Too full-on?

BB Kate's picture
Submitted by BB Kate on Mon, 04/30/2012 - 00:05

I spoke with someone i knew from AA last week. He still goes to an atheist meeting but not much else, and we have spoken extensively about out time in AA, and the perils we and others encountered.

He said something strange last week though. He thought that Orange, BlameDenial and myself were perhaps being a little too full-on with regards our opinions of AA, and that maybe it is more benign than that.

It was very strange to hear him say that. We haven\'t spoken in a few months, but even then he found AA distasteful. Now he is an apologist??? My friend likes to use AA as a social group, and i think in that respect it is as benign as any cliquey social group. BUt the problem is, AA is mroe than that - much more. I think he is just conveniently choossing to ignore everything else, just so he can justify continued attendance.

Anyway, i think OP and BD come across as harsh because they tell it liek it is. When i left AA, i told my family and in-laws how AA worked and the things i was told. I didn\'t inject judgement, simply recalled the teachings of the Big Book and of members i had heard in meetings. They were quite shocked, and immediately said it sounded like a cult. It shocked me that it was so clear to them.

What do other poeple think - Are OP and BD too full-on? Is it wrong to only focus on the negative?

Comments

Brett

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 22:29

my status as an older sober member, might not qualify me to say who is an alcoholic or not, my life experience however does, for the record your not, 6 beer binge, bullshit, billshit lol lol get a life & get a job, a real one

Brett

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Clara

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 22:40

No, Brett, I think I\'ll keep my retired status and even stay regarded as an alcoholic. You cannot be an older sober member or, again, you would know that no on determines that status but the individual. There must be something to it. For the first time in my adult life, I\'ve lived in two states unscathed by arrests.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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avogadno

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 22:51

\\\"In the study, published online in the Annals of Emergency Medicine in March, nearly 600 emergency department patients who were identified as hazardous or harmful drinkers (defined for men as drinking more than 14 drinks per week or more than four on any single occasion, and for women as more than seven weekly drinks or three on any one occasion) took part in a seven-minute interview\\\"

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Features/Insuring-Your-Health/2012/ER-co...

That\'s just how that particular hospital defined them. I thought you find it interesting either way.

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Clara

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 23:06

I cannot imagine trying to convince a person in recovery that they don\'t have a problem. And these people consider me dangerous. LOL!

Thank you, Avo, but my life was enough of a study for me! The only one that has to believe it is me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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avogadno

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 23:12

That\'s prolly true but not necessarily if you want help. They would have to believe it also. Just sayin.

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Brett

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 23:32

you got nuthen to recover from. 6 bloody beer binge lol, you were easily duped.
My comments do represent A.A as an elder statesman of that fellowship.

Brett

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becket

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 01:50

Jesus Christ, Brett, can you read?!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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Clara

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 05:28

I understand your tactic, Brett, but I didn\'t dupe crunching up my Lexus into a parked SUV.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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Ironic

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 09:00

So everybody that crashes a car while under the influence has got a disease?

I bet a little jail time would have been more/as effective than meetings. But I think we have determined here that AA is NOT most successful for \"the most tragic cases,\" but the opposite.

It definitely grinds my gears when \"ecstasy and pot\" addicts join NA and get all self-righteous on my ass. Okay, sure, xA works if you need to \"recover\" but don\'t actually need to physically detox from everything.

Okay Clara, I agree with you. In these cases, AA is great. Getting to play pretend sure is fun. Maybe these people should take Brett\'s advice and go get a bloody job (or an actual addiction. Hah)

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Clara

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 11:08

So this is where people play the \"my addiction/bottom/how it was is worse than yours\" type of thing that Avo disdained in her group? Aren\'t you the mere child that couldn\'t believe that people can retire in their forties? Go ask your dad! I had a real job, my dear. If you take time to learn and prepare, you\'ll be able to do it, too.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Brett

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 12:25

fer fks sake, crunching up cars don\'t an alcoholic make, it just means ya can\'t drive, just like a 6 beer binge don\'t make am alcoholic, you was just thirsty, they\'re pulling the wool over ya eyes, wake up clara.
my comments represent A.A & it\'s views, I am an elder statesman, not a 6 pot bleeding decon.

