Codswallop

BB Kate's picture
Submitted by BB Kate on Thu, 05/10/2012 - 20:12

"The important thing is not how you define a Higher Power. The important thing is that you don't consider yourself to be your own Higher Power, because your own best thinking found your bottom for you."

I have three things to say about this oft-spouted AA mantra.

1. I always thought this type of comment strange. Even if AA uses the phrase "God, as we understand him", it doesn't change the fact that they are still talking about God. The reason it is not important how you define a higher power is because God is God, regardless of your understanding! The mental construct is irrelevant.

BUt I'm not sure that AA members really get this point. "God as you understand him" doesn't mean "just pick any object, concept or whimsy and call it God". So many AA members seem to think they can just use "God" to mean anything, like language has no meaning at all!

That's not to say they prescribe the Abrahamic God, it could be the THor or Zeus, but they ARE talking about a GOD!!! Why is this so difficult for them to understand????

2. Why do AAs tend to equate a lack of belief in a God/HP with thinking yourself to be your own Higher Power? I don't believe in God, but i certainly don't think of myself as a HP. I just believe that the one who stopped me drinking was me (strange as that is to believe). What a load of rubbish!!!!

3. It was not my best thinking that found my bottom for me. My best thinking got me a degree even though i spent more time in the bar that at lectures. What has trouble with the booze got to do with my best thinking? For the life of me, i cant comprehend why AA members woudl conclude my drinking to be a result of my best thinking! Why couldn't it have been my worst thinking, or no thinknig at all????

Comments

patti

Thu, 05/10/2012 - 20:55

BB Kate,
Exactly, that one always made me feel dizzy, cause it just made/makes no sense @ all.

patti

Orange's picture

Orange

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 11:35

Yes, all that I can do is agree.

And I'll add, my besting thinking got me to quit drinking, not drink too much for too long.

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 16:42

Hear Hear!

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

The Professor

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 12:30

Covering all three of your excellent points, an old timer revered by many in the fellowship used to boast that the first thing he would say to any new sponsee was

"There are only two things you need to know...1. There is a God and 2.You're not it!

Says it all really!

Lesson over!

humanspirit

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 12:41

Absolutely. And why anyone who seeks help with an addiction problem should be accused of thinking they are God is beyond me. Does becoming addicted to a chemical substance mean that you think you are God? Does becoming addicted to a chemical substance stem from a non-belief in God? Do only atheists get addicted to alcohol or drugs? Don't think so.

The 12 step religion and culture is such a twisted one, that heaps huge irrelevant piles of shit on genuine people who are making an effort to help themselves. With pretty dismal results for most of them.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 21:54

hs, I've always had a big problem with that one, myself. There was nothing more absurd than watching employee after employee at the rehab I was at give lectures (endless, droning lectures....) about how we were all there due to our massive egos and our thoughts that we were all (in some way) God. I've never seen anything more surreal than pointing out at a group of 50 people who could barely stop shaking enough to even comb our hair, people who were breaking down crying outside the lecture room because they felt so utterly worthless, and saying we were nothing but egomaniacs. People many of whom were in various states of being kicked out by family and friends and weren't even sure of our ability to live another 30 days--but thinking we were perfect little gods. I've seen it in scores of meetings as well, defeated looking people swearing that their problems were due to their oversized egos while showing no sense of self-worth at all. It would be funny if it weren't so very sad.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Brett

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 13:01

your best soup got you here.
6 bloody beer binge lmao

Brett

patti

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 22:10

Brett, LOL, this soup thing & the thread that followed was hilarious! Can't stop lmao when I read it.

patti

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 13:30

Excellent points Kate. In fact the slogan "my best thinking got me here" was one of the first warning signs. But I was so new in the program, I didn't realize it was a slogan. I just thought it was some poor guy being down on himself and that he was in real need of self-esteem. And like you, I thought that drinking myself almost to death was the worst thinking I'd ever had. Really, of all the slogans, I think it's one of the worst slogans, right up there with "my head's a bad neighborhood, I can't go in there alone."

