Uncomplicating things...step by step.

Becket, I do completely respect the fact that your experience and mine were VERY different, I don't want that misunderstood. I've known many who had a much more benign experience with 12 step programs, some who went completely voluntarily and some less so. I don't know, I do take breaks from even thinking at all about it, it's no longer the immediate trauma that it was when I first started talking about it (actually, when I found the ST blog). I stay involved because it really bothers me what happened to so many people I saw destroyed, by what was done to me and what others here have shared with me of their experiences. It's simply not necessary to retraumatize people to the degree that is currently being done in so much of the recovery industry.

I don't consider myself a victim, I survived and am a stronger person for that. A lot of what I do is because of a few really horrible cases of people who didn't survive who I saw beaten down. I understand that that is not what you want to do with your life, as you say not feeling a duty to make things right for others. Right now I just don't feel that that's the right path for me.

But yes, I have also found over the years that forums are remarkable places to hone your writing skills, and silver linings are beautiful things indeed.

That is a question I have asked. For example, Soberman certainly doesn't sound like someone that could be bullied, and he didn't like the AA bit. Didn't do the steps, didn't buy into it, yet he stayed for decades and helped others. I ask the question out of genuine confusion. And if I hated something, I can assure that once i made the break, horses couldn't drag me into a room. Look at Amasive. Everytime she goes, she comes back and vents on the board about how she hates AA. Fine, in a way... But she isn't going to wean herself from the program. It just seems so self defeating. If she could say that every listened, spellbound by her revelations, and they all clapped her on the back, took down the sign on the door, and left with her... that might be something. But it sounds more as if they use a hook to get her away from the podium. There is effective activism, but this doesn't sound like it. She never did elaborate how her protest went.

I'm not sensitive to the bits (lol) about "why xx spent so long in AA", because they weren't questions posed at me. It can be a fair question, as you pointed out, but becomes a "bit" when repeatedly thrown out into discussions that relate to people not even involved in the current discussion. I can't explain Soberman's reasoning, and another's lack of understanding it is not my fault.

"Choose to withhold clarity"? lmao, that really is funny! And it gets even better when you said that I "just pissed on one more opportunity to make yourself heard".

You don't fool me becket, your questions weren't about clarity. You don't care about the feelings of a former AA and don't want to understand why people don't leave [in a suitable] time frame. You wanted to derail the topic, make it about another persons lack of courage or wisdom or bullshit. As far as your concerned, if you don't understand another's feelings it's because they are lying. Even if you did understand, you wouldn't admit to it unless it was a neutral subject (not related to the program).

Furthermore, you can't stand to be called out for these tactics you use. I can tell your responses.

Avo, because there IS nothing wrong with it. We all know people who have continually relapsed until they were finally out of AA, until they finally tried something else. There are many more that we don't know about. One thing we will never, ever know is how many people have died from their addictions that could have been helped by a different approach. AA claims their primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety. That's not true. If it were, they'd have absolutely no problem with telling people that there are alternatives. Yet as we have discovered, they tear down notices of SMART meetings when they happen across them. Their primary purpose is to keep people in AA at all costs--even death. There's only one reason for that. It's a cult.

I've only done this once, and I don't know if it was worthwhile or not, but it was an attempt of sorts. I wish I could talk to people who were in the treatment process as well, though. Just to give people a little hope. I think it's worthwhile. Some people feel absolutely hopeless in treatment/early recovery. I couldn't obviously advise any of these people (but then again, they're getting advice from people whose only "expertise" is working "the program"), but the message is just SO strong that it's going to be THIS life, a life of meetings and 12 steps or else you'll die or end up in the jails or the mental hospital. I know the idea is to do a "scared straight" sort of number on some people, but much of the time it just scares people half to death.