Codswallop

BB Kate's picture
Submitted by BB Kate on Thu, 05/10/2012 - 20:12

"The important thing is not how you define a Higher Power. The important thing is that you don't consider yourself to be your own Higher Power, because your own best thinking found your bottom for you."

I have three things to say about this oft-spouted AA mantra.

1. I always thought this type of comment strange. Even if AA uses the phrase "God, as we understand him", it doesn't change the fact that they are still talking about God. The reason it is not important how you define a higher power is because God is God, regardless of your understanding! The mental construct is irrelevant.

BUt I'm not sure that AA members really get this point. "God as you understand him" doesn't mean "just pick any object, concept or whimsy and call it God". So many AA members seem to think they can just use "God" to mean anything, like language has no meaning at all!

That's not to say they prescribe the Abrahamic God, it could be the THor or Zeus, but they ARE talking about a GOD!!! Why is this so difficult for them to understand????

2. Why do AAs tend to equate a lack of belief in a God/HP with thinking yourself to be your own Higher Power? I don't believe in God, but i certainly don't think of myself as a HP. I just believe that the one who stopped me drinking was me (strange as that is to believe). What a load of rubbish!!!!

3. It was not my best thinking that found my bottom for me. My best thinking got me a degree even though i spent more time in the bar that at lectures. What has trouble with the booze got to do with my best thinking? For the life of me, i cant comprehend why AA members woudl conclude my drinking to be a result of my best thinking! Why couldn't it have been my worst thinking, or no thinknig at all????

Comments

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 20:05

The Shroud has been tested for blood type. As has the Sudarium of Oviedo. I do believe that they actually matched. FREAKY, eh?!?!?

Edit: yeah, they did match. AB was the type. I really love sindonology.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 20:12

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarium_of_Oviedo

I tuned these catlix out when I was 7. I also tuned out AA in my first mandated meeting.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 20:19

Yeah, LFOD. They're both owned by The Church. I'm not sure you need to be Catholic or even a Christian to find the study of these relics rather fascinating, though. Well, that holds true for me, at least. Barrie Schwortz's site is the oldest and most comprehensive online for this though, http://shroud.com/ That's worth a visit for the images available alone.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:45

Congratulations. Bordering on contempt prior to investigation, considering the age of 7 is considered to be the age of reason. How much reasoning is a seven-year-old capable of? How sophisticated are his powers of examination and analysis?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:42

Penny, before they switched to non-wheat wafers at my old church, I knew a girl who had a reaction to one, and that was her comment essentially on this, "Well, that kind of blows that transubstantiation business out of the water".

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:53

Was that a Catholic church?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:54

Roman Catholic. Yes it was. Well, still is.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:56

That's hilarious.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 20:21

One of the priests had a mild form of celiac disease though, and wasn't bothered by the wafers, but still got them changed. Probably out of fear that most of the parishioners looked terrified every time he had to gulp down the crumbs during Mass.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:07

Also, what about the allergy of the body Silkworth preaches about in the BB? Would a Catholic with a severe peanut allergy be OK if he thought the peanuts he was eating were Jesus' kidney stones?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:27

Good question. If the belief was strong enough he might not have as exaggerated a reaction to them. I just saw a movie with Jeff Bridges in it where this was the premise: if he believed he was immune, he was immune; once the belief faltered, his immunity dissolved. Yes, this was just a movie, but it shows I'm not the only one thinking about the power of suggestion. You guys are all over the power of suggestion and how vulnerable people are to the dogma of AA. Why would a Catholic not be vulnerable to the dogma of the Church?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:32

Kinda like those hillbillys who get bit by rattlesnakes on purpose as part of church service.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:33

Yeah, bless their hillbilly hearts.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:11

Careful there becket. You're getting dangerously close to arguing against the disease model.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:16

Becker did say she thinks the jury is out on the disease model.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:18

I agree as of today.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:22

Not until some very compelling evidence was presented. Until then she fought tooth and nail.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:29