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 16:45

In my area it's "my mind is like a hanunted house"...

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 16:50

Guilt trip. Putting that crap into a person's head when they are sick and already struggles is cruel. It reminds me of Catholic School. Well, of course it does! I wouldn't be surprised that a high % of addicts began using substances because of a faulty religious foundation. Then, whooops, you end up in a place that does the same thing to you. Messing with a persons head, giving them more stress than they can handle.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Sue

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 20:33

Definitely backwards;
My worst thinking got me there. My best thinking gave me the strength to Leave AA.

patti

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 22:12

sue, exactly right.

patti

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 21:55

Sue, you didn't just smile and nod knowingly at that slogan? Yeah, me neither.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 21:56

Why did you people simply not back away from the table when God was mentioned? Were you totally unaware of your relationships - or non, un, or anti-relationships with a creator? I have nothing against atheism or agnosticism, truly; I just have such a hard time understanding why you didn't just book when you heard God was part of the AA package.

Anyone?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

The Professor

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 02:41

Nobody goes into AA a well bunny. I was a broken man when I first entered AA. Years of alcoholic abuse had destroyed me mentally and physically. It takes time to get well again. When my body and mind started to get well, I saw AA for what it was. Then I left!!!

Lesson over!

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 10:15

I am always surprised, too. It takes all of 30 seconds to realize that when you step into a room, and most of thes people on this forum appear to have gone to rehab. Didn't they hear it there?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 16:53

I wasn't an atheist at the time. I was agnostic, and trusted those who said to trust them, and that if i did what they did i would have what they have (sobriety). I assumed that if i "acted as if" i believed in God, and " took action", that i would eventually "come to believe" in a God and know his will for me. I saw sober people and wanted to be sober too. I was "willing to go to any lengths" - until i realised the crap they were talking was crap, and had nothing to do with getting sober.

I also didn't go to rehab. I did see God in the steps, but had always been open-minded with regards religion. As far as AA went, i did everything i was told - I believed that i needed to be entirely willing to get sober, so i was.

Also, as Sue says, if a newcomer says they are atheist or agnostic, they are usually told that AA accommodates all types, and "the group" or a doorknob (i was told a chair leg) can be a HP.

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

Sue

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 22:48

Personally, that was the least of my problems with AA. However, very confusing to a member who is told that it's perfectly acceptable to be a non believer and then subject to the chanting of the Lords Prayer at the end of most meetings. A christian prayer based on the belief in one God only. Also part of the BB is written to suit the non believer. It's only important that they choose a higher power (a god of their understanding). Confusion and contradiction's were a huge part of my problem with AA.

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 18:42

So didja leave and never go back, Sue?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 16:57

It's not that simple. By the time i saw contradictions etc, i was firmly of the belief that my mind was the problem, and that the disease wanted me to question AA so that i would leave the recovery environment and drink again. I no longer trusted my own mind. I was told not to think but take action.

I was also told to stick with the winner/stay in the centre of AA. If i wanted to do that, i needed to accept the words of oldtimers and not question the Big Book.

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

gigi

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 17:09

Ditto. That is exactly the predicament I found myself in.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 17:29

Kate, you hit the nail on the head.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:47

Was just gonna say that c&e.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 18:43

So didja leave and never go back, Sue?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:06

Becket, you have stated that you have not attended AA meetings for what, 22 years?

Why did you leave AA becket?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 06:53

Sue, Oddly enough there is a method to Becket's madness as a troll. She can bring up good points and will question everyone/anyone on it. Upon commenting though, regardless of how detailed or heartfelt the answer , she will mock and berate you. This from the same person that angrily suggests that we all treat her, and any other AA troll that is equally abusive, with dignity and kindness. I've noticed that despite anyone's effort to try and bring a truce back into discussions, she generalizes all non AA contributor's to the forum, treating everyone with hostility and degrades them.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Sue

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 23:57

Funny thing is I think he is the one who takes pot shots at others. Typical troll behavior in many ways; yet some have more serious personality disorders and are sicker than others.

