Scotland attempts to manipulate demand side economics of Alcoholism by controlling price
Scotland has just implemented a minimum price directive on alcohol sales as a form of "sin tax" on those that drink alcohol and is up for parliamentary approval. The principal is simple and is done in other industries that market potentially damaging products such as the tobacco industry. You raise the price of the goods being sold and less people are able to purchase the same quantity they normally do as a form of "pocketbook prohibition" in the hope that those of a more limited means will purchase less.
This is the start of the problems caused by prohibition, mainly thefts caused by people who crave these substances and steal to afford them and the resulting police actions and incarceration. The possibility of black market goods also increases through smuggling and manufacturing as can be seen in the Alcohol Prohibition in the US where big money was made by smuggling alcohol from other countries and the proliferation of alcohol stills where the product was produced for personal consumption and sale on the black market.
Scotland attempts to stem alcoholism; sets minimum alcohol price to reduce people from 'drinking themselves to death'
Published: Tuesday, May 15, 2012, 12:54 PMThe Scottish government set out a minimum price for alcohol Monday, saying too many Scots were "drinking themselves to death" and it was time to tackle the country's relationship with booze.
Alcohol should be sold at a minimum price of 50 pence (81 US cents, 63 euro cents) per unit, Health Secretary Nicola Sturgeon announced.
The proposal is expected to be passed in the Scottish parliament next week and could come into effect from next April.
"Cheap alcohol comes at a price and now is the time to tackle the toll that Scotland's unhealthy relationship with alcohol is taking on our society," Sturgeon said during a visit to patients with liver complaints at Glasgow Royal Infirmary.
"Too many Scots are drinking themselves to death. The problem affects people of all walks of life.
"As affordability has increased, alcohol-related hospital admissions have quadrupled, and it is shocking that half of our prisoners now say they were drunk when they committed the offence. It's time for this to stop.
"Introducing a minimum price per unit will enable us to tackle these problems, given the clear link between affordability and consumption."
In recent years, Scotland has made efforts to tackle its health problems. It was the first part of the United Kingdom to outlaw smoking in public places, doing so in March 2006.
Scottish lawmakers have banned discount deals such as two for the price of one on bottles of wine, restricted "irresponsible" drinks promotions and advertising around premises, and set a requirement for age verification.
Under the proposed law, a 70-centilitre bottle of 37.5 percent vodka would cost at least £13.13, while a 75cl bottle of 12.5 percent wine would be sold for no less than £4.69.
One unit in Britain is 10 millilitres of pure alcohol. A double pub measure of spirits, a pint of low-strength beer and a medium glass of wine each contain around two units.
IF YOU DRINK, DO IT IN MODERATION
Doctor Brian Keighley, chairman of the British Medical Association in Scotland, said alcohol-related illness caused one death "every three hours" and the spiralling healthcare costs were unsustainable in the current financial climate of austerity.
However, some said the measures would hand supermarkets a profits windfall and punish the lower classes.
Four 440ml cans of super-strength nine percent lager would increase to a minimum of £7.92.
Sam Bowman, head of research at the Adam Smith Institute economic think-tank, branded the scheme "a miserable, Victorian-era measure that explicitly targets the poor and the frugal, leaving the more expensive drinks of the middle classes untouched".
A minimum price of 40 pence per unit has been mooted for England and Wales.
Source: https://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/time-tackle-scotland-relat...
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Comments
DeConstructor
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 08:11
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If one believes the faulty 'disease' model as promoted by the AA
faith and the recovery industry this will be of no value.
I think it is actually a good idea, as I think abusing alcohol is always a choice, as is driving while drunk. The next question is- will people convicted of theft (which would be presumed to finance alcohol purchases) be forced into 'treatment' rehabs?
If people do drink less because of economic reasons, are they 'dry drunks' if they do not accept the AA gospel?
I would think promoting responsibility, and teaching people real facts about alcohol abuse rather than the evangical misinformation promoted by the AA faith and the recovery industry cartel would be afar more effective method -if the objective is truly to slow down overindulging.
