God Job

Submitted by BB Kate on Sun, 05/06/2012 - 18:38

On many occasions i heard members say "It's a God job".

It heard it said in situations as varied as:
* Getting a car park when running late to a meeting
* Running into a member on the street when having a bad day
*Getting the last teaspoon of instant coffee at a meeting

and my favourite...
*meeting a newcomer in AA with the same name as a cousin with a drinking problem.

Do AA members really think that these things are an intervention of a God, who cares about the minutia of their lives?

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Comments

Pennywise

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 18:41

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Yes, they do. At first I

Yes, they do. At first I thought it was just an expression of speech, but in actuality they truly do believe it works that way.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

BB Kate

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 19:14

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It just seems so selfish to

It just seems so selfish to think that God is saving you a carparking space...

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

becket

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 12:43

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For whom is this a problem,

For whom is this a problem, Pennywise? You don't believe the universe works this way. Do others' differing beliefs impact you in some negative way?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 14:33

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Do others' differing beliefs

Do others' differing beliefs impact you in some negative way?

In many instances, yes. In the context of AA, I have to listen to this shit constantly. When people of power start believing Stepper bullshit, that affects me. I am also affected by religion outside of the AA context. Now, I am not gay. But if I were, I could not marry the person of my choice. Why? Religion. That's just one example. Many others come to mind. Thankfully most schools around here teach evolution, but it wasn't too long ago when that would not have happened. Why? Religion. What about embryonic stem cell research? There could be a lot of potential there for life saving medical advancements. What's the main factor holding it back? You guessed it - religion. I could go on and on.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 14:36

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Absolutely, Pennywise!

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Pennywise

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 14:47

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Indeed. And you know what

Indeed. And you know what really holds this country back? It's when the people who run the country, i.e. the corporations, prop up political candidates who pander to popular religions values in order to get common folks to vote directly against their economic interests.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 15:41

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Well, yes, now you're really

Well, yes, now you're really singing my song. I really enjoyed Thomas Frank's take on this, though I wouldn't stop or start there. I'm fairly disgusted with the rise of the "religious values" vote, and it's not just here. The outrages in Turkey are growing by the day, and despite the difference in the religion being pushed by the extremists in both countries, the results are surprisingly similar. Of course, we don't yet have laws here by which you can sue and potentially jail someone for hurting their feelings on a religious level, but I can just see the theocons salivating at that prospect. And, as you say, all while being directed by many who could care less and merely want to keep lining their pockets. It's a wonderful thing to turn a portion of the population against the very science that could destroy your business and keep the voting block that stable. Well, from their POV.

Have you read more recent Kevin Phillips, btw? His take on this is masterful, especially as he's the one who basically invented the Southern Strategy.

Sorry to drag the thread further away, it has just been a disturbing last few months. You think other people's beliefs can't effect your life? Take a look at the legislation coming out of Arizona and Kansas lately. Unless you have a weak stomach.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Pennywise

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 15:50

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I'll have to check that out.

I'll have to check that out. I am not familiar with Kevin Phillips. Thanks for telling me :)

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 16:16

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No problem Penny, it's always

No problem Penny, it's always nice to find someone with similar interests;) I highly recommend American Theocracy. Though Bad Money is pretty high on my list as well.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Ironic

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 00:22

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Thank you Penny

I was raised Jewish and saw a LOT of this pandering to the far right wacko evangelists

becket

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 14:53

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When do you get to stop going

When do you get to stop going to meetings, Pennywise? Apparently, your having to go has something to do with some sort of penance for an "offense" of some kind. Just consider it a consequence of your actions and do your time. You've already said it was not a life sentence, so swing with it. Whoever these people in power are, have you suggested to them that they want to investigate programs other than AA? Have you presented any case to them against AA at all?

I have problems with the War on Women at the moment, so I'm not unsympathetic. But I was asking specifically about other's beliefs vis a vis god/not god. I understand the trickle-down, but I don't know that this forum would bear a discussion about every detail of every religion and how they have the power and the inclination to jerk people around. In simple terms, if someone believes in God and lives his own life according to his beliefs, that should not stop you in your tracks. The trouble is, so many people believe they're called to evangelize and order the universe according to the way they believe their god has designed it that those of us who don't believe as they do get the shit end of the stick.

