AA by its nature (a hokey religion) does indeed cause some "alcoholic" AA members to suicide.
Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and the “treatment programs” that it is has spawned (12 step programs) can be harmful to the individual alcohol abuser. The discussion following will discuss AA/12 step programs and the human condition.
For ease of discussion any use of AA will be meant to incorporate AA and the numerous 12 step “programs” of alcohol abuse.
Upon its founding (1935) and continuing to today AA claims its program is one of spirituality and not religious. AA and its fellowship continues this claim despite the fact that AA has been examined by numerous state and federal courts and these various courts have ruled that AA is a religion. AA is, without a doubt, a religion.
This AA religion teaches that any individual that embraces the program of AA is powerless over alcohol; their life is unmanageable as a result of alcohol. AA the religion insists that the alcohol abuser is full of character defects. AA the religion insists these numerous character defects must be admitted to, examined and removed in order to survive to live another day.
AA the religion insists that one must turn their life over to god in order to live another day; to not do so will result in the individual finding their self in jail, prison, institutionalized or, ultimately, dead. Powerful stuff no?
AA the religion, by it true nature, can cause fear, anxiety, restlessness, despair, hopelessness, depression, anger and numerous other human emotions that are detrimental to the human condition. AA the religion throws into this mix all the numerous character defects and then tells the AA newcomer that only god can help (by miracles) with their dire situation. Miracles Performed Here.
When god does not perform the miracle for the newcomer some will become even more depressed, angry, hopeless, etc.
**************************************************
Letters #1 & 2 received by Orange from readers of the Orange Papers.
#1 (posted earlier)
I forgot one thing. The suicide rate in AA of people sober longer than 15 years. Unfortunately a study has not been done, but the first eight years I was in AA, I knew (not just of, but knew) 17 people with over 15 years of sobriety, who committed suicide. Most of them were not "dry drunks". Also, I was present at a meeting where the husband of one member came in and shot his wife and then himself. I remember hearing for the next week how freaked people were that their "safe place" had been denigrated. I remember saying to people that they were nuts if this was their safe place as there were rapists, pedophiles, murderers, and other criminals sitting next to them at almost every meeting. If only I had understood the depth of that statement.
#2
Date: Sun, December XX, XXXX 1:45 pm
From: Anonymous
Dear Sir/ Madam,
I have enjoyed reading your material on the net concerning the AA cult. I spent 8 years of my life in this evil organisation. In that time I have seen many young men commit suicide, a direct result I believe of the program. I brought this subject up at meetings but of course they tried to put me down.
When I shared about being beaten by my parents as a child I was told to make amends to them! I just laughed loudly.
I have also seen sponsors, who think they're great spiritual masters, exploit women for sex. This is very common.
It is a difficult problem, as members believe deep down that they are right, that AA is perfect. Most disturbing of all is that they believe they will die if they leave AA, hence the appalling suicide rate. I live in XXXX, Ireland, but I believe AA is the same everywhere. Keep up the good work in exposing this evil cult.
Yours
Anonymous
***********************************************************
The above are unsolicited letters from readers of the Orange Papers that chose to write to Orange in emails and discuss their own experiences and thoughts on AA.
Orange responded to each one. I thank you Orange and salute you for your efforts.
I personally have no doubt in my mind that AA causes some AA members to suicide and that AA is, as a result of the AA religion, responsible for the suicides of some AA members. Not all, but some, and that is irresponsible and evil. This is my belief and it is real.
Comments
causeandeffect
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:55
Permalink
That's magical thinking at
That's magical thinking at its best clara, thinking that a splash of alcohol in your food is different than a splash of alcohol in you beverage. It's all the same thing. There's no molecular change when you put it in your food after cooking. It doesn't get cooked off.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 08:02
Permalink
Works for me, Cause. I use
Works for me, Cause. I use vanilla in baking and other extracts, I use toothpaste, and I have been known to have vinegar salad dressing. I eat yeast bread! I am fine with it.
I am equally sure that some others wouldn't be, but that is them.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 08:07
Permalink
Clara
1 + 1 = 2 ... Agreed?
You can drink what you want because you're NOT AN ALCOHOLIC .... Agreed?