The other glaring question to all this is where is the extra money going? Is this a tax, or are the extra profits simply going to the brewer/distillers/distributors? It all has the smell of a tax to be eventually paid to the recovery industry, as they continue to fabricate outrageous claims of their need and effectiveness. If that is the case, they are again using the power of the government to not only recruit fresh meat (which will eventually become recruiting evangelists themselves) but additionally using the power of the government to collect for the industry.
JR Harris
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 08:16
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It does not appear to be a tax, just a minimum price
The key sentence in the article is "However, some said the measures would hand supermarkets a profits windfall and punish the lower classes." While the parliamentary action has not been finalized and details are still sketchy, the Alcohol producers seem to be protected. This is the setting of a minimum price and through the balance of supply and demand less will be produced but the same profit will be made with less units produced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
mfc66uk
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 08:20
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Parts of Scotland are fairly
Parts of Scotland are fairly deprived and do have a big drinks and drug problem whilst other parts are beautiful areas and don't suffer from the inner city type problems. We have had a problem in the Uk with supermarkets offering cheap booze which fuels the problem. We also sell much stronger beer compared to the USA in general terms and drunkenness has become part of the culture in some areas. Our health service is overwhelmed at weekends by drunken casualties and all this needs to be addressed.
I do believe a price rise to stop the really cheap stuff being sold is a good idea but is obviously not going to solve the problem. It would be good if some tax went into suitable non faith based treatment but at the moment that is unlikely which is sad.
Until there are big social changes the problem will remain. There were a large number of Scots in London meetings when I went and most seemed to come from the inner city. I've always liked visiting Scotland but parts of it really need rebuilding and regeneration.
NoAAUK
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 10:52
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I tried to start MM and SMART
I tried to start MM and SMART meetings in Nottinghamshire and London. The SMART meeting I started at Turning Point, 2 Old Queen Street, Westminster was taken over by Jackie Bamford Professional Councellor (Turning Point) and Stepper (NA). When I say taken over, I mean taken over, I was phyisically prevented from entering the Turning Point Centre to facilitate my own meeting, having travelled down from Nottinghamshire to do so. At first SMART UK took the meeting off the SMART UK website and Banmford ran it as an un official SMART meeting. Now it is back on the website. When I enquired SMART UK said Bamford had done the SMART facilitator course. SMART UK peer led alternative to AA. Not at Turning Point Westmister, there SMART is a professional Stepper led alternative to.....hmmm
Don't know what SMART meetings are like north of the border but Frazier Ross the former SMART UK leader, and founder if I'm not mistaken, is no longer with SMART UK nor has been for some time.
Joke: When is a SMART group, not a SMART group? When its in London!
Yes I know its not a funny joke...... especially for Londoners who want a peer led alternative to 12 step
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
Clara
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 10:47
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Peer led? According to the
Peer led? According to the information I downloaded, you don't have to have taken the SMART course to facilitate a meeting, be an addict or alcoholic or anything but just interested.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 10:53
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Turning Point Centre blocked it, not SMART
The requirement "to have taken the SMART course to facilitate a meeting" appears to have been enforced by the Turning Point Centre, not SMART. As we all know, you don't have to be certified or anything to run an AA or NA meeting, just claim you are a member and your in, fake maters degrees and all. They never check this stuff in AA.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
btnben
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 10:54
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This may be of interest to people
So piss off with your derailing tactics Clara
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 10:58
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why be an ass, Ben?
It's a legitimate question.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
NoAAUK
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 12:05
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Shes not derailed anything
Shes not derailed anything even if she thinks she has.
When I was involved with SMART, Professional councellors where allowed to start SMART meetings with the intention of handing them over to service users, to eventually run them as peer led support groups. That was the point of the Alcohol Concern Pilot Scheme of about 3 or so years ago. This was funded by the NHS. at 6 Treatment Centre pilot sites
When I first reported that Jackie Bamford 12 stepper and professional councellor at Turning Point had physically (with the aid of a male colleague) denied me access to the SMART group which I had started and was currently facilitating at Turning Point, to Carol Hammond of SMART UK, Carol replied to me "they know they can't do that, they've been told its peer led, I'm gonna get Richard to deal with this and we will keep you informed. " or words to that effect. I never heard anymore from SMART UK. The meeting was taken of the meeting list on the website and Banford continued to run it as a pirate unofficial SMART group. I was still running an MM meeting there at the time and decided to leave SMART to SMART to sort.
