemo to AA but to suggest that a) if one believes and is hopeful that a treatment will work, the chance that the outcome of the treatment may be more positive than if that same person does not believe it will work; and b) that if the treatment does not work, an alternate treatment method - or no treatment - must be considered.

What do you FUCKING HATE about that reality? And did you even stop for one FUCKING second to consider what the Plan B to which I alluded might even be?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

steve cochrane's picture

steve cochrane

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 02:18

Just came across one more of your "uplifting" posts. And it even had the word REALITY in it!! WOW. Thanks for all that you do becket. You know becket you are so very good at holding the mirror up to everyone elses face but your own. At least I think that what you think you are doing. But . . . . shhhhh now let me let you in on a little secret. You are being punkd becket and you haven't caught on yet. Watching you flail about on this site is actualy quite fun. I guess I shouldn't enjoy it but I do. But don't let that stop you. Continue on with your 'filibuster'. I will feed you later. Wouldn't want you to run out of fuel now would we?

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 14:47

Who equates chemo to AA?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

disclosure

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 08:27

Just put a disclosure statement on AA;

“AA works for many people and can be a valuable part of substance abuse treatment” However side effects may include, thoughts of suicide, sexually transmitted disease, divorce, euphoric magical thinking, separation from old friends, deprivation, sloganism, guru worship, grandiosity, know-it-all-ism, false humility, closed minded open-mindedness, self righteous pompous prognostication, oral diarrhea.

Please consult your doctor before trying AA or any treatment option including just stopping the behavior.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 11:10

I smiled at that one. And it reminds me of the ambiguity and how inconsistent AA is. The bb says "We don't know much" yet they seemingly "know" everything.

Upon finishing the steps or getting some clean time and it's like achieving a professional degree:
Avo Gadno, A.A., Professional Alcoholic

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

disclosure

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 08:29

AA needs disclosure as to other options, the nature of the AA program, and safety issues.

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 11:18

I am not sure it needs to be tinkered with... Who says that AA is a financial program. I don't go to AA looking for a plumber, a finance guy, a mechanic or anything else. I went there for what it offered.

I think this is humorous at best. If you sleep with a guy that has VD and he gives it to you, that isn't AA. That's a guy that has VD giving you the gift that keeps on giving. If you take someone up on a stock tip he gave you at lunch and you make a million, you think he's great but AA didn't make you that million. If you have suicidal thoughts, such as Mary Kennedy who had 5 months sober in AA at the time of her death but who suffered from severe depression and pill usage... That isn't AA killing you. That's an overwhelming life and a Kennedy husband that is a jerk.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 13:15

LOL at the reasoning there.....it's OK to blame a Kennedy, just not AA. I'm not necessarily disagreeing either, just giggling a bit at it.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 13:39

How can you even giggle at it? She got 5 months of sobriety from AA and 16 years of crap from a Kennedy that overwhelmed her. Did people giggle at the suicide attempts of people here on the forum? It's a tragic event.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 14:17

Clara, I wasn't giggling about HER! Not at all! It was your comment that AA can't be even a contributing factor--but a Kennedy could. Of course I can laugh at that sort of comment! As can anyone who isn't on first name basis with the Kennedy family, which I am not. I don't know whether he "overwhelmed" her or not.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 14:32

AA is what contributed to her sobriety per the articles. Of course, I am not on first names with the Kennedy family, but the reports point to the breakdown in her marriage, the treatment of her husband and his new relationship as strong factors in her view on life.

I realize that no one on this board would ever attribute anything positive to AA even if the people around Mary did.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 15:35

Clara,
Seriously, if AA contributed to her sobriety in a positive way, wouldn't the end result be that she was still alive? I understand that there were many variables, her other problems, but going to AA did not save her life. I guess being in AA wasn't enough of a reason to keep her alive. If in fact AA had been a positive, isn't it possible it also was a negative? Maybe @ the meetings, realizing it had come to this, being there, the sadness of the people @ the meetings & the meetings themselves. I know that for me, the meetings just made me feel so hopeless, so sad, that it had come to this for me. When people would share & I listened I just would become so overwhelmed with hopelessness & despair. It just was such a negative environment & really sad.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 14:47

Did someone on this forum actually attempt suicide or just talk about suicide? In either case the recounting would be anecdotal and, therefore, inadmissible and immaterial under Ironic's regime.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 19:32

I didn't say that anecdotal evidence was "immaterial and "inadmissible," just that it isn't equal to actual facts.