You are just fucking wrong, causeandeffect. I have always said we don't know for sure about the disease model. Jesus Christ's kidneys, quit dripping your vitriol all over me. I just got out of the shower.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:38

I've seen you viciously attack people for believing alcoholism is not a disease. You've done nothing but defend the disease model until you were informed that the disease model leads to relapse. Then you promptly changed your tune (without admitting you were wrong, of course)

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:51

You have me confused with Clara. Or do you think I am Clara?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:55

I do not think that the disease model has to lead to relapse.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 20:01

It's been proven in a study, clara. The more people believed in the disease model, the more likely they were to relapse.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:27

Thanks. And the name is becket.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:28

I know, sorry. Posting from I-pad.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:29

Sittin on the dock of a meeting, Pennywise?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:31

Nah, in bed.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:34

who really knows.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:47

becket knows. Marietta knows. billybudd knows.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:43

Oh, and the shadow knows.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 20:45

I don't participate myself and haven’t in ages.

What of the bad Catholic and alcoholic that doesn't hold true their belief of the transubstantiation?

Good explanation btw.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:57

I'd guess the "bad Catholic and alcoholic" would eventually fall away from the practice of going to Mass. I did, and I have Catholic friends who are drunks and addicts who did the same. Those who even go to Mass may not have been to confession in years and may feel unworthy to partake of the Eucharist. Those who go to Communion may elect not to drink from the chalice. A Catholic in recovery who disbelieves in transubstantiation, goes to communion and drinks the wine may not hold his recovery in very high esteem. Do they get triggered? Who knows? Maybe some do but deny themselves the luxury of a slip; maybe they offer that anxiety up to their God as a sacrifice. Perhaps others do not concern themselves with a small sip or feel they can now drink in moderation. One sip from a chalice can certainly be considered moderation. But any drunks who are in recovery - the ones that I know, anyway - simply would not tempt fate or the boogeyman or the disease or their own failing resolve. Any way I look at it, drinking at all once removed from drinking every moment of every day is a bad idea.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 20:20

A lot of Catholic services don't use real wine. It's more like grape juice. I've seen some surprised looks when it was alcoholic.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Sue

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 23:23

However, I will tell you that it took a few times to wise up. I believe that one should never say never but I think it's pretty damned safe to say; I highly doubt that I would return to AA in this life time.

patti

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 23:28

the other miracle is that AA & it's fraud's are still around & that governments support & sentence new book buyers to it. read somewhere recently of the 2 million worldwide AA members, 60% were sentenced to attend, were not there voluntarily, may have bookmarked the article. only 800 thousand are there working/volunteering for free & recruiting new members & torturing the coerced & sentenced, who get stuck listening to them over & over, yuck. yeah, rehab has been big bucks & a golden goose for a long time, big earner & a big strain on health insurance companies. the more the health insurance companies get squeezed the less they will pay for & rehab industry going be taking a big hit in getting paid. Wondering whether or not God will help the rehab's if they turn their will's over & admit they are powerless & can't get paid.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 23:37

"read somewhere recently" doesn't cut it. If you're going to quote statistics you need to either provide a link or the title of the document which you're citing. Otherwise, we are looking at bullshit, innuendo, skewed opinion. Dig?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

dolson's picture

dolson

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 10:09

Ah, much like you accepting your fake Grammy Award, or earning a phony Master's Degree?

Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 19:30

??

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 23:38

I was just reading (recent news article) that some ins companies are refusing to pay for alcohol related injuries. That being noted, hospitals are not testing all their emergency patients for alcohol/drug levels in their blood (they don’t want to get stiffed if the patient is under the influence). I don't understand all the legalities of it, but I imagine that if ins companies are not willing to pay for rehab it could spark big changes. What will addicts do? I don't know. Maybe ins will still pay for detox though and send them out with a recommendation to take the steps rather than the elevator.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 05/13/2012 - 20:43

But, Avo, many people are of the opinion that rehabs don't work. If they don't, why should ins continue to pay for it?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 18:40

Insurance companies are getting a bit too picky about everything these days, though. They're finding ways out of paying for anything. It's probably just my opinion here, but I'd like to see them so heavily regulated that they can't keep getting out of paying for injuries, etc. Or denying coverage for preexisting conditions. All of it. (Sorry, the insurance industry makes me more angry than the recovery industry. One trumps the other in this case;)

I'd like to see that article, though.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 20:38

Patti, what is very startling to me is that Ins. Co.'s will pay for repeated rehabs. Sending anyone to rehab that doesn't want to get clean is a complete waste. They may say they want to because it's preferable to jail.