The steppers at Turning Point wanted both me and MM out, I only stuck it out because the room was free and rent in London is astronomic. Anyway to cut a long story short after a pretty nasty argument with a Turning Point councellor about controlled drinking, in front of Service users, very unprofessional, MM members decided it was no longer possible to run MM meetings at that venue so we stopped. It was then I found out that Bamfords SMART meeting was now an official SMARTUK meeting on the website. When I queried this with Carol Hammond of SMART UK she now said that Bamford had done the facilitators course and that was all that mattered. Being an active stepper, physically hijacking and denying access to the non professional lay facilitator, running a pirate meeting for months were of no concern to SMART UK, she had done the facilitators course and that was all that mattered. Maybe things changed, maybe professionals can now run SMART meetings I don't know and don't care I never intend to promote or have any other involvement with SMART UK
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
NoAAUK
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 11:02
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Or a stepper control freak
Or a stepper control freak who has already failed to start a NA and AA meeting. Clara I don't agree with your cult membership and I think you have been duped, but you believe in stepism and I think you mean well.
Bamford has no beliefs, she spouts stepism, but just likes running things. You ought to see her organising the Turning Point service users to go up to the TV room to watch a film.....Today Turning Point.....Tomorrow ze vorld
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
NoAAUK
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 12:31
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HI again Carla, no you didn't
HI again Carla, no you didn't have to have completed the facilitators course to run a SMART meeting when I was involved. I actually stopped doing the course when I saw Tom Horvarth at a meeting telling some body to stop critising AA, when an AA member was there doing the full Stepper routine, even introducing her self Hi I'm whatever and I'm an Alcoholic. I thought that was disgusting and coicidentally it was the friday night before I went down to London and was phyically stopped going to the meeting, let alone facilitating it. That was me done with SMART. The previous meeting had been full of steppers no doubt invited to join by Bamford. I don't want to be any where near steppers, as far as I'm concerned you have plenty of your own meetings why come to ours.
Bamford is neither on your side of the fence nor our side, in my opinion she is beneath contempt, she just wants to run meetings and control people, she'll spout 12 step when its convenient and SMART when is convinient, I doubt she belives in either.
When I was running both MM and SMART in Mansfield, the cartaker of the venue was Cath of AA an friend of mine for my AA days. Cath was ok with both SMART and MM. She could have caused trouble when I got behind with the rent on a number of occasions but she was more than helpful. She wanted MM and SMART to succeed and genuinley wanted alternatives to flourish, she was a credit to herself
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
NoAAUK
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 12:36
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HI again Carla, no you didn't
HI again Carla, no you didn't have to have completed the facilitators course to run a SMART meeting when I was involved. I actually stopped doing the course when I saw a training video of Tom Horvarth SMART President, at a meeting telling some body to stop critising AA, when an AA member was there doing the full Stepper routine, even introducing her self Hi I'm whatever and I'm an Alcoholic. With friends like Tom Horvarth, who needs enemies. I thought that was disgusting and coicidentally it was the friday night before I went down to London and was phyically stopped going to the meeting, let alone facilitating it. That was me done with SMART. The previous meeting had been full of steppers no doubt invited to join by Bamford. I don't want to be any where near steppers, as far as I'm concerned you have plenty of your own meetings why come to ours.
Bamford is neither on your side of the fence nor our side, in my opinion she is beneath contempt, she just wants to run meetings and control people, she'll spout 12 step when its convenient and SMART when is convinient, I doubt she belives in either.
