Anyone Ever Think About Suicide?

Do any of you really just hate life either way? My life isn't manageable when I'm high, and no matter how long I kick dope for, it doesn't get better. High was just always something I did instead of suicide. Anyone ever think about the most painless way to go? I'd think it would be an overdose. It would cost a hell of a lot of money for me to overdose on anything, that's for sure. Besides, if I was high I wouldnt want to kill myself until it was gone. I graduated, and I feel even worse. I've got an appointment at 1:30 for a hepatitis screening. I have a little money but no proof of income. I hope they'll see me. My girlfriend has lupus, so if I have hep..well, it would have to end, huh?

Comments

That's not necessarily "substitution" in the sense of using a substance, some people are using/drinking in the first place to self-medicate another issue, be it emotional or physical. If they suffer from extreme anxiety, and a doctor prescribes them valium and believes that to be a valid medical treatment, who are AAs to say that that's "substitution"? Any of them/you? xA calls this substitution because it has no solution to these actual problems. There's no fix either way for PAWS, so people end up choosing sub or done (not meth, please, meth refers to a different drug these days than methadone. You can learn this from television, you don't even need to be all "street" to get that.) People don't go on done or sub just to substitute or "trade addictions", they do this to try and treat PAWS, which no amount of "fellowshipping" is going to ever be able to address.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen
Pennywise's picture

Ok then, in your mystical world, what does it mean to abstain from alcohol? In the real world it means not consuming any alcohol. Putting fortified wine in soup and then ingesting it is consuming alcohol, so in the real world a person who does that is not abstaining. But you live in some weird world where words take on whole new meanings, so it's quite difficult to have a normal debate with you. Anyway, in Claraland, what exactly does it mean to abstain from something? If I abstain from beating my wife, can I at least slap her with an open hand?
"One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface." ~ Bill Wilson

Oddly enough, we weren't discussing anything 12 step on this thread until you brought it up, Clara. But Massive commenting on your slogan-bombing of a suicide thread is blameworthy? Okie dokey. Have fun with that.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

I agree with you Persephone. Neither group is equipped to help anyone achieve/maintain sobriety and neither group supports the use of any mind altering substances regardless of the situation. The awful phrase: "At least he died sober" explains that stance more than anything I can say. It would be such a relief to be to able to say, "Well at least he's alive!". We can also change the wording to fit other situations. Like, at least he's not suffering. Whether it be physical or emotional, I oppose people or groups try and instill a belief that "sobriety" is more important than living a life that isn't agonizing. Actually, "just for today" implies that we search for what can comfort us right now. I personally would choose suffering a few days, or perhaps a month (a few?) if in exchange I'd find peace in the end. My big problem was never finding it after years.

Pro Empowerment!

Clara's picture

PIE, I have always said that medical treatment differs from self medicating. But the guy that is using valium to detox from alcohol only needs that for a finite period of time. If he is still using a year later, the reasons for it have changed. I was pretty specific. I know people that takes anti-anxiety drugs under medical supervision and that's fine. As for meth and the others, the case in point were people that were going to the clinic and had been for years, but then use other things on the side. Is the goal to ever be without it? I guess I still feel that if I need to be buzzed to deal with life, what about life needs to be changed? What about me needs to be changed?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I don't see that it differs all that much, to be honest. Some people are drowning out something horrible that has happened to them and some are self-medicating the anxiety they have either naturally or due to some trauma. In either case they're not getting it worked through, nor are they usually with just xA, either, which doesn't usually think you should have to work through things, just work the steps and keep it simple, stupid. You don't keep things simple for a complex set of problems. Again, it's not "meth" when you're referring to methadone. Just to be clear. I get your point, but you're the one saying that "addictions aren't all the same", and given that view, you also cannot be expected to understand PAWS, especially as it relates to opiate use. Also, given that view, and the admission that your drinking was never even severe enough for you to get the shakes when quitting, why are you weighing in on the entire debate of opiate replacement therapy in the first place? I'm not saying that to be rude, but you do keep pushing the point while both refusing to show empathy for someone in that situation and while having never been in that place yourself. Which I find very odd. Maybe things do need to be changed for some people, but I doubt very much that anyone on this board has the qualifications to make that sort of call about someone else's medical treatment, which is exactly what opiate replacement therapy is. Unless you take the AA view that pharmacists are dealers, yada yada yada. I don't care if you've been through it or are just trained and somewhat empathetic, I don't think anyone has cause to be discussing opiate replacement as treatment unless they understand PAWS. PERIOD.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

