Uncomplicating things...step by step.

I always hated the powerless part. It was one of the things that was pointed out time and time again in my meetings as well. It may have some use to somebody who is in their first few days and who is finding it difficult to stay stopped. It is fair to say to someone in that state that if they start then they will probably go on a binge. That is not the case for somebody who has stayed stopped or years and I feel that the AA message that you are always an alcoholic is very negative and the powerless
part is setting you up for faliure. Many will experience a stressful time and head off on a binge because they have not really sorted their life out by working the program.
Myself and many other have given up smoking years ago and would never consider ourselves powerless over that or call ourselves smokers on a daily basis. In fact that would be considered a very negative self image if I was to project that on myself. I would rather think of myself as somebody who is fit and who regularly runs and works out as that is the reality of my life today.
What I did in the past is done, and I have moved on and generally become much more positive in outlook. I do not drink because I have seen the damage it can do and I don\'t like being around drunks,not because I am powerless over it. I do not wish to take the risk of slipping back into my old ways, but that is different to feeling powerless and having to fight it.
I have certainly experienced a whole load of stress in recent years generally due to work and my partner\'s health who has been very Ill but I have not needed anything like AA to keep me sober, in fact quite the opposite and so I can really say I have put myself to the test. AA can make you feel very negative about yourself and the doom and gloom members can really add to it. Those people are powerless due to the message they have rammed into their heads meeting after meeting, not those of us who have walked away to find saner solutions that help build a better self image and a more positive outlook.

“My way of living gets me scared, alone, drunk and suicidal.”

This is just propaganda to make one feel afraid that they can’t go it alone and must adopt the 12 step way of life and have someone else dictate to them how they should live. In reality, it was not my way of living that caused a problem: it was my way of drinking that caused a problem. I had lived many years my way without any issues. Many people live the way I did without drinking to excess. It was, in actuality, my way of drinking that had caused a problem.

“Do I have the desperation of a drowning man tonight?”

I was desperate to get sober. Absolutely. This is the factor that the AA apologists fail to recognize when they ask why we stayed in the program. We were desperate, and AA filled us with the fear of death if we didn’t do what the program said must be done. In all reality is was the desperation to stay sober, not the steps, that made me get and stay sober.

“When I start drinking do I have little control over the amount I take? When drinking, do I crave another drink, then another...?”

I honestly don’t know the answer to this question. The only time I had ever tried to cut back on how much I drank, I was successful in doing so. It wasn’t difficult at all, but the grand mal seizure I had at work was a bit discouraging, so the experiment didn’t last very long.

“Have I ever tried to quit entirely and found that I started again, no matter how many promises I made, willpower I tried to summon...DUI\\\\\\\'s, jails,rehabs, meetings, family conflict etc...”

This is nothing more than more cult propaganda to lead people to believe they can’t do it without the cult. Many people have a few failed attempts before they are successful. It wasn’t until I did utilize my willpower that I was able to stay sober. Relying on a higher power was what was useless. Once I used my willpower to abstain for long enough, my cravings and urges to drink subsided and eventually disappeared.

“Am I having trouble with: family? friends? jobs? mood swings? depression? anger? loneliness? fear/anxiety? uselessness?”

I did have problems with some of those, but not all of them. Most of those problems were caused by my drinking and became irrelevant when I quit drinking and got on some good medication. And I’m certain, that if I had been prescribed that same medication years before, I would have never felt the need to over-indulge in the first place.

“Based on everything I\\\'ve considered here, can I now say that I am powerless over alcohol and my life is unmanageable?”

While my life had become unmanageable, I obviously was not powerless because I was able to quit drinking. If one is truly powerless, they would be unable to stay sober long enough to work the steps. This is just more cult indoctrination to make one feel they need AA and nothing more. But powerlessness doesn’t even end at drinking. Then you are told that you are also powerless over people, places and things which means you can never be an effective agent in your own life, you need others, who are equally powerless over people, places and things in their own lives, to tell you how to run your life. I can’t imagine how futile my life would have been if I had been raised to believe such nonsense.

Becket, everybody is vulnerable to the effects of alcohol.

\"We were desperate, and AA filled us with the fear of death if we didn’t do what the program said must be done.\"

Desperate for 20 years, msafrany? Desperate for 40 years, soberman?

Not buyin it.

The desperation does fade, but the threat of relapse and jails, institutions and death is what keeps people in the program.

I don\'t think the steps need to be torn apart singly. They are meant for indoctrination into a cultist religion and are used to break people down emotionally and psychologically to get them needy of the group, program, and of God. They have not been proven to help people quit drinking, yet the process is known to be used by religions and cults. In Catholicism it is called a sacrament. In cults it\'s called thought reform.

I\'d like to compare other quit drink programs to cult indoctrination processes, and see what is more similar to steppism.

I hardly feel this even needs to be argued, as the best argument I've ever read for how these methods are used to indoctrinate people are already in The Orange Papers. Becket et al, why don't you pull up point by point where you think Orange was incorrect? Just take a look at what he wrote here:
http://orange-papers.org/orange-bait-switch.html

Have you guys even read this, or are you just here to argue with people who don't like xA? Because it really seems like the latter, unless you are delving into Clancy, Bill W. and other random bits of AA history or perhaps Vaillant. Otherwise it doesn't seem much like you've gone farther than to play the "well, no one had a gun to your head!" game.