AA by its nature (a hokey religion) does indeed cause some "alcoholic" AA members to suicide.
Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and the “treatment programs” that it is has spawned (12 step programs) can be harmful to the individual alcohol abuser. The discussion following will discuss AA/12 step programs and the human condition.
For ease of discussion any use of AA will be meant to incorporate AA and the numerous 12 step “programs” of alcohol abuse.
Upon its founding (1935) and continuing to today AA claims its program is one of spirituality and not religious. AA and its fellowship continues this claim despite the fact that AA has been examined by numerous state and federal courts and these various courts have ruled that AA is a religion. AA is, without a doubt, a religion.
This AA religion teaches that any individual that embraces the program of AA is powerless over alcohol; their life is unmanageable as a result of alcohol. AA the religion insists that the alcohol abuser is full of character defects. AA the religion insists these numerous character defects must be admitted to, examined and removed in order to survive to live another day.
AA the religion insists that one must turn their life over to god in order to live another day; to not do so will result in the individual finding their self in jail, prison, institutionalized or, ultimately, dead. Powerful stuff no?
AA the religion, by it true nature, can cause fear, anxiety, restlessness, despair, hopelessness, depression, anger and numerous other human emotions that are detrimental to the human condition. AA the religion throws into this mix all the numerous character defects and then tells the AA newcomer that only god can help (by miracles) with their dire situation. Miracles Performed Here.
When god does not perform the miracle for the newcomer some will become even more depressed, angry, hopeless, etc.
**************************************************
Letters #1 & 2 received by Orange from readers of the Orange Papers.
#1 (posted earlier)
I forgot one thing. The suicide rate in AA of people sober longer than 15 years. Unfortunately a study has not been done, but the first eight years I was in AA, I knew (not just of, but knew) 17 people with over 15 years of sobriety, who committed suicide. Most of them were not "dry drunks". Also, I was present at a meeting where the husband of one member came in and shot his wife and then himself. I remember hearing for the next week how freaked people were that their "safe place" had been denigrated. I remember saying to people that they were nuts if this was their safe place as there were rapists, pedophiles, murderers, and other criminals sitting next to them at almost every meeting. If only I had understood the depth of that statement.
#2
Date: Sun, December XX, XXXX 1:45 pm
From: Anonymous
Dear Sir/ Madam,
I have enjoyed reading your material on the net concerning the AA cult. I spent 8 years of my life in this evil organisation. In that time I have seen many young men commit suicide, a direct result I believe of the program. I brought this subject up at meetings but of course they tried to put me down.
When I shared about being beaten by my parents as a child I was told to make amends to them! I just laughed loudly.
I have also seen sponsors, who think they're great spiritual masters, exploit women for sex. This is very common.
It is a difficult problem, as members believe deep down that they are right, that AA is perfect. Most disturbing of all is that they believe they will die if they leave AA, hence the appalling suicide rate. I live in XXXX, Ireland, but I believe AA is the same everywhere. Keep up the good work in exposing this evil cult.
Yours
Anonymous
***********************************************************
The above are unsolicited letters from readers of the Orange Papers that chose to write to Orange in emails and discuss their own experiences and thoughts on AA.
Orange responded to each one. I thank you Orange and salute you for your efforts.
I personally have no doubt in my mind that AA causes some AA members to suicide and that AA is, as a result of the AA religion, responsible for the suicides of some AA members. Not all, but some, and that is irresponsible and evil. This is my belief and it is real.
Comments
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 21:13
Permalink
It is what it does to you
It is what it does to you when you drink it.
Didn't we go over why this is wrong according to AA just the other day?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 21:19
Permalink
We talked about it, but I am
We talked about it, but I am not sure it is wrong. I know that YOU think it is, but I have a driving record that tels me something else. Whenever anything bad happened to me, booze was there someplace... It has no place in my body despite what you or anyone else has to say, or how cute the green chile beer commercials are...