When I was running both MM and SMART in Mansfield, the cartaker of the venue was Cath of AA an friend of mine for my AA days. Cath was ok with both SMART and MM. She could have caused trouble when I got behind with the rent on a number of occasions but she was more than helpful. She wanted MM and SMART to succeed and genuinley wanted alternatives to flourish, she was a credit to herself.....and dare I say it .....AA
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
Clara
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 18:14
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Thank you for your candid
Thank you for your candid answers!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 10:53
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Funny you should mention that NoAA
I have been looking into starting a SMART meeting in Plymouth. They have meetings in Torquay and the facilitator(s) are employees of the local drug & alcohol treatment agency. They are both ex-AA and very good. I looked into going along the same route down here but it turns out that the local D&A service is inundated with steppers. I had a meeting with them and was immediately turned off. They seemed to think that SMART would be a great recruiting place for AA!!!! Their arrogance was unbelievable. I've not given up, but that route is closed as far as I'm concerned.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
NoAAUK
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 11:21
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I would no longer recomend
I would no longer recomend SMART UK to anyone. I personally believe it has been infiltrated by steppers. On the facilitator course Tom Horvarth SMART president forbids critisism of 12 step, he seems very concerned about offending steppers but not interested in those who have been damaged by stepism and need deprograming. Even the new leadership of MM, which on paper which is theoreticaly about as far away from stepism as you can get now frowns upon criticism of 12 step, which is considered as 'ranting' This is why I am no longer in either organisation. People in MM consider my outspokeness against AA as counter productive........in MM of all places???????? censorship of the truth about AA is almost universal in substance misuse treatment in my experience
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
btnben
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 12:05
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Thanks NoAA
The reason I got interested in SMART was because I do some voluntary work for a local homeless charity and they have just got the contract to run a new 50 bed homeless hostel in the town. Obviously, homelessness and substance abuse often go hand in hand and the director of the charity asked me about self-help groups other than AA. He (not an alcoholic at all) doesn't like the AA powerless philosophy and wants to start up something more relevant in the hostel.
I'm meeting with him at the end of this month about other things, but this will come up. Would it be OK to contact you with any question/queries etc - you've obviously got a lot more experience with SMART than I have.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
NoAAUK
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 12:11
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Yes contact me any time, my
Yes contact me any time, my experience of SMART is limited, and negative my organisation was MM, at the time I was travelling to London every saturday to run an MM meeting at the free venue. I thought I may as well make a day of it and get another London SMART meeting going as well. Ive been told that particular meeting is run as an AA meeting, it just repackaged or disguised AA. Anyone in London want to check it out?
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
DeConstructor
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 09:00
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I did see the supermarket windfall mention
but cannot help but think this is an attempt to get positioned for a recovery funding tax request in the future.
We have seen too many times how low this industry will stoop.
JR Harris
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 09:23
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A "recovery funding tax request in the future" is very possible
This minimum pricing will tend to reduce the number of "social" heavy drinkers in the lower financial brackets, but it will cause the real hard drinkers in those brackets such as Jim English of Dundalk (Ireland) to do whatever it takes to survive.
Source: http://www.argus.ie/news/defendant-who-pleaded-guilty-to-theft-from-bank...
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
disclosure
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 10:09
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Taxoholism
Could it be that a little drink-e-poo is an effective way for the Scots to cope with unfair taxation in all areas of their lives? Perhaps this tax is more in tune with "the company store" mentality of the great depression. Scotland= "Gateway To Servitude"???
Could it be that the Scotland is home to the greatest drink of all time; scotch?
genejoe
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 15:54
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It seems that the people who
It seems that the people who respond to Clara are doing more to troll than Clara. I still wonder if they are all the same person.
"Scotland attempts to stem alcoholism; sets minimum alcohol price to reduce people from 'drinking themselves to death"
No government has ever cared enough about the people to truly help them. Just as in the usa, taxing alcohol is all about raising tax revenue and imposing even more control on people. It has nothing to do with reducing alcoholism.
genejoe
The Invitation, by Oriah Mountain Dreamer
NoAAUK
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 16:25
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I'm not Clara and I'm not
I'm not Clara and I'm not really interested in what steppers have to say on this Forum. I'm interested in any ideas that can possilbly help to hasten the end of this stepper thing. Steppers or Trolls or what ever you want to call them, can't really achieve anything on this website but they are still messing peoples lives up badly outside of this site. I'm interested in anything that can be done to stop them out in the world. I dont give a monkeys about arguing with them on a blog
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
mfc66uk
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 15:55
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I agree that taxation is not
I agree that taxation is not a complete solution and what JR says is right that sadly some people will commit crimes to fund their habit but that happens anyway at the moment. I do feel that making alcohol more expensive will have an effect on the young who are very at risk by getting into the binge culture. The problem with binge drinking in the UK is different in some ways to the USA and is getting worse and worse and needs to be stopped. It was this sort of behaviour that started my problems but it is much wider spread than in my day. It's a no win situation and somebody will suffer whatever is done but at least they are trying something. People need proper education and proper care not some cobbled together faith healing or amateur solution.