Brett

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Clara

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 20:02

Sherry in my soup, or even GM in my favorite chocolate fondue or perhaps rum in mousse aren\'t triggers to me. Mouthwash and toothpaste don\'t do anything for me other than give me a great smile. But that first drink... I can\'t make any assurances with that. I had legal problems. I could get great legal care, so charges were reduced and changed so I never had insurance issues or jail. I don\'t even have record. Each one was treated like a first time offense. But it just had to end. What I am addressing is the silliness that 6 drinks is a starter for you and no one could be alcoholic.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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JR Harris

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 21:03

You admitted to a DUI in South Carolina that gave you 3 years of probation. Probation is substituted for jail time and there is a minimum 2 day stay and Alcohol Education Classes with recommended treatment are mandatory for even a first DUI. Are you changing your story again?

If you have any Alcohol during probation it is considered a slip, even wine at holy communion and a probation violation. If you can drink or put any Alcohol in your system, even mouthwash, that is considered a slip and not acceptable in AA. Plus if you can drink or consume any amount of Alcohol, you are not an Alcoholic.

Whose leg are you trying to pull? This isn\'t a room full of newcomers.

Exposing the the lies of AA members, one lie at a time.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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Persephone In Exile

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 09:33

I always wondered about that one. If you believe in transubstantiation, then that communion wine is no longer really wine.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

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Clara

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 11:09

I know plenty of Catholics that still will take communion and drink the wine without fear of relapse or trigger.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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causeandeffect

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 11:34

I know one who won\'t even sip the non-alcoholic sacrificial wine at Mass because he claims that even ONE molecule of alcohol would be enough to lead him into a full relapse and a deeper rock bottom.

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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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btnben

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 11:43

Your body produces it\'s own alcohol. There was an MP in the UK about 20 years ago who got off a DUI because he had a strange condition where his body over produced. Yeast and sugar = alcohol and CO2 - better lay off the cakes too then...lol.

What gets me is that, after Mass, the priest has to drink all of the remaining wine. It would be blasphemy to waste any. Wonder how many of them overfill the chalice or whatever it\'s called?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

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becket

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 13:51

In the Catholic Mass the wine is considered sacramental, not sacrificial. If your friend does not drink sacramental wine at Mass he is managing his life the best way he knows how. You may find his reasoning lamentable, but in the interest of \"reclaiming\" power, he is doing what he believes is best. Isn\'t it about choice? Must everything anyone tries to do to stay sober be held up to scorn?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Brett

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 12:44

thry aint drinking wine, the priest says a bit of a prayer first & turns it into the blood of christ, amazing wot a bit o the old faith can do, I\'ve heard faith can cure the disease of alcoholism to, but it works best for 6 beer binge alcoholics, 6 beer binge alcoholic lol lol lol

Brett

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Persephone In Exile

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 11:45

Well, I hate to sound like I\'m losing my fire here, but my anger simply isn\'t directed at people who are choosing this route. The more I get over my own personal trauma the more I just want to fix what I see that is happening still to so many. I needed medical professionals who are actually able to help patients who\'re placed on loads of meds (not just the addictive ones), and so do many people. It is simply very easy for doctors to pass patients who react badly to meds (that was one of my problems aside from the addiction to the opiates) or get addicted over to psychiatrists, addiction counselors, rehabs, all of which recommend meetings, meetings and more meetings. It\'s a pass-the-buck system (and the courts obviously do this as well) which in then end helps no one.

Now don\'t get me wrong, I will occasionally get so angry at something done to me in treatment that I\'ll run here or to TheFix and rant and rave, but it serves no greater good to have such a polarized system of pro vs. anti. It\'s wonderful for debate, and highly useful in proving the lack of efficacy of the 12 step method for the purpose of getting it OUT of the mandated uses of it. It\'s great when it\'s someone like Peele doing the debating (he debates harm reduction vs. total abstinence on occasion to great effect). It\'s also occasionally necessary to be able to lay this all out in stark and unbending terms to someone who is being coercive or abusive re: your choice to live both addiction AND 12 step free. In which case, I say rip them a few new ones.