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 21:32
Permalink
It is not what *I* think. I
It is not what *I* think. I've heard Clancy address this point multiple times. He is very clear on this. Also, if booze has no place in your body, then why do you consume booze in coffee and/or desserts? If I remember right, you order sherry (or something) to put in certain foods or drinks. That means you put alcoholic beverages in your body, which in turn means I outrank you in AA. Please correct me if I have you mixed up with someone else.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 21:48
Permalink
I don't drink coffee so I
I don't drink coffee so I have no idea where that originated. I do eat gourmet foods, which I wasn't discouraged to do, and the amounts are negligable. That is not the same as sitting down to drink as a coping mechanism. I never wreck a car after Chocoloate Fondue.
As for Clancy, you act as if he is my best friend. I have 2 CDs of his. One is when he was guest speaker at El Paso Jamboree and the other is when he spoke at a medical convention. I am not an expert of Clancy or his views. Never claimed to be, either. For him, he couldn't deal with himself emotionally when he was sober, so he relapsed.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 22:01
Permalink
Since you got "sober," have
Since you got "sober," have you ever ordered a side of liquor to pour in a dish that you subsequently consumed? Yes or no?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 22:16
Permalink
Yes, a whole teaspoon, and no
Yes, a whole teaspoon, and no, we don't consider that or Chicken Marsala, French Onion Soup, or Cheese fondue or anything else to be a problem. None of this is new, Penny.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 22:30
Permalink
Clara said: "we don't
Clara said: "...we don't consider that or Chicken Marsala, French Onion Soup, or Cheese fondue or anything else to be a problem."
Clara previously said: "...and I ordered the sherry with my crab soup and I plopped a spoonful of it in my soup. It bothered the other AA, but not me, and I told her so." ~ http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/828#comments
So in this thread you say that "we" don't consider it to be a problem, but in another thread you admitted a fellow Stepper had a problem with it. Which is it?
The bottom line is that you went out of your way to specifically order alcohol to consume, even though you claim here that alcohol has no place in your body.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 22:44
Permalink
Mickey wasn't my sponsor.
Mickey wasn't my sponsor. She definitely had a problem with it! The rest of our group didn't have an issue with it, either. No smoking gun, Penny. I also never wrecked a car over crab bisque! I remember when we went to Collectors Cafe, and she ordered chocolate mousse, only to discover it had rum in it. Ate every bit, too!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 22:48
Permalink
Clara, no AA that I have ever
Clara, no AA that I have ever come across has ever specifically ordered a side of booze to consume at a restaurant. Not ever. The booze was not even a normal ingredient in the dish. You specifically had to ask the waitstaff to bring it to you. I'm not a newcomer, and people working a true AA program simply don't do that. Either way, your statement that booze has no place in your body is demonstrably false. You don't live by that precept.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:24
Permalink
No one ordered a drink to put
No one ordered a drink to put in soup, Penny. You are trying to mischaracterize a traditional way to eat this soup in order to have conversation. I asked for it specifically because that is how it is served in MB. If you were in Annapolis, you wouldn't have to ask for it. It would be brought to you in a little cup like a condiment.
Remember too that AA is a program of suggestions. I am fine with my program.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:04
Permalink
This doesn't even make sense.
This doesn't even make sense. In your first sentence you said no one ordered a drink, and in the second sentence you said you asked for it specifically. Asking a waiter to bring you a glass with booze in it is called "ordering a drink."
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:11
Permalink
I didn't ask for a glass of
I didn't ask for a glass of booze. I asked for a sherry service. Now, penny, don't tell me you only go to places with paper napkins... I know people that wouldn't use wine vinegar in salad dressing. Others shrug their shoulders.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:29
Permalink
This comical. WTF is "sherry
This is comical. WTF is "sherry service" if not a euphamism for ordering a glass of booze? Plus the booze didn't simply come as a standard ingredient in the soup. You had to ask for it as a special side.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
btnben
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:32
Permalink
Exactly the point Penny
This example was not "accidental" or "that's how it comes". This is "boozing with intent". Clara - rather than fight it out on here, go to a meeting and tell them what you've said on here and see the response...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Ironic
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 12:06
Permalink
If I order marijuana service
If I order marijuana service with my pack of e z winder rolling papers, can I still pick up keytags?
On a side note, I got an MFLB for graduation. Magic Flight Launch Box is an amazing vape, google it if you smoke!
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 12:42
Permalink
What is a key tag? But
What is a key tag? But anything to stretch a point, eh?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 12:41
Permalink
Don't you think I have?