Would a cancer patient that didn't want treatment but was forced to adhere not respond to the chemo?

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

patti

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 09:59

Yeah the rehab mills know how to work the insurance companies to get payment. I'm not sure about the insurance industry, they are becoming more & more restrictive on what they will cover & pay, I would think rehab is going to take a hit. I do know rehab has made & is making people very wealthy & is unethical in a lot of situations, again who cares what goes in a rehab, not too many people. It is a complete waste of money to send someone for rehab that doesn't care or want to get clean. A cancer patient has the right to refuse treatment, it's a solid medical disease & patients have advocates & rights. Alcohol & drug addiction are murky, but addicts are battered & weak & are easy to manipulate & force. If the choice is jail or rehab, I actually know a young man, he is mentally ill, he gets in a lot of trouble, he abuses drugs & alcohol. Sometimes he tries to get better, sometimes he just doesn't care, for years he has avoided taking Lithium, it is the last medicine, he has been on so many, many meds & they have not helped. The last time he was in trouble legally, was before a judge, had advised his attorney he would rather go to jail, than rehab again. This poor kid is so burnt out by rehab, but he was sentenced to rehab again. It's hard to admit a situation is hopeless, but this kid hasn't been able to get better, @ this point the only hope left seems to be trying Lithium. I think there is a good chance that any person forced to do anything including chemo has less of a chance of a positive outcome than a person who really wants to try something. This kid may not do well on Lithium due to his reservations, he really has fought tooth & nail to not take it, he really does not want to be on this medicine. I think for @ least some rehabs the golden goose of unlimited insurance funds, at least in the U.S. is getting choked.

patti

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:09

Lithium is used in the treatment of some depressions and mania. It is a mild application and is generally paired with an anti-depressant. Why does this young man not want to take Lithium? Does he prefer no hope to some hope?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_pharmacology

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

gigi

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:29

Maybe he's tired of taking medication after medication that haven't helped. Maybe he's scared. Maybe the side effects would be worse than what he already suffers. Who knows. None of my business really. Drugs perscribed by docs can be scary.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 23:28

So I don't get to ask you any questions about your grasp of the program? Or if you ever worked the steps? Or if you reconciled the God thing?

Are you planning to shoot from behind a Hollywood boulder? Do you think that's good protection with a couple of savvy Indians up above? In other words, you get to take pot shots at me but because I know nothing about whether you genuinely tried to work the program I don't get to respond as an informed poster?

OK. Let's do that.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 23:36

The only thing AA teaches is how to use slogans and innuendo to boost sales for AAWS literature a Hazelden trained rehabs. AA isn't a quit drinking cult, it is a "lets boost profits for AAWS and and Hazelden cult" and have them publicly proclaim how "grateful" they are as a confession cult in denial.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 23:38

Ah, so then you really DO despise AA. Thanks for clearing that up.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 23:42

AA is a fellowship of men and women, not BIG CORPORATIONS paying people BIG BUCKS to chant Bill Wilson. Come back to reality, you are being used by the Recovery Industry to make money for a few top tier con men pushing faith healing.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 17:17

You are insane.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Sue

Fri, 05/11/2012 - 23:49

Let's just say; I was around AA long enough, interacted with true believers more than enough; to know circular talk when I see it. Convincing you of my vast knowledge is not important to me and is not required to negatively comment about AA.

During my last deep depression as a result of AA; I talked to God a lot. He answered my prayers.

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