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 08:13
Permalink
Well, I disagree with you,
Well, I disagree with you, Ben. But that is okay. I don't think you are any better than the AAs you rail against because you are trying to encourage someone to drink that shouldn't.
This is about food usage. I know people in AA that don't use mouthwashes, toothpastes, and scrutinze every label. They use n/a Kahlua syrup from Sam's for their coffee, will use rum in holiday cakes but willl microwave the three tablespoons that go in the glaze. Others won't for fear that the flavor alone will trigger them. I am not one of those.
And it is fine.
Say, I want one of those washer/spindryers that seem so popular in the UK. We no longer make them here, athough I had a a Hoover long ago. Why are they still so popular over there?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 08:30
Permalink
Don't be so fucking stupid
Drinking is a choice. Every person on the planet has the choice whether they drink or not. If you feel you want to drink because someone else encouraged you, that just means you are weak. What would Marietta say - she loves blaming victims.
Bill W says no alcohol at all. Was he wrong?
Alcohol abuse is a serious problem and can be fatal to many people. Can you not see how your "wannabe alcoholism" can seem so distasteful to so many people? You have mental problems Clara - any one who wants to be ill when they're not must have. Please accept alcohol abuse is not one of you problems and bugger off and get real help elsewhere.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 11:00
Permalink
Just because I wasn't a
Just because I wasn't a falling down drunk like you (just a crashing one - lol!) doesn't make someone a "wannabe alcoholic." Dunno why anyone would try to tell something that they aren't an alcoholic.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Brett
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 14:47
Permalink
wannabe alcoholic
why would anyone want a "disease" they don't have.
6 bloody beers, ya wouldn't read about it, it's just to bloody stupid for words.
Brett
Pennywise
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 08:15
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Clara, why don't you just
Clara, why don't you just promptly admit you were wrong when you said alcohol has no place in your body and revise your statement to say that alcohol has no place in your body UNLESS one of the exceptions you created applies? That would be the honest thing to do.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 10:57
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Because I don't really care
Because I don't really care about that, Penny. Some posters are hellbent on controlling others, and that isn't how it works for Clara. I think most people can tell the difference between drinking, and using toiletries or condiments. It's up to a person to make that choice for themselves.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 07:16
Permalink
Real slow for you ~
duplicate
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
causeandeffect
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 15:58
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So you mean people visit and
So you mean people visit an ass hole weekly? Why would anyone want to do that? Sounds more like cult leader worship to me. If I lived near that cemetery I'd be really unhappy. Why is it these people have no respect for anyone else?
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 16:00
Permalink
I wonder how often his kids
I wonder how often his kids show up?
"The paddle Dad used on us came from a game that had a ball with it. One end of the paddle was big and one end was little. Dad used the little end, the part that hurt like the dickens. Mom would use the big end; it didn't hurt so much for some reason. Well, Dad found out and he whittled it down so that both ends were the same. He always kept that paddle on an inside shelf of the bathroom closet. It was about a half-inch thick. Like I say, when we got it, we knew it." ~ Children Of The Healer; The Story Of Doctor Bob's Kids, Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows, page 49.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 16:15
Permalink
He was drinking then, wasn't
He was drinking then, wasn't he? I got hit with a paddle like that in 8th grade by a teacher. Things change over time.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 16:42
Permalink
Things might change over time,
Things might change over time, but the psychological scars of repeated savage beatings can last a lifetime.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 18:45
Permalink
Absolutely, Penny. And some
Absolutely, Penny. And some people cannot forgive or chose not to, which is their right.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 16:24
Permalink
Ah yes, the "I was drunk"
Ah yes, the "I was drunk" excuse.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 16:55
Permalink
Did you do things while
Did you do things while screwed up on drugs that you wouldn't do sober, Avo?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:12
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Do you think Dr. Bob
Do you think Dr. Bob beat his children only when he was drinking? He was methodical about it, to the point of modifying a classic children's toy into an instrument of pain. He did this because he was pissed that his wife wasn't beating the children ruthlessly enough. And remember, his fucked up behavior toward his kids didn't stop when he sobered up. He continued this controlling behavior well into his sobriety. Interestingly, his daughter, Sue, volunteered to testify against AA in the German Big Book lawsuit.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:20
Permalink
Clara asked: Did you do
Clara asked: Did you do things while screwed up on drugs that you wouldn't do sober, Avo?