Don't you think I have?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:50
Permalink
Sherry is a wine. Sherry
Sherry is a wine. Sherry service can be simply sherry or sherry with salt and pepper and other seasonings. I ordered it as a side in MB because that isn't how they serve it there. It would be different in Annapolis, where cream of crab is king and it is served with flair!
Now, how many ways do I have to answer this question this morning before I get accused of
"flooding?"
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
gigi
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 12:10
Permalink
Honestly?
Honestly?
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 12:30
Permalink
Eh, I'm assuming that's like
Eh, I'm assuming that's like ordering a tea service. Must be a mid-atlantic thing, I've not heard of it, but doesn't sound too far off.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
causeandeffect
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:56
Permalink
There are people who won't
There are people who won't have non-alcoholic wine at Mass and those who won't use certain mustards on their sandwiches because the trace amounts of alcohol contained. You just have to stop consuming foods and beverages with alcohol in them, just as you have to stop consuming beverages. Eat something else. And to accidentally have a sip of a beverage, that, say got mixed up with someone else's would constitute a relapse. I think clara needs to claim a whole lot of white chips.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:08
Permalink
That is their choice. I didn
That is their choice. I didn't make that choice to cut out mustard or gourmet food. I don't go to the Fondue Pot and order my cheese fondue made with broth. Accidentally sipping someone else's drink isn't a relapse, either. At least, not in my group. We've had people say things like that. Did they choose to continue drinking it?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 08:41
Permalink
Fondue is considered gourmet
Fondue is considered gourmet now instead of complete kitsch? Is this 1970s day on OPF?
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 11:03
Permalink
Good gosh, PIE, Fondue has
Good gosh, PIE, Fondue has been very popular for the past many years. The Fondue Pot was at one time the fastest growing franchise opportunity (of course, that was also true of Subway). Where have you been?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 11:57
Permalink
Apologies, of all the trends
Apologies, of all the trends I've heard about in recent years fondue hasn't been one of them. I do remember it being a craze of sorts, though.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 12:35
Permalink
I must admit, I do find all
I must admit, I do find all of this a bit humorous. I'd trade places in a heartbeat with someone who had to make dietary restrictions due to a non-medical issue (and let's face it, even if your alcoholism reached medical levels, wine vinegar in a salad is NOT going to make anyone effing relapse, it's not going to hurt you). By choice, I can understand. For political reasons I can understand. For medical reasons I can understand. Hell, for Clara's reasons I can understand NOT restricting things. For AAs, well, pass the sel gris, because when 12 step ideology gets in the way of foodie snobbery, then it's time to throw down.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
avogadno
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 22:49
Permalink
Not my program, but that
Not my program, but that sounds like a relapse in my former meetings. Just sayin.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:28
Permalink
To some, it might. It
To some, it might. It certainly was upsetting to Mickey, who wasn't familiar with the practice. But when we went out for dessert after a meeting, she ordered chocolate mousse. When she said "something" was in the mousse, it didn't keep her from finishing it. She didn't consider that to be a problem.
To sit down with a drink to alter how I feel is of importance. Eating bread pudding with bourbon sauce in New Orleans isn't.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 10:41
Permalink
We believe, and so suggested
From "The Doctor's Opinion" in the Big Book:
"We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all;"
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 22:16
Permalink
Well that is why I explained
Well that is why I explained Clancy's view a few times to you so that you would have a clear understanding that wrecking cars or getting DUIs have nothing to do with whether you are an alcoholic.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 22:19
Permalink
You and Clancy can share a
You and Clancy can share a belief. I personally believe that the problems in my life related to alcohol say something different. Are you interested in trying to convince someone to drink again, that it might be different this time? There's the insanity.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
live_free_or_die
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:09
Permalink
.
.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 22:59
Permalink
Clara said: and the amounts
Clara said: and the amounts are negligable.
No, this can't be. If the amount was negligible, then why would you go out of your way to specifically request it when it didn't come standard with the dish? If it was negligible, then it wouldn't make a difference.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:19
Permalink
Because I lived in Annapolis,
Because I lived in Annapolis, MD for years. That is a signature dish for that area and it is how we eat it. Mickey was from Myrtle Beach and had never eaten it that way, so it seemed alien to her. That would never have happened in Annapolis where someone would question it.