Avo, thank you. And yeah, I always thought the almost religious belief in placing "sobriety" above anything else was a tad bit on the creepy side. Why should people suffer like that just to achieve sobriety on someone else's terms, if it's not their own definition? Either help people through it and find them an appropriate treatment or STFU is my personal opinion, though I rarely share it. I voiced this once (more recently) at NA, and actually got one person to agree, who of course sloganed it down to "opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one", but did concede my point nevertheless.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen
becket's picture

Alcohol Burn-off Chart Preparation Method and Percent Retained alcohol added to boiling liquid & removed from heat: 85% alcohol flamed: 75% no heat, stored overnight: 70% baked, 25 minutes, alcohol not stirred into mixture: 45% Baked/simmered dishes with alcohol stirred into mixture: 15 minutes cooking time: 40% 30 minutes cooking time: 35% 1 hour cooking time: 25% 1.5 hours cooking time: 20% 2 hours cooking time: 10% 2.5 hours cooking time: 5% ~ U.S. Department of Agriculture
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

You know, Persephone, I don't have any concerns about the way you see things until you become somewhat myopic. Then the nudging is only about reminding you that there are other views out here. What term have I used to insult you? I don't care if you practice any or none of the things you may have encountered in the 12 steps. But in all fairness, can you not admit that you give as well as you get on the insult spectrum when it comes to AA?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

Apologies for the bad link; sometimes it happens. The other info was simply to demonstrate that the phrase "terminally unique" is in the lexicon, with and without a nod to recovery. Take it or leave it, it doesn't matter to me.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

""Everyone is encouraging using"? " What post does this appear in? It's getting difficult to make the correct associations. Thanks.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

Here's an example of your giving as good as you get, Persephone ("Massive, what are you saying!" ^^) see what I mean?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Yes, I get defensive about things I encountered in xA, slogans included. I don't normally, nor do I go off on rants in my everyday life about them. I do here, however, and that's one of the slogans that was used insultingly against myself and others while "in recovery", so yes, I got defensive about it. I tend to do that on the OPF. It's my one outlet for this topic. I was referring not to you in the present, but to people who've used that bit before IRL. Sorry for not being more clear on that.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

I'm not sure if there is a person & personality more exasperating, frustrating & useless to interact with than a person who is really dumb, dense & stupid & on top of that is so selfish & self absorbed & self righteous & a liar & just can't get anything unless it is about the dysfunctional way their own mind works & the way they see & comprehend things, which is always dumb & wrong. They honestly just can't comprehend any one's opinion, view or actual facts that differ from their selfish, selfish & self absorbed & dysfunctional minds. Losers & they have to subject others to their loser minds. I guess the only solution is not to participate with them.
patti
Pennywise's picture

Clara does not burn off the booze. She orders a cup of it to dump in her food when it does not normally come with it at the restraunt she is at. This might seem petty, but the real question is why does she insist that she is abstinent from alcohol when she demonstrably is not? Why won't she simply conceed, as any normal person in her place would, that she consumes a small amount of alcohol in moderation? Why is it so important to her to cling to the delusion that she is abstinent? That's the main reason I keep beating this horse.
"One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface." ~ Bill Wilson

Well Ben, I really couldn't help myself. TBH, Clara doesn't really usually bother me. But throwing out a slogan on a suicide thread, yeah, you'd better believe I won't lay off of that. It'd be tedious to keep up on a regular basis though, damn.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

Well Becket, maybe rehab just trained me really well? Who knows.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen
causeandeffect's picture

What I'm seeing in this entire debate is a typical AA-induced lack of empathy. Of course it's possible that becket and clara also naturally lack this attribute, but NA, AA, and it's sister organization, Alanon, promote the idea that empathy is detrimental to the addict. Tough love is what they say is needed. Yet it's been proven that confrontation and tough love is what is actually detrimental, resulting in even more drinking. And that the more empathy that is used, the greater the chances of recovery. It really underscores just how far from the mark xA is on these issues. And how dangerous the idea of terminal uniqueness is, where everyone is expected to have a cookie-cutter recovery, and any and all the complicating factors are just hand waved away. It's just simply against, as Avo said, psych 101. But it would be easy for anybody to see this unless they are brainwashed steppers.