Unhinged
Thu, 05/17/2012 - 18:08
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Scotland.
Posts about my lovely country. How nice.
Yes Scotland is facing minimum charges on alcohol. Will it reduce alcohol consumption in Scotland? I don't think so. Problem drinkers (of which there are many in Scotland it seems) will still get their "fix" regardless of the price of booze. How will the Scots pay for the price hike? At the expense of other needs like food, clothes etc. I know guys that will sit at home in the dark with no heating because they can't afford the electricity bill. They still get their beer, cider, whiskey and vodka.
Scotland has a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol. Drinking alcohol is an integral part of Scottish culture. Scots seem to like a drink. We drink 25% more than the English and Welsh and that gap seems to be widening. Price hikes wont change that I don't think. Why do Scots drink so much? There's probably a multitude of reasons why. For a start, it's legal to buy alcohol in Scotland at age 18. For our American cousins it's 21 right? Could that be one reason I wonder? Poverty is another possible reason. One million Scots (population 5.2 million) are living in abject poverty. People drink alcohol to escape their dreary, shitty, hopeless, mundane lives. Do Scots drink so much because quite simply they love it? (like me) I wonder if Scots are genetically predisposed to alcoholism? Who knows? I don't know.
Something needs to be done for sure. The NHS is on it's knees due to our love affair with alcohol. Casualty departements are jam packed at the weekends with piss heads and victims of their violence. Half of our crooks were under the influence when commiting their crimes.
What can be done? Who knows but price hikes are not the answer. The supermarkets are rubbing their hands.
Give out free hash!
NoAAUK
Fri, 05/18/2012 - 15:56
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"Casualty departements are
"Casualty departements are jam packed at the weekends with piss heads and victims of their violence"
Yes, its more or less the same south of the border
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oOoAIANWCY
used to go in that pub a lot. Thats a quiet night it livens up in the afternoon on match days if Nottingham Forest are at home.
Why does the whole UK have a drinking problem, who knows its probably just a cultural thing. i just like drinking same as you........it can be very hard to stop before the negatives start to kick in, and by then you've already lost your inhibitions and don't give a dam
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
disclosure
Fri, 05/18/2012 - 07:58
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Liberal US states
California and New York are notorious for passing voter elected taxes while claiming that they will solve social problems. I hear New York tobacco taxes have a pack of Marlboro up about $10.00. I hate to hear about "recovery tax" in any context. Right now we have a tobacco tax on the ballot in California that will raise taxes by $1 a pack for cancer research. California voted in proposition 36 which allows non violent criminals to get probation and treatment instead of jail, I imagine the next obvious step would be to tax substances so that everyone who consumes pays the bill. The problem with all this social taxation is that we don't see the results at the street level. It is as if the money goes straight into someone’s pocket.
Ironic
Fri, 05/18/2012 - 08:12
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Unhinged
I know you were joking about the hash, but I think you've stumbled across a serious point.
Marijuana substitution WORKS FOR SOME PEOPLE!! Nothing works for everyone but I'm willing to bet marijuana maintenance has higher than a 5% success rate. It sure does amongst the people I know but I admit that is a rather small selection from the US, mostly close to my age. I mean, my mom smokes weed and very rarely drinks (she keeps 2-3 bottles of wine for her and her bf to enjoy and it takes them over a month to drink three bottles!!) and I definitely saw as a child the difference between her behavior and my father's during football season (he drinks daily now).
I believe it is the nation healer.
Unhinged
Fri, 05/18/2012 - 09:29
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Ironic
If Scotland became a nation of hash smokers instead of drinkers, there would be a marked reduction in crime rates. Alcohol related violence and crime is a major problem in my city.
The NHS would save a packet too.
Legalise hash!
http://www.clear-uk.org/