AA and the Non-Believer

Whilst 12 Step Programs require a belief in God, Alcoholics Anonymous claims to be non-discriminatory on matters of belief for the purposes of membership.

Third Tradition: The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

However, whilst Atheist and Agnostic members are tolerated, the sobriety of the non-believer challenges the very assumptions that underpin the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous:
‘(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.’ - p60

Chapter 4 of the basic text of Alcoholics Anonymous, We Agnostics, demonstrates the contempt for the non-believer that is at the core of the Program, its beliefs and values.

Alcoholics Anonymous attributes the following traits to the non-believer:

1. The non-believer is prejudiced
· ‘We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p46
· ‘Besides a seeming inability to accept much on faith, we often found ourselves handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p48
· ‘We, who have travelled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p55

2. The non-believer is intolerant
· ‘We talked of intolerance, while we were intolerant ourselves. We never gave the spiritual side of life a fair hearing.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p50

3. The non-believer is arrogant
· ‘Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God’s ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn’t it?’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘We used to amuse ourselves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p55
· ‘True humility and an open mind can lead us to faith, and every A.A. meeting is an assurance that God will restore us to sanity if we rightly relate ourselves to Him.’ - 12 x 12, p33

4. The non-believer is antagonistic
· ‘Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things made us bristle with antagonism. This sort of thinking had to be abandoned.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p48

5. The non-believer is unreasonable
· ‘Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness. Sometimes this was a tedious process; we hope no one else will be prejudiced for as long as some of us were.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p48
· ‘We asked ourselves this: Are not some of us just as biased and unreasonable about the realm of the spirit as were the ancients about the realm of the material?’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p51

6. The non-believer is illogical
· ‘When, however, the perfectly logical assumption is suggested that underneath the material world and life as we see it, there is an All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence, right there our perverse streak comes to the surface and we laboriously set out to convince ourselves it isn’t so.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘We read wordy books an indulge in windy arguments, thinking we believe this universe needs no God to explain it. Were our contentions true, it would follow that life originated out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds nowhere.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about. Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception whatever.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘Hence we are at pains to tell why we think our present faith is reasonable, why we think it more sane and logical to believe than not to believe, why we say our former thinking was soft and mushy when we threw up our hands in doubt and said, “We don’t know.”’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p53

Comments

causeandeffect's picture

JR, I do believe that some take on the role of "token atheists" in AA. And some people may accept them, but most won't. They will occasionally hold themselves out as proof that you don't need a higher power in AA and/or proof of "tolerance". But, as Kate said, it challenges their belief system when they manage to remain sober so they will always be subject to some ridicule from some members, which they may or may not deny.

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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

I never pretended to be an atheist. But I did pretend to believe in God. That didn't work out too well. :)

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Persephone In Exile's picture

I even turned to God. The Christian one. Maybe he loves me, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he exists, maybe not. I find that I rarely care anymore. The only deity that ever served me was Ate, I blame her for leading me astray. Just like Agamemnon. It makes as much sense as anything they told me in xA. Quite a bit more, actually, and I've gained much more from that sort of study, even if it's not a belief system that I personally hold.

Edit: I won't say that Eris didn't also have a role, and perhaps even that pesky Aphrodite.

becket's picture

They "prey to some outside unseen force" - really funny.

"Exposing the lairs of AA" - downright hilarious.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

You have to remember the last part of the quote to have it make an impact. So tell me, since you haven't been to a meeting in 22 years (or so you claim, you wouldn't lie would you?) how do you know what AA is like today?

Exposing the lairs of AA, one lie at a time.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

Are you kidding? I have a front row seat right here on the Orange Papers Forum! This is where it's all happening - the dirt, the shit, the gossip and libel. I wouldn't miss it!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

The roomz of AA is where it is happening judge No Balls. The gossip, the dirt, the slander, the sexual assaults and other predatory behaviors, 13 steppin, the AA lies and innuendo.

