AA and the Non-Believer

Whilst 12 Step Programs require a belief in God, Alcoholics Anonymous claims to be non-discriminatory on matters of belief for the purposes of membership.

Third Tradition: The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

However, whilst Atheist and Agnostic members are tolerated, the sobriety of the non-believer challenges the very assumptions that underpin the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous:
‘(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.’ - p60

Chapter 4 of the basic text of Alcoholics Anonymous, We Agnostics, demonstrates the contempt for the non-believer that is at the core of the Program, its beliefs and values.

Alcoholics Anonymous attributes the following traits to the non-believer:

1. The non-believer is prejudiced
· ‘We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p46
· ‘Besides a seeming inability to accept much on faith, we often found ourselves handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p48
· ‘We, who have travelled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p55

2. The non-believer is intolerant
· ‘We talked of intolerance, while we were intolerant ourselves. We never gave the spiritual side of life a fair hearing.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p50

3. The non-believer is arrogant
· ‘Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God’s ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn’t it?’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘We used to amuse ourselves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p55
· ‘True humility and an open mind can lead us to faith, and every A.A. meeting is an assurance that God will restore us to sanity if we rightly relate ourselves to Him.’ - 12 x 12, p33

4. The non-believer is antagonistic
· ‘Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things made us bristle with antagonism. This sort of thinking had to be abandoned.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p48

5. The non-believer is unreasonable
· ‘Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness. Sometimes this was a tedious process; we hope no one else will be prejudiced for as long as some of us were.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p48
· ‘We asked ourselves this: Are not some of us just as biased and unreasonable about the realm of the spirit as were the ancients about the realm of the material?’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p51

6. The non-believer is illogical
· ‘When, however, the perfectly logical assumption is suggested that underneath the material world and life as we see it, there is an All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence, right there our perverse streak comes to the surface and we laboriously set out to convince ourselves it isn’t so.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘We read wordy books an indulge in windy arguments, thinking we believe this universe needs no God to explain it. Were our contentions true, it would follow that life originated out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds nowhere.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about. Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception whatever.’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p49
· ‘Hence we are at pains to tell why we think our present faith is reasonable, why we think it more sane and logical to believe than not to believe, why we say our former thinking was soft and mushy when we threw up our hands in doubt and said, “We don’t know.”’ - Alcoholics Anonymous, p53

Comments

avogadno's picture

I grew up close to one of their churches and they walked the alleys around school. Out of respect we were under strict orders not to look at or say anything to them. It was kind of hard not to watch them (or hear them) walk by though.

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Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

It seems that calling them Harry Christians is contrary to the Live and Let Live philosophy simply by virtue of the denigration built into the phrase. Do I misunderstand you here?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

That's true actually. And although it got a couple of giggles I actually just got the spelling wrong. I even googled it and that is what came up with a brief description. It honestly wasn't meant with any malice.

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Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
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I still don't understand what belief/non-belief in God/higher power/whatever has to do with drinking or not drinking. What is the connection? It makes no sense to me.

avogadno's picture

It doesn't have to make sense flannigan, just have faith that faith will work in stopping you from drinking.

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becket's picture

Is there a distinction between faith and willpower?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Depends on where we place our faith. If I have faith in myself, believe that I can accomplish something, work dilligently to get what I want, and take personal responsibility in my endeavor; my faith becomes an extension of my willpower. If I place my faith entirely in the hands of an outside entity, make no attempt to put any work into achieving my goals, then expect to get the results I desire simply because of my faith; I've abdicated personal responsibility and should brace for a big dissapointment.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

I have never thought that as a believer, it relieved me of any responsibility to do my best or to set goals and do what it took to reach them. I was watching a show the other day of a Minnesota or Michigan family with a ton of kids, a la Dugger. The mother was talking about how she and her husband afforded this family, and one example was how she would come home and find bags of clothes that people would leave on their porch. Instead of feeling gratitude for the generosity of the people for their gifts, she described it as God's way of providing for her family...

My father always believed in a loving, giving God, but he also believed he had been given gifts to be utilized and to not do so would be to fail Him.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

If you believe in that stuff it comes true, you should have just done your time instead of going on probation for 3 years and learning to chant Bill Wilson. The 12 Steps are against the teachings of any religion. Smarten up, get back to church and repent for trying to push the pagan steps of Bill Wilson on people. Also please quit lying so much, you're making the rest of the cult of look bad.

My views are to expose the lies and liars of AA, one lie and liar at a time.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Yeah, the Duggars...Yikes. I think that most people with faith in God probably see it the same way that you and your father do Clara. I was talking more about the folks who wait around because "God will provide." I am reminded of a woman I heard share in a meeting a few times. She went on one day about how her life, and more specifically, her sobriety was completely in the hands of God. I remember my big WTF moment when she said (and she was deadly serious) that she has no control over whether she drinks or not: "If God wants me to be sober, I'll be sober. If God decides that I should get drunk tomorrow, I have no control over that. It's not up to me." Talk about powerless. Yikes.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

causeandeffect's picture

Yeah, gigi, that woman is a relapse waiting to happen. The least little temptation will be a sign from gawd to drink. And I've heard similar things. Yikes is right. Talk about having no personal responsibility whatsoever.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

Here's that pesky either/or shit again.