I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head. Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

Clara's picture

No, you beat it because you want someone to bend to your will. People in your AA meeting might see it your way. Ours didn't. I've been in any number of groups from out club where people ate veal marsala, french onion soup, coq au vin, desserts and the like, and only one time did anyone ever have an issue with it. All of this over a teaspoon of seasoned sherry. But thank you for conceding that you did derail the thread onto soup.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

PIE, I wouldn't expcet you to agree with me on this board or any other, but I can imagine that the first thing a person thinks of when hearing about a suicide would be something along the lines of what was going on in that poor person's life that made them think THAT was the answer? I know that I would.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Way to finally arrive at that answer!
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen
btnben's picture

The whole point about depression is that there doesn't have to be anything going on for it to hit. That's why it is so hard to see when people are in trouble. When things happen that you think might tip them over, many times they cope normally. Then something minor, or even nothing, will happen and they dive into the dangerous depths. I see it often in a friend who harms herself. I may be being selfish, but I hate feeling so helpless because there is nothing I can do about it. Believe me, I've tried.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

And the tragedy begins when they convince someone that they can alleviate these issues with a big bunch of billshit.

I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head. Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

Pennywise's picture

Who cares what AA groups approve of? I'm not talking about a value judgement and I'm not questioning you sobriety. I'm simply stating the empirical truth that you consume small amounts of booze in moderation, which of course is different than abstinence. That's not a judgment; that's a fact. You are fighting tooth and nail to resist the logical conclusion here, which I find interesting. Why do you do that?
"One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface." ~ Bill Wilson
causeandeffect's picture

What I find astonishing is that steppers can completely ignore the fact that the brain is an organ that required a balance of biochemicals called neurotransmitters. Like any other organ in the body, any chemical imbalance can cause issues. These steppers wouldn't deny a diabetic insulin (well, some would) yet they completely disregard the fact that sometimes the brain can be imbalanced. A person who started self-medicating to alleviate biochemical-induced anxiety would have a big book thrown at them, instead of doing anything to alleviate the anxiety like taking an anxiolytic such as Valium to normalize them. It is always seen as a "replacement" and as drug seeking to get high. Not denying a person what they need is what's necessary for long-term sobriety. No wonder steppers are so dangerous when it comes to recovery.

I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head. Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

causeandeffect's picture

Penny, most likely because she doesn't want to humiliate herself by picking up a new white chip every time she orders food with alcohol in it. You are making a correct assessment here, but clara is practicing AA-style rigorous honesty(tm). LOL! Personally, I love to eat a wide variety of delicious ethnic food, such as Middle Eastern, Greek, Thai, Mexican, Japanese, Filipino, etc. I don't have to give up my enjoyment of food in order to avoid alcohol. That's not to say I wouldn't eat something that was cooked with alcohol or that has alcohol in it. I certainly have. But I reject AA's purity fetish, so it doesn't matter to me at all what anybody thinks of my sobriety.

I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head. Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

Clara's picture

Sad, sad, sad. I don't know much about bipolar and other types of depression. My experience has been limited to circumstances not chemical situations in my body that can make it spring from nowhere. I can understand feeling helpless over not being able to do something helpful. I think that I just being human, Ben. The closest I think I have been to anything described about the body is peri-menopause. It's a crazy making experience but I am not sure is using anything recreationally would be a good thing.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

No, Cause, and no one would ask me to. It doesn't constitute a slip. I thought I answered this for you the last time you brought it up. I'm glad you like all those cuisines, but they do differ from traditional cream of crab soup! Godly!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Because, Penny, I just see it differently than you do. And that is okay. I am sure that I consume small bits of alcohol when I ingest other condiments, too, but I don't count that, either. I went to Gordon Biersch and had a salad that had lager in the dressing. That doesn't count to me. The only person it matters to is you.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

SELF medicating is the key word! And, no, I haven't heard anyone ever do what DeCon has suggest. No insulin, no blood pressure meds, no viagra, no birth control. That is just a farce.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect's picture

What you fail to understand, clara, is there is a difference between someone drinking or using drugs in an attempt to normalize their minds (that's called self-medication) and accidentally getting addicted, and someone seeking medical help to normalize their minds and doing what the Dr. instructs (that's not self-medicating). That's a distinction most AA members don't understand. I'll be happy to explain it further if necessary.

I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head. Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

btnben's picture

LOL

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

Oh and clara, your Living Sober book admits to AA members having persuaded people into ceasing all kinds of medications, including those for physical problems. Sometimes with disastrous results, it said. So if you have an argument, take it up with AA.