And, let's not forget the main AA coming attraction, Miracles. Performed in church basements and meeting halls nearby.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

Wait a minute . . . didn't I read something posted just the other day by Orange himself that had what some might call a humorous twist to it? Yes . . . yes, I'm sure it was Orange. No, I didn't find it particularly funny, but others appreciated the lightheartedness of it. So if Orange can kid, and so many others here can kid, I'm just going to assume that, until Orange tells me otherwise, I can kid, too. And honestly, I was exclaiming, "Are you kidding?!" to JR Harris, as his statements to me were uproariously funny. It would appear JR needs some admonishing, too, while you're at it, because he is an indefatigable kidder.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

I was kidding about the no kidding. Humor is good judge, but you have not been to meeting for 22 years so that makes you a dry drunk. That, by AA definition, makes you angry and sour and one pissed off hombre. Don't go into denial now and deny it. oh, and AA kills people. goodnight judge, I have a real career.

Since Bill W broke 3 of the jeffe's commandents is Bill W haning in hell with boniface?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

I wouldn't say I'm a dry drunk. I'd just say I'm sober or, if you prefer, abstinent. Everyone has a complete spectrum of emotions, including anger. Perhaps all dry drunks are angry, but not all angry people are dry drunks. Oh, and I may be tough but I ain't no "hombre".

"Since Bill W broke 3 of the jeffe's commandents is Bill W haning in hell with boniface?"

Do you mean "commandants"? And what, sir, is "haning"?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

kidding is allowed!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

I can smell it, live_free_or_die - you stepped in your own shit while trying to dance around it. ^^

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

Your nose and sense of smell have a defect. Insane unemployed stepper that you are.

Not only that but you, No Balls becket, have been inflicted with the spiritual disease of AA. All of your defects judge, how do you cope? by miracles?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

BB Kate's picture

But in my city, getting sober is not the only thing that matters within AA.

One of our area groups requested that the Atheist and Freethinkers group be banned on the basis that "if there's no God, it's not AA". They were unsuccessful.

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

becket's picture

I actually think that's a good idea.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

I don't, actually. If I was an AA, I mean. My religious status is not anyone's business and shouldn't matter, according to them. That it does take a role is bad enough.

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Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

BB Kate's picture

At the last AA meeting i went to i introduced myself as saying" My name is Kate, and i haven't had a problem with alcohol for 6 years".

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

becket's picture

The god/not god bell has already been rung. It can't be silenced - too late. Maybe they should have religious meetings and atheist meetings and agnostic meetings, just like they do for impaired health providers and drunken bankers.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asMJuQHE0AU

No 12 step billshit for Kid Rock!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

jonnijoy's picture

Jr Harris, who do you think made those 10 commandments? Man did! just like he made the 12 steps.

You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.
I like how he says in the 10th commandment That you cant have his slaves or his donkey lmao! I guess god could not see into the future. If he could have he would have known that slavery was going to be illegal in the future. He also would have stated cars and tractors instead of ox and donkey.

JR Harris's picture

As a good christian that follows the Ten Commandments, she should be ashamed of herself for promoting a program that breaks them so blatantly. By the way, did you know that the Ten Commandments are followed by Christians, Jews and Muslims?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

avogadno's picture

God could have mentioned cars, tractors, planes and computers, but no one would have known or been able to comprehend what he was talking about. It's been within the last 100 years or so that both have been invented and using those as examples would have led to about 3300 years of confusion.

As JR said, the point is that AA insults numerous religions, many of which abide by the 10 Commandments. Being a member of good standing in AA and Christianity is not compatible.

Your personal opinion about religion is irrelevant to this discussion.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

How does AA "insult" the Ten Commandments?

Failure can only occur when you stop typing. :)

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

The 1st two commandments. "I am the Lord thy God" and "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". HE is the God. Not someone else, not a group of people, and if one believes in these commandments then that person can NOT accept being part of a group that some members might be using as their deity. No strict (or even not terribly strict) adherent of any of the Abrahamic faiths can be "prayed to" as deities (being put on the level with the One Triune God), which is exactly what happens when people say that they are "using the group" as their higher power.