No one told me that I would have to eat at McDonald's for the rest of my life if I chose to go to AA.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
gigi
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:32
Permalink
Ok, real slow this time...
You said that alcohol has no place in you body. You also said that you went out of your way to order sherry for your soup. You ate the soup. You put alcohol in your body. Are you incapable of seeing how this is completely contradictory? I could give a fig if you have sherry in your soup, liquer in your fondue or whiskey on your cheerios. The point is that you are a hypocrite.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:40
Permalink
It doesn't have to be "real
It doesn't have to be "real slow this time...," Gigi. Why not accept that someone doesn't believe as you do? Using something as a condiment differs from sitting down to have a drink to alter how your feel.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
gigi
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:49
Permalink
It has nothing to do with
It has nothing to do with what I believe, Clara. You are a hypocrite. End of story. Elvis has left the building. Don't forget to tip your waitress.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
btnben
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:53
Permalink
gig - are you saying
It's not normal to have 16 bowl's of soup at one sitting?...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:58
Permalink
Not by anyone's standards,
Not by anyone's standards, Ben. LOL is right.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:03
Permalink
It's not *our* belief, it's
It's not *our* belief, it's AA's. The idea is that any amount of alcohol consumed is going to lead to a relapse. That your "allergy" will take over because you are powerless and you will spin out of control, hitting an even lower bottom, this time possibly killing someone with your car. You wouldn't want to kill someone just because you insisted on having sherry in your crab bisque, now would you clara? That would be the ultimate of selfishness.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:05
Permalink
I believe that sitting down
I believe that sitting down to a drink could do that. I don't believe sitting down to a bowl of soup with a dash of sherry would.
So, is this where you practice some acceptance that someone disagrees with you and move on... or do you do a day on it?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:10
Permalink
So what if the drink was
So what if the drink was mixed very weak? Would it then be a problem? What if I had a coke with a splash of rum just because I like the taste?
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
JR Harris
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:10
Permalink
New saying on death bed - Give me soup with sherry in it damn it
Your a hypocrite, abstinence means abstinence. (meaning "NONE" for those of the AA faith that have gone through a Spiritual lobotomy and just can not or would not give themselves to the simple program of logic.)
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:15
Permalink
Real slow for you ~
Real slow for you ~
Clara said: "It [booze] has no place in my body despite what you or anyone else has to say, or how cute the green chile beer commercials are..."
The above statement is completely incompatible with ordering a side of liquor to put in food you consume. By ordering a drink to pour in your dish and then consuming the dish, you are putting alcohol into your body. There is no way around it.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:23
Permalink
It doesn't have to be real
It doesn't have to be real slow, Penny. Can you not see the difference between having a drink to alter your mood? There's difference between eating a bowl of soup at lunch and chugging a green chile beer at Cinco de Maya.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:28
Permalink
Alcohol is cunning, baffling
Alcohol is cunning, baffling and powerful. It starts as one harmless seeming splash of sherry in your she crab soup. Then it's 2 splashes. Eventually it's 50 splashes and a teaspoon of soup and you are lapping it up using the ladle from the kitchen. Then you drive and kill somebody. Is that soup really worth it?
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:32
Permalink
Nectar of the gods, girl! I
Nectar of the gods, girl! I love it. In all seriousness, Cause, you sound like the fear mongering AAs you rail against.
I don't believe this is a problem.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:34
Permalink
I agree with you Clara - It's not a problem for you.
It would be a problem for an alcoholic though.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
causeandeffect
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:37
Permalink
Clara, I think you're in
Clara, I think you're in denial about you alcohol use. You are even calling it nectar of the gods. Don't you think you're engaging in magical thinking to think that alcohol in food is not going to lead you down that slippery slope just as it would in a beverage? You never answered my question. What if I decided to have a coke with a splash of rum in it, just because I like the taste? Would that be a relapse? Would I need to pick up a white chip?
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:47
Permalink
I am talking about crab soup,
I am talking about crab soup, Cause. I adore it.
Yes, your taking a drink would be a relapse. If you've read my posts, you know I have answered that.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
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