This is a good question for the entire board. Specifically, while drunk or high, is there anyone here who sat down and modified objects so that they would inflict more physical suffering when used to beat children?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
causeandeffect
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:21
Permalink
No. Even my father never did
No. Even my father never did anything like that and he was an abusive man. He was also from that era and from that area, Akron. He never hit any of us with any objects that I'm aware of.
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Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:26
Permalink
They did at our school! Had
They did at our school! Had a paddle just like that, Penny.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:32
Permalink
Another example
The question was - did you use one, drunk or sober. Clara's answer is - normal deflecting bullshit.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:49
Permalink
I didn't. I yelled at my dog
I didn't. I yelled at my dog a few times, which made me feel bad enough.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:50
Permalink
Well I guess it makes it OK
Well I guess it makes it OK then. Sheesh, you Steppers will defend anything.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 18:00
Permalink
Who defended anyone, Penny?
Who defended anyone, Penny? I said what I hope he did to clean that up, if he could. I think many people do things they wish they had not under any number of circumstances, especially while drunk.
Sheesh, you people will continue something long after it's been answered.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 18:04
Permalink
You said your school
You said your school principal did it, as if that makes a difference or is even comparable. While paddling might have been acceptable years ago, I doubt it was cool even then to modify objects so that they would hurt more because your wife doesn't beat the kids hard enough. That's some seriously f'ed up thinking right there.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
avogadno
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:47
Permalink
The "I was drunk" excuse.
The "I was drunk" excuse.
Yeah, I made mistakes when I was high and I also fucked up when I wasn't high, but at no point did I beat my kids. I didn't make people get on their knees and pray before I would help them either.
Most of the time people do things DESPITE of their intoxicated state. That means that they would do them when they are sober too. What stops them (when they aren't under the influence) is the fear of being caught and punished. When we get fucked up we just don't care about or think about the consequences as much.
Dr. Bob was a child abuser. He was a sick SOB despite his alcohol addiction.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Ironic
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 21:38
Permalink
Lmao
Its fun watching Clara trying to rationalize beating your children.
gigi
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 16:32
Permalink
Are you trying to say that
Are you trying to say that getting paddled by a teacher (inexcusable, of course) is the same as being repeatedly brutalized by the man who is supposed to love, protect and care for you? Are you also trying to say that he is somehow absolved of all wrongdoing since he beat his kids when he was drunk? So he later got sober and the beatings are erased? Outta yer mind.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:00
Permalink
Nope, but I understand that
Nope, but I understand that people do things while drunk that they would never do sober. What I hope is that when he became sober, he apologized to his kids and asked what he could do, if anything, to make an amends. I also hope that he became a better person to them.
As for the teacher, that was an accepted disciplinary measure then. It wouldn't be today. People learn and things change.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 18:15
Permalink
I was a daily drinker for
I was a daily drinker for about 15 years. Never in all that time did I once hit a child or woman. That's because contrary to what you might hear at meetings, alcohol does not cause one's sense of morality to fly out the window.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
btnben
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 18:18
Permalink
100% right Penny
But try saying that at a meeting. I never stole, or got arrested, or lost a job, or resorted to any form of violence. In normal society, such behaviour is usually looked on with approval. In AA I was either lying or in denial. Tossers
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 18:20
Permalink
Moreover, Dr. Bob's abuse
Moreover, Dr. Bob's abuse toward his children was premeditated, as is demonstrated by the fact that he took the time to modify the weapon and constantly kept it on-hand in the closet for frequent access. Hence, the "he was drunk" defense is all the more inapplicable.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
avogadno
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 23:10
Permalink
Gigi, yeah it's a bit more
Gigi, yeah it's a bit more personal when Dad beats your ass for not eating your peas then when a school teacher paddles you for sticking a tack on her chair.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Pennywise
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 08:20
Permalink
Indeed. Think of it this way
Indeed. Think of it this way:
At some point, the good doctor thought, "you know, when my wife beats the kids, she doesn't inflict enough pain. One end of the paddle causes more pain than the other, and my wife always hits the kids with the end that hurts them less. This will not do. I think I'll take out my knife and whittle it down some. That way, the next time my wife or I decide to beat our children, I can have peace of mind knowing it will hurt real bad. Then I'll store the device in the closet so that it can be used over and over."