I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head. Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

causeandeffect's picture

Ben, what does QED stand for?

I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head. Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

The uneducated are usually a dangerous lot, and in this case they're not just dangerous, they're deadly. Of course, remember, part of what was brought up here wasn't self-medicating at all, though I know what you're saying. That's one of the worst parts though, steppers acting as if someone is just still getting high when it's actually someone with a medical degree prescribing them something for replacement therapy (usually on a wean down dose, too).
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen
Pennywise's picture

The fact that you consume some alcohol in foods does not matter to me. What matters to me is that you go to extreme lengths to deny undeniable truths. It's indicative of the whole Stepper mindset. Basically you take well established meanings and concepts, distort them beyond all comprehension, and then use those mutations in everyday conversation as if other people are supposed to be able to figure it out. Only in Stepperville does that make sense. It certainly won't fly here. It is also telling how you are so married to the idea of abstinence that you can't understand very simple logic, probably because you don't like the results. Typical Stepper trait -- if you don't like conclusions, you just change the meaning of the words in the premises. This is about much more than soup, Clara.
"One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface." ~ Bill Wilson
Clara's picture

Where does the line form between empathy and enabling? And, Cause, it really is possible to have a conversation without mentioning me if you try...
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben's picture

Quod erat demonstrandum - so it has been shown. It's used at the end of a proof, usually in mathematics. It's sort of Latin for "Na, na na na na - up yours"...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

Soup is just for starters...lol Sorry Penny - couldn't resist it.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

Peace be with you, patti.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

Not arguing either way - just presenting what the Agri Dept. says, that's all.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

. . . in the art of WHAT?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

yes clara, Ironic & your precious clancy have the exact same "can't deal with themselves emotionally & life in general* problem, the solution would also be the same "work the steps (or die)" Your not right in the head are ya. the 6 beers shoulda warned me. 6 bloody beer binge. lmao

Brett

becket's picture

Although what you learned in culinary school is beyond fascinating, I'd like to read what you learned in your six years of residency in psychiatry. I've got the popcorn, Waiting breathlessly, patti . . .
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

I've not received anything remotely resembling empathy from anyone on this board except Pennywise, and that was some time ago. Don't look at my behavior. Check out your own towards those you disagree with, not those you fawn over.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
btnben's picture

Get off the pity pot Marietta...lol. You don't get what you do because you disagree - it's because you're an evil bitch...QED...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

Many of us have been to the neurotransmitter party. I understand it from having experienced imbalances in brain chemistry and having been medicated for it. I would neither deny a diabetic insulin (although that's kinda of more a pancreatic thing rather than a brain thing) nor deny a cardiac patient his daily baby aspirin. Self-medicating is different than being under the care of a doctor. There's a fine line between taking a matter into one's own hands and looking for any reason on the planet to relieve anxiety, or the perception of a reason for anxiety. That's what causes geographicals, "relapses", etc. So what is truly at the heart of addiction? The promise of feeling better? Brain chemistry? Careful you don't make a case for the disease theory here. Is "normalizing one's mind" measured subjectively or objectively? You just want to support the platform of having one's cake and eating it too.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

What is your definition of enabling? Do you use the actual definition or the recovery world's definition?
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
becket's picture

Your input has been disregarded, limey.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

How much empathy have you shown to people on this board? Other than Clara; who you fawn over.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
btnben's picture

That it seems to be a bit of a one way thing. I get the feeling Clara is trying to distance herself from Marietta - just a feeling...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Maybe. Maybe not. I asked Clara because she used the term "real recovery" in a post without expanding on what it constitutes. I was curious.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

I actually thought the same thing!
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Clara's picture

Very cute, Bennieboy!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

No, I haven't failed to understand it, Cause. If you would read what I post instead of just leaping in, you know that I have said this very thing. I think most AA members DO understand it.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Not all steppers... But a person being weaned off of one drug by someone with a medical degree but continuing to use other things is just still getting high.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Yes, I would say this to a 40 or 50 year old or more. It is not an ageist thing. It was said to me at 47.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