Curious: why are there not atheist/agnostic schools and hospitals in this country?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 15:10

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I committed no offence. I

Becket: When do you get to stop going to meetings, Pennywise? Apparently, your having to go has something to do with some sort of penance for an "offense" of some kind. Just consider it a consequence of your actions and do your time. You've already said it was not a life sentence, so swing with it. Whoever these people in power are, have you suggested to them that they want to investigate programs other than AA? Have you presented any case to them against AA at all?

I committed no offense. I have not been arrested in a very long time. Nor have committed any other type of offical wrongdoing. I'm in AA because I created a medical record for myself by making the stupidest choice I ever made when I decided to go to treatment. So I have a permanent disease. This means I am not paying a punishment, which I wish I were. If it was a punishment, then my time would expire. That's all I have to say about that.

Becket: if someone believes in God and lives his own life according to his beliefs, that should not stop you in your tracks.

Few people do that. Life is largely a power struggle. Religion is leverage.

Becket: Curious: why are there not atheist/agnostic schools and hospitals in this country?

All public schools are supposed to be secular. The problem is that religious folks will fight tooth and nail to prevent that from happening. It's hard to start a private atheist school because it's hard to compete with the money that religion brings in.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 15:30

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I'm sorry; it was never clear

I'm sorry; it was never clear what the reasons were for your attending meetings. I thought you said at one point your job depended on it, but if you choose not to discuss it any further that's fine.

Yes, I did emphasize others' living their own lives according to their own beliefs, and not anyone else's. I acknowledged that this is not often enough the case.

In short: the country is fucked.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 15:48

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Some jobs require you to not

Some jobs require you to not be chemically dependent, which I am, for the rest of my life. So I have to be in "recovery," which basically includes AA. You don't have to do anything wrong or be in trouble to be mandated.

Anyway, you said "I did emphasize others' living their own lives according to their own beliefs, and not anyone else's."

The problem is that oftentimes a persons' beliefs require them to push that belief on others. So if they wish to live according to their beliefs, they have to push it on others, because if they didn't, then they would not be living up to their beliefs.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 15:59

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Hence "evangelizing'.

Why not some alternative to AA? Who determines/ed that you are chemically dependent? Did you do that?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 16:10

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I went to detox and treatment

I went to detox and treatment. The doctor diagnosed me. It's my fault for putting myself in that situation, make no mistake about it. Theoretically I could do some alternative, but it would not be "as good." AA is the gold standard and everything else is looked at suspiciously. Even if they have to give you a choice, they'll think you are in denial if you exercise it and they'll treat you accordingly. Plus AA is really, really easy to get to, and thanks to technology, I can surf the internet at meetings. Honestly, I'd rather surf the web at meetings than pay attention and I'm not sure how that would be viewed in AA alternatives.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 16:21

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I hope the job is worth it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 16:33

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Not so much. I just don't

Not so much. I just don't want to feel like a loser by giving up. I have mixed feelings. But you're right; it's all my fault.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

steve cochrane

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 20:06

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you be careful

my friend. No one is a loser in this life!! No one!! You are listening to that imaginary judge in your head. You got people who love you here. Kabish?

becket

Wed, 05/09/2012 - 14:21

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capisce

capisce: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=capisce

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 17:13

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Penny, that really is awful.

Penny, that really is awful. You just tried to do the right thing. I know they probably think it's for your own good and all, but it does seem a bit too much on the punitive side. That's another thing I hate about going to treatment, it's such a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. My attorney told me that this information (if and when, and where) we went to treatment is all accessible on Lexis Nexis these days and that it's hard to even keep it a secret, regardless of privacy laws. I'm not saying that's what happened in your case, but it seems harder and harder to have this "problem" without everyone potentially finding it out. And, like you say, it comes down to what is considered acceptable, and that is almost exclusively 12 step programs.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Pennywise

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 17:26

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The thing is, PIE, I could

The thing is, PIE, I could have lied and avoided it. My stuff is not on Lexis, as least as far as I can tell. On any account, I'm not a liar. Most people would say I'm an idiot. I don't regret telling the truth (I've always been a straight shooter), but I do regret getting help. It's tough though.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 18:53

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No, I completely understand.