I think it\'s a cult. I think a LOT of things are cults. I\'ll probably be fired up later and regret sounding like such a peacenik here, and am CERTAINLY not denigrating the work that Orange and many others have done, because I think we need all shades in the color scheme to show the full range of what is going on out there. As for xA specifically, just for ME, I think a reasoned argument is a far better way to sway the debate.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

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becket

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 11:52

Can this be considered an endorsement for a cease fire on character assassination?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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Persephone In Exile

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 14:10

Becket, oh no, the interpersonal dynamics of troll vs. forum user are in no way affected by what I posted. That is a different animal entirely.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

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Persephone In Exile

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 11:54

Well, now I\'m replying to myself, but I wanted to specify. I was referring to the xA vs. any other way side of the debate. And the fact that some, like my friend I mentioned talking to, take good things from this program. I was talking the voluntary stuff. About how this debate can be turned into something that actually gets this movement anywhere. Then I think about the youth \"camps\" and deaths there (read about them right here on Orange), the suicides, the fact that I watched an 18 year old man brutally abused verbally and with NO mercy until he broke under the strain and killed himself, and YES, I am always going to be fighting this tooth and nail. In the application of 12 step ideology SPECIFICALLY that leads to that stuff.

I\'ll probably come back and edit myself heavily here, it\'s just that as angry as I get about what happened to me, no good can come of me running around to AA/NAs yelling that they\'re culty murderers, nor would I be even remotely sane were I to do so.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

dorak nob's picture

dorak nob

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 12:21

PIE apologize for jumping in your discussion, I think what you have to say is much more important then
my rant on clare.

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Clara

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 16:23

You call asking a question a rant? Surely you jest.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

dorak nob's picture

dorak nob

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 16:32

i guess it felt like a rant, maybe it was just an interruption. I felt I was derailing the thread by actually reading your comment , i try to ignore you but you seem to be everywhere.

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 07:33

My parents reacted the same way. They wanted me to go to xA, but once they went to a meeting and found out about the program they thought it was very dumb. At least my dad does. My mom still goes to Nar anon once in awhile I think, though she hasn\'t been in a couple months. They tell her that bc I take Subutex I am on the road to relapse. I\'m glad she blows them off.

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becket

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 11:41

Just a guess here, Ironic, but since she is a mother who loves her kid, she does not completely, 100% blow them off. If she continues to go to Nar anon once in a while she is continuing to hear that reinforced opinion that you are headed for relapse. Why does she go? She does not need someone to translate or exonerate your Subutex use, does she?

Not trying to be shitty here - but I am a mother, too; and if groups of people were occasionally telling me my daughter was undoubtedly headed for relapse I do not know that I could thoroughly erase that from my mind after every single meeting. You can understand how ideas linger.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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Ironic

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 11:58

She hasn\'t been in a couple months.

Yeah, people talk all sorts of crazy shit to her in Nar anon. I went to one of their kids funerals a month ago. After 4 Stepper rehabs, his parents finally did offer him Suboxone. He was too brainwashed to take it. He threw himself under a train a month ago.

I know you love to assume things becket, but of all those people who tell her that I\'m going to die, only two of them have kids that have been sober for time measurable in longer than weeks. That is probably why she HASN\'T BEEN IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS. She sees that they are better at gossiping than helping their children.

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becket

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 12:05

On the contrary: I do not love to assume things. Why do you think I ask the questions I ask?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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Clara

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 16:26

His parents \"offered\" him Suboxone? It\'s a medical treatment. How old was he that they would have anything to say about it? Here, a person 21 or over can make those decisions.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 16:37

First of all, he was 20 when he died, never gets to see 21 and he was 16-17 when this all started. He did make his own decision. By \"offered\" I meant offer to pay. That shit is EXPENSIVE. Mine is cheap bc I have good insurance and I\'m prescribed the generic but many doctors won\'t do that.

This was after he went through 4 treatment centers and mandated meetings where he was told Suboxone was equal to using. But I\'m sure that had 0 to do with his decision to not accept it.

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Clara

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 16:45

That is such a shame, Ironic.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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becket

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 16:47

Ironic, have you considered what you will do when you no longer have insurance?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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Ironic

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 19:24

Down to .325 mg/day.

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avogadno

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 21:03

Are you going to lose your insurance?

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Ironic

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 13:42

I\'ll be covered under my moms policy until I\'m 26. I\'m turning 23 in July so I\'ll be off Sub before then..but if not? Well, that\'s why I take .325/day but I\'m prescribed 2mg/day.