This thread really does show why AA is not a good place to be if you have depression. I did not read many of the trollette's posts but the lack of understanding and the insensitivity comes across the early, ignorent and dissmissive posts by Clara. I can remember being told by some old timer that I would feel bad in AA and I did, around the time that reality hit me and I saw what a load of crap the program was. I had gone along with the " solution" but luckily for me I also looked elsewhere and got a more balanced view. The steps can have a very neagative effect on somebody who is depressed and certainly no sane Dr would suggest doing step 4 and 5 when you are down. Those steps work for people with a huge ego, or the aggressive, but not for someone who is suffering depression. My old sponsor just used to tell everyone to pray. That was obviously a complete waste of time, when ever I tried it I felt stupid. There are some good people on here that like to have some rational discussion but the steppers always try to bring it down and that is the problem with AA. You will always have ignorent, extreme members with nothing else in their lives who will try to dominate meetings as that is their sad life. Most of them have become totally socially dysfunctional as a result of relying on the big book as a source of all wisdom.
becket's picture

I do not fawn over Clara. I sometimes defend her, but we have never had a conversation between the two of us - we do not respond back and forth like you do (and do and do and do) with other posters. Whenever I approach anything like empathy in a post it is met with derision. I expect that. It was an early-set precedent.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

If you mean me, btnben, Clara has never responded to anything I've said, not once. We are not buddies and pals. We do not share a lot of the same ideology. I certainly would not be lost without her on this forum. And I know damn well she would continue her filibuster if I took a break.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

Yes, and now you see, I'm curious, because there seem to be varying degrees of tolerance with regard to drug and alcohol usage here, whether it be among AA members, former AA members, or people who have left AA in disgust. What, for instance, is your understanding of "real recovery", gigi?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
causeandeffect's picture

What gigi said. What definition are you looking for? AA/Alanon's or what actually happens in the real world? Hint: if you steppers think it's not enabling, it probably IS enabling in the real world.

I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head. Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

causeandeffect's picture

Pour you, pour you... You come and beg for it every day and scream and thrash around until you get it. Then you whine when you get what you're asking for. Makes no sense to me.

I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head. Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

So what? I've known loads of people who used pot recreationally to "get high". Much of the time I was calling them, "Professor", too. This may just be a generational thing, but I don't see smoking weed any differently than I see drinking (normal drinking, I mean). It's not very dangerous and I don't see the problem, regardless of someone's "status" as having been addicted to something ELSE in the past. Opiates are incredibly different than marijuana. It's not quite the same thing. To me, at least. Maybe I'm just judgmental when it comes to that stuff, I also didn't care how much bisque you ordered with sherry, either. That's your business. As is her weed smoking. I don't know if you noticed, but she got happy when she mentioned the weed, which is far better than what was being discussed up-thread. It goes back to what Avo was saying earlier, there's no point in people being completely clean and sober (whatever that means to people) if they're miserable! Me, I'm different, I like having absolutely nada affecting my mood, but that's a very rare personality type to have, and I would never judge anyone else for not being that way (boy, would THAT be a weird and lonely little world to live in!).
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

You have nothing to empathise with Becket. You simply come here to disrupt and do not fit in with the majority who post here. You are simply another sad stepper with nothing new to say or nothing in your life that would be of Interest to anyone here. You are generally ignored here.

Well, sometimes the Clarisms that you defend are pretty indefensible. You've never had a conversation with her, yet you come to her defense a lot. It doesn't appear that you and she share the same ideology. That's what I don't understand.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Well, in my case (and that of many people here), you're talking to someone who probably defines "enabling" very, very differently than you do. I also don't see being non-judgmental about someone smoking weed as "enabling" anything, more like being a normal person. Wow. I can't believe I just entered into THIS discussion.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

Dishing it out, Becket. Or strengthening my already healthy bullshit detector. The art of paying a huge bill. You figure it out.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

Becket, For starters what you have said and the response you have received so far are not entirely inaccurate. There are other reasons for it which you have not mentioned. I've witnessed empathy toward you in the past. As a matter of fact we had a conversation in which I offered sincere understanding of a predicament you once had (in the past). I mentioned that I thought you were strong and independent, a compliment in my eyes. Your response was bitter, accusatory. Just nasty. You told me I was kissing your ass. That you didn't appreciate it after I had just got done "sucking [another] poster's cock". You also told me that you didn't care what I thought and that if I ceased speaking to you in the future you wouldn't bother taking notice. Why would anyone want to offer any personal empathy toward you after witnessing such a reaction?

Pro Empowerment!

Honestly Becket, I don't have a hard and fast rule or concept of "real recovery." I don't know what that means or why someone should pass a judgement on something not qualifying as "real recovery." Which is what Clara did and does on a regualr basis. That's why I asked. In my own personal case, I don't drink anymore. At all. And I'm good with that. I guess that's real recovery.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

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