No, I completely understand. I can't tell you how many people, including doctors, that I was honest with and it ended up getting me fired right out of having medical care. I realize that's a completely different situation than yours affecting work, it just stemmed from the same "character defect" of mine, being completely honest. I was very honest about this, but I'll stress the "was" in that.

I don't know how correct my attorney was in that, btw, that wasn't for something he was working on on the clock for me. I am going to look into that a bit more...and hire a more aggressive attorney....and finalize the name change...etc.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

ilse

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 19:56

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becket says, Do others'

becket says, Do others' differing beliefs impact you in some negative way?

9/11?

Oh, but: "Yes, I did emphasize others' living their own lives according to their own beliefs, and not anyone else's. "

I'm not sure I saw the part where you emphasized a point you didn't actually make, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: People who are "living their own lives according to their own beliefs" are often required, according to their own beliefs, to impose said beliefs on other people in order to achieve sobriety... I mean, salvation.

live_free_or_die

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 05:32

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would that be ...............

...the hokey religion of AA? SUGGESTING the inflicted, diseased "alcoholic" leave their spouse? for instance.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket

Wed, 05/09/2012 - 14:26

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makin me ill-se

Oh for fuck's sake - such a literalist you are ill-se! If it wasn't clear to the entire community here that I was talking to Pennywise about his job/AA problem and not the motivations of zealous terrorists, well, I guess I'll just have to say, "sorry, folks!" And now, since ill-se has set the bar so high, I will be looking for any deviation, any override, any misspelling, any contradiction, any poorly-framed point within any of your posts and, as time permits, will make them the subjects of blogs so everyone can weigh in on your errors, k? Looking forward to it!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect

Wed, 05/09/2012 - 14:56

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How nice of you to extend

How nice of you to extend Ilse an AA-style welcome! But I doubt Ilse's scared of you, becket. Or your whole army of you and clara.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket

Wed, 05/09/2012 - 14:58

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People always make the wolf

People always make the wolf more formidable than he is.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

ilse

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 21:30

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I'm in.

And now, since ill-se has set the bar so high, I will be looking for any deviation, any override, any misspelling, any contradiction, any poorly-framed point within any of your posts and, as time permits, will make them the subjects of blogs so everyone can weigh in on your errors, k? Looking forward to it!

Take me on, Blech-et.

I'll see your elementary school misspelling of my name and call the rudimentary subject-verb agreement mess you made up there with a "snnk!" Throw down.

becket

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 21:51

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English as a second language,

English as a second language, Ilse?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

ilse

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 22:25

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Yes, please!

Does anyone have an "Internet Tough Guy to WTF" pocket dictionary I can borrow?

Ironic

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 00:52

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Penny I don't get it

How can you be sentenced to AA indefinitely? Are your meetings mandatory?

Pennywise

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 03:36

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Ironic, I'm not "sentenced"

Ironic, I'm not "sentenced" to anything. It goes back to the conversation we had a few months ago about what can happen when you create a medical record for yourself. Certain professions are, in many respects, exempt from the Americans With Disabilities Act. This means that in the interest of public safety, people with certain disabilities can be forced to meet certain special requirements if they wish to be in the profession. As an alcoholic, I pose a risk to the public, even though my "disease" has never resulted in any professional misconduct. It could happen, and the risks are so great (so they say), that I have to show compliance with treatment. Part of my treatment, as you can imagine, is to go to AA for basically ever. Thankfully, I don't have to see a psychologist or attend any more formal aftercare.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Unhinged

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 03:42

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Pennywise....

I hope you don't mind me asking? What do you do for a living?

Why did you create a medical record for yourself?

Pennywise

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 03:52

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No offense, but I prefer not

No offense, but I prefer not to reveal too much personal info on the web. It has nothing to do with not trusting you or anyone else who posts here. It's simply that anyone in the world can read this board without even registering. I'd probably share a bit more if only trusted members could read it.