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
causeandeffect
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 16:18
Permalink
Children of the healer-
Children of the healer--healer my ass. AA had been proven to not work, yet people have to ride a bunch of noisy ass bikes through the neighborhood of the living, with no respect for them. That ass in that hole doesn't even know anybody's there. Why can't they just take quiet transportation. Was bob a biker?
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:03
Permalink
I didn't use that phrase.
I didn't use that phrase. Where are you getting it? I don't think Bob was a biker. Bill and Lois took their motorcycle trip, but I doubt they were 'bikers." I think it was just cheap transportation.
I am not sure where the grave is, Cause. I have no idea if there even are neighbors.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:15
Permalink
It's in the middle of a
It's in the middle of a neighborhood.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:18
Permalink
So be it. They must be used
So be it. They must be used to it, I guess. He's been dead a long time, and the site is on any number of sober bike sites.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 17:52
Permalink
They must be used to it, I
They must be used to it, I guess.
I bet Dr. Bob's kids sure got used to having the crap beaten out of them.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 16:14
Permalink
Not the same people, I feel
Not the same people, I feel confident to say. There are plenty of visitors to the area, and someone takes those on bikes to the cemetary if they want to go.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 19:15
Permalink
Flooding
Clara - don't you find it a bit strange that on this thread, and on most other threads, you have made over a quarter of the posts. You say nothing. You derail. You make ridiculous claims about being "diseased". Can't you understand that many people find this sort of behaviour unacceptable? And this from the person who is always critisising the behaviour of others. There's a word for it - begins with H.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
dolson
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 19:49
Permalink
Robo Troll
This and every other thread.
Tedious.
BTW - I just found out I have a Master's Degree. Found it under the seat of my motorcycle.
Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 21:14
Permalink
No, I don't find it strange.
No, I don't find it strange. I answer people that refer to me. I can't help that you don't feel that I am an alcoholic. I do. Who should that matter to the most?
I don't think that I derail. I think people scapegoat me about that, but that's their probllem. That you cannot have a simple discussion about something without some person attempting to be oh so witty by tossing in something about Clara. I don't have to post anything. Look at Brett's many posts about me on the Whiskey board. Look at the forums that were created for me. I think you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction, Ben. Look at Patti, literally humping my leg to get notice. Sorry. I felt we had been over those topics, and I don't think a "newcomer" comes on as strong as she did to one person.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Ironic
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 21:42
Permalink
I agree with Clara
If you ignore her she may go away
Clara
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 21:50
Permalink
I think it people just
I think it people just focused on topics verses personalities, it wouldn't matter who anyone was.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
jonnijoy
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 05:35
Permalink
It's a landmark, Cause. How
It's a landmark, Cause. How
Clara said ;It's a landmark, Cause. How long have these people been buried there? You purchased your home, knowing that it is there. If Abe Lincoln were buried there, would you feel differently? It is because it is Dr. Bob?
JJ says; Thats soo true Clara. Everytime Jr Harris or anybody else talks about how horrible stepping stones is for the locals, I always wonder why they moved next to it in the first place. I think i will move next to Yankee stadium and bitch and complain about the traffic. And of course anybody who moved near stepping stones knew it was there in advance. lol
JR Harris
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 05:43
Permalink
Just because you move next to a bunch of Alcoholics
Doesn't mean that when they turn into occultists and start hold weird occult ceremonies and ritual chanting doesn't mean that you have to put up with it.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/58341665/Occult-Crimes
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
jonnijoy
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:04
Permalink
Thats your answer Jr. Harris?
Thats your answer Jr. Harris?? You move next to stepping stones and you expect it all to change just for you? Do you think those peoples real estate agents failed to mention the giant elephant down the street?? Nobody told them? They had no idea that stepping stones was on their block?? Get real
JR Harris
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 06:27
Permalink
They did not move next to a pilgrimage mecca at first
The neighbors had no reason to believe that a bunch of occultists with weird rituals would increase the number of ceremonies. This changed after the owner Lois Wilson died. The neighbors had no idea that they would be making it into a shrine, it is not zoned for it and one neighbor has been there for 28 years.
Source:http://bedford.patch.com/articles/stepping-stones-to-rework-protocol-for...
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
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