I was so shocked by this that I ended up taking this issue to 3 different Catholic Priests, one a Monsignor, and all agreed that that practice was (in their opinion) sacrilegious.

becket's picture

First of all, what you are calling the first two commandments really combine to make the first commandment. (It's been a long time, but I think the second is Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.)

So anyone who puts his stock in a doorknob or the group, whether he gets sober or not, is a loser because he will roast in Hell (Protestantism) or Purgatory (Catholicism) to burn off the false gods thing? That's pretty stout. It's already been mentioned several times the abject desperation some people bring with them into AA. Could it be maybe a little too much decorum to ask them to please check their doorknob or the belief in group unity at the door? Maybe they trust a doorknob more than they did the god of their understanding before they came in. Maybe as they move through the steps and stay away from the booze their understanding of god evolves and develops in a positive direction in which they can then abandon the "placeholder" god and replace it with a new and improved god.

Would the priests and the Monsignor have preferred that the one using the doorknob or the group as a higher power simply walk out the door and live under the sway of booze for maybe the rest of his life? Would their shorts be so tight that they could not imagine a pathway from the doorknob or group to a genuine relationship with a loving God? And what would a Baptist minister think? What would any Protestant preacher or pastor think? What about a rabbi - what would he think? Catholics don't have the only set of keys to the wheels, you know.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

conveniently omitting is that Bill W broke at least three of the ten commandments from god.

I guess Bill W is in hell.

judge no balls becket, how many sets of keys to the chariot are there?

http://godstenlaws.com/ten-commandments/index.html

Commandments? What a croc of shit!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

Nobody asked me about Bill Wilson, and if they had my answer would be "That's between Bill and God."

How many keys are there? How many people are there? It's up to each person to determine whether his or hers is a key or a slug. I suppose if there are 7 billion people on this planet, there are 7 billion keys.

Why must you carry such a heavy load of stinking shit with you? Just put it down and get on with life.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

: )

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

avogadno's picture

Your assuming that they would drink if they didn't use a door or group as their HP, something that even if it were true could be because they joined a group that told them they needed a HP to begin with.

The very point is that addiction is a serious illness and AA says ya need to have a HP to quit (which isn't true). Says it isn't religious (which isn't true). Then has AA apologists like yourself suggesting to critics that they are offending the religious beliefs of the AA's by simply explaining their point in their own defense.

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Persephone In Exile's picture

Actually, one of the priests DID get sober on his own, long before rejoining the church. And the Monsignor in question spent hours (and continues to do so) counseling a great many parishioners about their problems, and is the last person I can imagine turning someone away. He is just extremely busy with his own flock, as is any head pastor, so he's not really out there talking to many who aren't Catholic.

Heavens no, I don't think the RC has the only set of keys here, and as for myself did return to agnosticism followed by final acceptance that I am an atheist. That doesn't change the fact that I ran this theological matter by several people who have studied much more about Christian theology than I have, not to mention than most people here. That said, I'm sure that a Rabbi or Imam would feel rather the same way about allowing oneself to be used as someone else's higher power. I didn't bring this up to any Imams, but do have such a large number of Muslim friends that I did bring it up to them as well, and they also understood my objection. Of course, the more devout of them also don't believe in drinking alcohol, so AA as an entire concept is completely foreign to them.

I think personal opinions about religion may be really relevant to the discussion. I believe that johnnyjoy is right-man wrote the commandments and the Bible just as certainly that Bill W. wrote the BB. They are both religious texts written by human beings, touted as the truth and used to get closer to God. There is danger in that. I don't mean that there is danger in the belief that God exists. That's cool. I mean that there is danger in the belief that my religion is better than your religion. That you can't believe THIS because This over here is REALLY the truth. AA may insult many religions but not more so than many religions already insult eachother.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

becket's picture

Agreed, gigi.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

BB Kate, this is the best synopsis of "We Agnostics" I've seen so far. It's extremely insulting and condescending. I really don't know how atheists tolerate this in AA. I have personally witness AA's intolerance for agnostics and atheists. Personally when I'm trying to make the point, I've quoted this bit of toxicity from the 12&12

"Let's look first at the case of the one who says he won't believe -- the belligerent one. He is in a state of mind which can be described only as savage."
12&12 p.25, Step Two

I'm going to bookmark this page because I don't really want to venture back in to "We Agnostics" to pull out this tripe in the future. Thanks Kate!