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 19:15

Clara,

I take your point, and partly agree. But it then begs the question, what is AA? What can Aa take the creidt for/be blamed for?

You dismiss things that happen to individuals whilst attending AA as not being attributable to AA. Does that include recovery?

Kate

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

disclosure

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 12:07

I remember a sponsee of mine told me he was worried because he had unprotected sex with his new girlfrind and had not told her he had VD. I insisted that he tell her which he did. It all worked out OK, it turns out that she also had VD and was afraid to tell him.
I never had sex with an AA so I do not have a STD.
Thank You God!

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 12:16

Your logic is remiss. Hard to get an STD when you don't have sex. Just kidding, but your remark is stupid. I'd be a bit more concerned over what I could get out of an NA meeting, if you really want to go down that road.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 12:45

"I'd be a bit more concerned over what I could get out of an NA meeting, if you really want to go down that road."

Well, that is exactly why I say you think that alcoholics somehow have some moral high ground over addicts.

I've seen more ALCOHOLIC bums on the street than junkies, for sure. Many many many more empty cans and bottles than needles lying in the street.

You really think drug users have more promiscuous sex than alcoholics?? That is pretty fucking deluded, considering many opiate users can't even get hard/wet while high, and who wants to fuck when they are dopesick and puking?!?!?!

Damn you sound more sheltered than elementary schoolers I have met.

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 12:52

No, Ironic. My husband shared needles and contracted Hep C, but he didn't catch Hep C from sharing a bottle with an alcoholic. It has nothing to do with promiscuity or moral highroad, but lifestyle.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 12:58

Is about the only thing you can't get from unprotected (very often drunken) sex. They actually aren't even sure you can get it from normal sex anymore (period sex is probably a good way, though).

But HIV, you can get that. And gonorrhea, chlamydia, syphilis, etc. you cannot get from needles. HPV and herpes are non-curable, you can't get those from needles.

I really hope I don't have hep c. Haven't shared a needle in a very long time but I'm so worried last time I relapsed that I shared water, as I shared in my blog. I got tested at the clinic but I'm not waiting 5 hours for my results so I'm having the gyno test me next week. 2-6 week incubation period, I'm hoping 4 weeks is enough that after I'm tested (if I'm -) I will be at ease.

Most people don't know you can get it from just sharing water. My psychiatrist didn't even know that.

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 13:35

He knows that he didn't get it from sharing water, Ironic. His was directly related to shared needles.

Of course you can get all kinds of things from water. But the point is AA isn't going to give you those things, and it was a ridiculous statement to make. You get them from choices you make.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

patti

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 13:58

Having sex with an AA or NA is high risk behavior.

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 14:36

Which of course you didn't do for 35 years... LOL. Sex in general can be risky and I don't care how someone met the partner.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 19:37

I didn't say anything about your husband sharing water. You might want to read that again. I was talking about myself and just said that some people don't know that sharing water is enough.

So read what I said again and then you can tell me what exactly this "ridiculous" statement was.

You actually can't get a lot of things from water I don't think. But hep you sure can.

Brett

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 14:20

Is cureable Ironic, you take a swab & get the appropiate antibiotic.

Brett

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 14:37

Really? In my day, we thought it was incurable.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 14:43

"HERPES: Treatments and drugs

There's no cure for genital herpes. Treatment with prescription antiviral medications may:

Help sores heal sooner during an initial outbreak
Lessen the severity and duration of symptoms in recurrent outbreaks
Reduce the frequency of recurrence
Minimize the chance of transmitting the herpes virus to another
Antiviral medications used for genital herpes include:

Acyclovir (Zovirax)
Famciclovir (Famvir)
Valacyclovir (Valtrex)
Your doctor may recommend that you take the medicine only when you're experiencing symptoms of an outbreak. Or your doctor may recommend that you take a medicine daily, even when you're not experiencing any signs of an outbreak, to minimize your chances of recurrent outbreaks.

People who are experiencing severe complications may need to be hospitalized, so they can receive antiviral medication intravenously." ~ The Mayo Clinic (NOT ANECTDOTAL)

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Brett

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 21:01

keep searching the net, you'll find they can cure herpes, or you could go to a good doctor.

Brett

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