What about the person who places his faith entirely in the hands of an outside entity (say, the God of his understanding), then throws all his energy into achieving his goals and manages to enjoy the fruits of his labor, the results he desired? He would attribute that to the generosity of his God. You would attribute that to his hard work. What does it matter? He is free to believe God inspired him to achieve. And your take on his success is immaterial.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

Yet, if he did all that without placing his faith entirely in the hands of an outside entity (say, the God of his understanding) AA would claim he's just ego-driven.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

So what? How does that affect you in any way whatever?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

Did you work today becket, or are you unemployed?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

Yes, live_free_or_die, I did work today.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

You cant win an argument or have a discussion with someone on a mission from God. Science and physics do not apply in Gods world.
There is one who has all power, that one is God, may you find him now. Most would realize that this entity with all power could repair the afflicted so that they could drink with impunity. Not for the AA member, their God would punish them with abstinence, powerlessness, and the prospect of death.
To dismiss AA is to dismiss The Bible and all religion. We remain a primitive people steadfast in our lack of understanding of the universe.
It is TABOO to question God or religion; it is politically incorrect and illegal in some countries.
With sticks and Alano Clubs we find comfort in our God, sure that our purpose is the greater good.
AA wins.
Program in force.

becket's picture

"Science and physics do not apply in Gods world."

Religious people might be among the first to suggest that science and physics had their genesis in God's world.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

religion makes all things possible.

becket's picture

No, that was not the point of my post. The point was that atheists and perhaps agnostics believe man invented or discovered everything on the planet. Religious people believe that God created everything on the planet, to be either invented or discovered by man.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Atheists believe in evolution, the big bang, cause and effect, you know, plausible scientific theory proven with experimentation and physical evidence.

Religious people place faith in archaic historical accounts and magical divine intelligence.

In science we are required to back our findings with physical proof.

In religion we are allowed to make up changes and rules as we go, this is the case with Bill Wilson and the Big Book. It is an inclusion of all faiths and the lack there of bundled into a one size cures all contradiction of terms for impaired folks.

AA works for 5% of the people who get busy with it as a method of diversion from their problem. You know, damaged people who fit nowhere else in society. I am glad it is there.

becket's picture

I believe your understanding of "religious people" is extremely narrow. Most people I know who have some sort of religious life do not believe the "big bang" and God's creation of the universe to be mutually exclusive. There is a place for science in a life of faith. For my money, the big bang truly occurs when an individual comes to that very realization.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

read the original post, this reply is out of context.

becket's picture

"Ad hominem" and "out of context" are not anywhere near the same thing. There is absolutely nothing disingenuous, hateful, or misconstrued in my post. What are you referring to?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

BB Kate's picture

But if everything needed to be created, who do they believe created God?

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

Man???

becket's picture

Do you honestly believe anyone on this forum, religious or not, would have any plausible answer to that question, BB Kate?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

I'm sure if you asked "them", "they" would have an answer for you. Why would God have to have been created? If God is all that, he run th' enti universe, man, he don' need no inventin' or creatin'.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

Judge No Balls, are you one of the many unemployed steppers?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

I seem to recall responding to this just moments ago: I did work today, live_free_or_die. Are you having problems with your Hooked On Phonics again?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

Then what is troubling you so? Are you concerned about the work that I do? Are you afraid I might pick up a drink and lose everything? Fear not, little friend. All is well with becket.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

pigs arse, welfare grabbing aint work. get a real job

Brett

becket's picture

I have never been on welfare, Brett. Do they have welfare in your country?

What qualifies as a "real job" in your estimation?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Dear Becket
Your rebuttals to posts on OP commonly reverse statements made by the original poster or use ad-hominem tactics to derail the discussion. You are not a sincere participant on OP forum or blog.

becket's picture

Please explain how I "reversed" anything in response to Brett's post. I think you're wanting to read my posts as ad hominem "attacks". Are you looking for justification for your dislike of me, or does hatred just come naturally to you, without thought or conscience?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

bludged, cheated, rorted,ripped off & scammed the lot have ya, y'ud fit right in with bills mates, none of them ever have a real job either.

Brett

live_free_or_die's picture

.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

*

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

; )

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

dandammit's picture

%

avogadno's picture

?

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

dandammit's picture

!

avogadno's picture

Now that we have that settled! lol :)

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

avogadno's picture

After all that time trying to get convince someone that they to need to believe in a HP in order to quit drinking they could have instilled in them having faith in themselves. It is how people do it anyway.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
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Persephone In Exile's picture

Maybe its time the atheists in AA (a contradiction if I ever saw one!), started introducing themselves as ATHEISTS and THEN "alcoholic"! That would raise a few eyebrows!

Clara's picture

I don't imagine anyone would care. I know people in the fellowship that are atheist and don't mind if someone knows it. And others don't mind, either. The only thing that matters is getting sober if you want that.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

They may be pretending to be Atheists, but if they believe that it helps to prey to some outside unseen force, they are not atheists. I will admit that many of the court or DMV coerced AA members like yourself Clara, will either do it or go to jail. You claim to be religious, which is fine, but you are breaking many of the Ten Commandments by promoting the pagan, occultist program of Bill Wilson. Shame on you.

Exposing the lairs of AA, one lie at a time.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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