Anyway, I created a record for myself because I was killing myself with liquor and foolishly gave in to the idea that no one could do it alone and I needed help. Also, although I never had DTs, my physical withdrawals were a bitch. I should have just manned-up and dealt with it, but I felt a lot of pressure from family as well. Plus I think it was helpful to be isolated from alcohol for awhile. At least I have stayed sober since treatment. My last drink was in the parking lot waiting to go in.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Unhinged

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 04:56

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Pennywise....

I understand why you don't want to reveal too much personal information. That's no problem.

I too was killing myself with booze. I also thought I needed help to quit and off I went to AA. Thankfully, I ran away soon after attending a few times. I feel sorry for you man that you need to keep going back there. What a fucker that is. You just need to make the best of a bad situation mate. Keep surfing away at your meetings!

Physical withdrawals ARE a bitch. It's those physical withdrawals that have scared me away from heavy binge drinking again. The times I thought I was dying.

Good luck to you man.

live_free_or_die

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 04:56

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penny has god done his job

Has there been a god job and are u cured pennyW?

if not, Is there an anticipated miracle performance in your near future?

let go let god. keep coming back. it works if you work it. take the cotton out of your ears blah blah blah...............

Pennywise

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 05:01

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Not cured because I never had

Not cured because I never had a disease to begin with. I just refuse to drink anymore. It's the best way I know.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 05:03

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the cure

did you admit to being an "alcoholic" to the doc?

Pennywise

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 06:12

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Sort of. I was off the

Sort of. I was off the charts on their DSM and my liver values were through the roof. No cirrhosis, however. That sort of speaks for itself.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 11:36

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Are you an alcoholic?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 21:34

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No, I am not.

I'm an atheist.

btnben

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 05:09

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That's why I can never understand the placebo effect

Surely, the placebo effect needs an actual illness or disease to be effective? In the case of AA, wouldn't the placebo effect be a non-existent cure for a non-existent disease. Try selling that idea to research funders...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

alkieanon

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 11:51

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10 Fascinating Facts About The Placebo Effect

1. Placebo Effect Produces Real Pain-killers
2. Costly Placebo Works Better Than Cheap One
3. All Placebos Are Not Created Alike: The Power Of Healing Ritual
4. Placebo Response Is Strong With Asthma
5. Placebo Effect Can Last For Years
6. Huge Placebo Effect In Depression
7. Placebo Is Quite Effective Treatment For Osteoarthritis
8. Placebo Surgery Surprise: Fake Procedures Are As Good As "Real" Surgery
9. Taking Pills, Even If Placebo, Predicts Better Survival In Heart Failure
10. Placebo Acupuncture Tied To Higher In-Vitro Fertilization Pregnancies

Our conclusion
Hope, faith, and love work wonders.

http://www.mindpowernews.com/PowerOfPlacebo.htm

alkieanon

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 10:18

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Placebo Effect Opinion

"Of course we know that this nutty religious or spiritual or superstitious stuff that is at the heart of the A.A. and N.A. programs doesn't really work, but it offers a wonderful placebo effect, and if the patients think that it works, and it helps to keep the patients off of drugs and alcohol, then the illusion is a good thing. It might save their lives. So let's encourage it."

"Of course we know that this nutty raving about God, and this religious or spiritual or superstitious stuff that is the heart of the A.A. and N.A. programs doesn't really work, but if the patients think that it works, and it helps to keep the patients off of drugs and alcohol, then the delusion is a good thing. It has some kind of a helpful "placebo effect". It might save their lives. So let's encourage it."

Unhinged

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 10:51

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alkieanon

"Patients can become dependent on nonscientific practitioners who employ placebo therapies. Such patients may be led to believe they're suffering from imagined "reactive" hypoglycemia, nonexistent allergies and yeast infections, dental filling amalgam "toxicity," or that they're under the power of qi or extraterrestrials. And patients can be led to believe that diseases are only amenable to a specific type of treatment from a specific practitioner."

The Mysterious Placebo by John E. Dodes, Skeptical Inquirer, Jan/Feb 1997