I used to believe in God, but AA brought the whole idea into the theatre of the absurd for me. I dunno, something happened. I can't believe anymore. Meh.

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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

BB Kate's picture

And there's this from good ol' Joe and Charlie:

I think probably most of us were agnostic. Because you see an agnostic is one who believes that God exists, but then he acts as if he doesn't. He acts exactly like the atheist. He runs his own show, stands on his own two feet, runs his own destiny and turns to no other power for help. He gets the same results, nothing. Even though he believes that God exists, he acts as if he doesn't.

http://clubtnt.org/big_book/believing_in_god.htm

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

becket's picture

I bet plenty of atheists go to the bank for a loan.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

jonnijoy's picture
dorak nob's picture

One of the meetings I went to an old man attended who was an atheist , everyone knew it and gave him a hard time , he was picked on many times to say the prayer at end of meeting, of course giggles could be heard. I felt sorry for him , and I could see the old timers pushing him to believe in God. It's been a while but I wouldn't be surprised if he converted.

avogadno's picture

And the poor guy only wanted to get sober. Too bad he had to go through that.

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dorak nob's picture

you are so right. thats whats wrong with AA, just want to get sober end up a slogan spouting religious nutcase.

jonnijoy's picture

Avagado says:God could have mentioned cars, tractors, planes and computers, but no one would have known or been able to comprehend what he was talking about. It's been within the last 100 years or so that both have been invented and using those as examples would have led to about 3300 years of confusion.;
JJ says; It was a joke that went right over your head. :) Ps. dont get so worked up! I cant help it if you believe in a magical man in the sky.

avogadno's picture

lololol. Men always say they were just kidding! Most of time it occurs when they go a little too far with a sexual comment and get called on it though...No worries, I really wasn't worked up. Religious topics can get much more out of hand, as I'm sure you know.

JJ said: "I cant help it if you believe in a magical man in the sky".

Neither can I.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Shit blasphemy....hell awaits....

Persephone In Exile's picture

BB Kate, this is absolutely fascinating to me. I was in my "religious" period when I first read (and the last time I read) the AA texts, so it didn't strike me quite the same way it does now. Very well done, thank you for writing this up.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Steven Fry (with a Bit of Laurie) discussing religion in several clips I love (Heads up, Ben!):

http://youtu.be/7jPKnF74b4A

btnben's picture

I think they're both great. Two of the best adverts we've got at the moment...lol. Do you watch QI?. It's the only TV program I watch religiously...lol. Intelligent humour is unbeatable. Steven Fry losing control...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xetdrQX9Xoo

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Persephone In Exile's picture

No, I've only just discovered it! I can't wait to see more. I LOVE Steven Fry. Here's one of my favorite Fry moments from Bit of Fry and Laurie:
http://youtu.be/3lb581YGhDY

I really want to see QI, and am not sure where it stands now, but there have been petitions and attempts to get it here in the US for a few years now. Of course, I'd watch David Tennant do just about anything and Fry as well, so I'm biased even before the intelligent humor factor comes in...lol.

btnben's picture

I've just watched one - tonight's useless info - Orange used to be called Norange - a norange became an orange

Each series of QI is based on a letter of the alphabet ( series 1,A;series 2,B; 3, C etc). They've just finished the Is (lucky that was series 9, my fingers only go up to 10...lol). There are a lot of them on YouTube or if you're one of those disgraceful illegal downloaders they are on PirateBay - ooops - so I've heard (what a giveaway...lol)

Addition : Another great video from Steven Fry is the debate he took part in at the Oxford Union. Anti-religion, but still his own style in a serious debate.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

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