Sue

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 00:08

I keep saying "he". Ok, he/she whatever. Do we really know.

dolson's picture

dolson

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 10:04

marietta becket is a misogynistic gender confused old man. He sits at his computer trolling while wearing boxer shorts and a wife beater tee shirt. His shirt is stained orange as a result of wiping his hands on it, while he eats Cheezies and drinks Schlitz beer.

You can count on his endless trolling, as he has neither a life nor job. Perhaps he will wish retarded children on you, and accuse you of beating them. He will usually attempt insult your penis size. He likes talking about shit and penises.

So enjoy the show.

marietta = becket = clara

Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 18:45

Sue, please disregard dolson - he has some sort of scatological fixation he seems unable to shake. I am a 63-year-old woman, sober since 1980.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 10:19

Is the female version of the divine presence of God or some such. It's pretty prevelant in the Kabbalah, so I understand.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Brett

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:51

I prefer to think of it as a thing, a thing from outerspace, prehaps uranus

Brett

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:55

"prehaps" Canis Majoris.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 10:16

I don't think it has to be, Sue. I know agnostics and atheists alike that benefitted from the program.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Unhinged

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 10:36

"I know agnostics and atheists alike that benefitted from the program."

How is this possible without the belief of a higher power? Please explain how they benefited.

Sue

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 14:43

Clara, I got the impression that you may be assuming that I am agnostic or atheist. I was speaking from experience in general terms about my opinion of the religious aspect of the program. I never stated what my beliefs were. Just wanted to clear that up for you and becket. Actually, I talked about praying when I was severely depressed while still in AA.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 20:45

I am not assuming anything about you, Sue. Just an observation that I knew atheist and agnostics that benefited from the program, as well as Christians.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Sue

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 21:11

Ah, I just was puzzled why you would even mention my name when making your point. Ok, seemed odd.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 21:14

Because you were mentioning God, Sue. I know many people in AA that are atheist or agnostic and still found the program to be beneficial.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 21:28

What part of that 5% are atheist or agnostic that find it beneficial that are court mandated and pretty much forced to say they believe or go to jail? I think you will find a very small percentage.

Was Clancy mandated to go to AA due to probation? Did Clancy use the "AA get out of jail free card?"

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Sue

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 21:32

Still makes no sense; the mention of my name. Not important anymore. I was also asked by becket; "if I had reconciled the God thing." His comment made no sense either. Dont know what put that idea in his head. I let that go but after seeing your comment, I thought would address it.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 21:54

Sue, I was responding to your post. I really can't explain it any better than that. "So God is part of the package..."

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 18:46

Sue, did you realize any lessening of your depressive symptoms with prayer?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 17:04

Clara, that is part of the problem. One AA-er (Becket) says AA is about God and questions why atheists/agonostics stay. But others (such as yourself) say atheists/agnostic can benefit from AA.

This is no doubt very confusing for the newcomer. I think your stance is more common in AA, and in my case i responded to such comments. But Becket sees it as very black and white. Desperate newcomers may very well give it a decent go, only to later realise it is not for them.

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 18:48

Correction: I don't say AA is about God, BB Kate. I say God has a place for those who believe and there are some who are non-believers or skeptics who can still benefit from aspects of the program. Please don't speak for me unless you can get it right. Thanks.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 18:54

Actually, I think Becket's thinking is in many respects the opposite of black and white. She might have a Catholic background, but she has an Eastern way of thinking.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:25

I wholeheartedly disagree. She's the most black and white thinking person I've ever encountered.
And I don't see what's Eastern about her way of thinking other than she's made a reference to Buddhism.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:31

Isn't this post funny, Pennywise?!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:36

We've had quite a few in depth conversations. Becket, would you say your thinking is Eastern in some ways?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pages