Trust me becket, I can see the writing on the wall

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becket

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 14:02

I believe you, and I believe you\'re smart enough to begin constructing a Plan B. I\'m just curious here: what would keep you from just tapering off completely yourself, or are you planning to stay at .325 for the next three years? Do you have a timeline in place for quitting? It interests me because of my friend who is currently taking Suboxone.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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becket

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 01:51

How long will that run you?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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Persephone In Exile

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 07:48

And there it is again. The whole idea that coercion doesn\'t exist, nor brainwashing, nor messing with someone\'s head while they\'re still trying to get it straight after being on drugs. These people tell you that making your own decisions is tantamount to still being an addict, that you must jump when they say to, and then add parents into that, well it changes the ball game entirely. The whole \"but he had the option to make a different decision\" crap is just that, crap. I don\'t know Ironic\'s friend, obviously, but this is basically how I lost one myself. He too was of age.

These people tell parents to cut kids off financially, kick them out of the house, offer them NOTHING and not even speak to them sometimes. It is brutal, especially when you throw in the fact that there is certain controversy in terms of the use of subutex. Maybe back in the Boomer generation it was different, you turned 18 and flew from the nest, too, but even in my generation kids are much more dependent upon parents post-18 for insurance, college, etc. if they\'re lucky enough to have families who can afford it. Parents can exert an enormous amount of control when it comes to the finances, and it\'s all well and good to just say they should just go get a job and \"pull themselves up by their bootstraps\", but that\'s simply not realistic.

Had I still been in college when all this happened to me, it would\'ve been follow the rules to the letter or you get your future yanked, and your home.....and finances, insurance, tuition, car, auto insurance. I don\'t know, again if that was the situation for Ironic\'s friend, but it sure is for everyone still young enough to be on their own I met in treatment. And that\'s because they had families well off enough to PAY for that. The kids without those resources, they don\'t have the familial/social coercion, but look at what else they don\'t have?

/end spoiled brat-just world rant

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 08:04

My sister told me that financial independence today is the age 30... My sister has seen her children through college, advanced degrees and now possibly pharm school. I guess it is best said that it\'s over when it is over...

But there is a place for some tough love. I don\'t think that a parent needs to let its child\'s addiciton suck them dry emotionally, financially or physically, and I have seen all of this. I think Ironic said it best.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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Persephone In Exile

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 09:27

There\'s a catch-22 when it comes to opiate withdrawal in some people though. I\'ve seen parents told to be so \"tough\" love in cases where the anxiety is so strong that it just breaks people. Some insist on a sober living house, which here mandate meetings. Also drug screens, and if you have a psychiatrist who will treat the anxiety with benzos or other drugs, that\'s a good route. Or sub. But when people tell you you can have nothing for it, not even weed, it can be very intense. It\'s sad, because some of the parents who want to be the most involved and use the most resources are frequently advised in this way, and end up with dead kids who might\'ve been fine had they been allowed to move from heroin to meds monitored by a doctor for the PAWS, or even not seeing weed as a sure sign of relapse. That\'s just what I\'ve seen. Most of the younger people I met in meetings who\'d been junkies were going that route, and not sticking around the meetings, it just isn\'t sensible to say PAWS shouldn\'t be treated medically IF it is necessary. I know for some it\'s not that bad of a problem, I\'ve seen people be pretty much fine within a month (oddly enough) and others require a year or two of medication. The medication route seems to be the way things are moving, though, so hopefully the two-hatter \"are you clean or not? You can\'t be \'kind of\' clean, can you be \'kind of\' pregnant\" BS will go the way of the dodo.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

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avogadno

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 19:05

I wish I had went the med route years ago.

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Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

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Ironic

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 19:12

Very well put, as usual.

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Ironic

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 16:33

My mom is a little bit of a hippie. I mean, when I first told her I had a drug problem (she said she noticed something off but had no idea it was heroin), maybe she wanted me to abstain completely..but she also OKed me going on psych meds at age 8 or 9 so I don\\\\\\\'t really know.

Nowadays, she wants me functional and to stay away from the big shit like needles. I mean it\\\\\\\'s harder for her to go insane on me for smoking weed (she does it too, and rarely drinks, and takes 1-2 Xanax every month) when she hasn\\\\\\\'t seen any fresh track marks in a couple years and I\\\\\\\'m once again a functioning person that she enjoys spending time with. I mean, she wouldn\\\\\\\'t approve of my drinking alcoholically or something \\\\\\\"so long as I could function\\\\\\\" because that shit tears up your insides.

I think when people have a bad problem, them (or their families) need to be tough and firm that the behavior must stop, but also cut their junkies some slack, ya know? She did everything she could to pull me off the road to death so that I could live to see another day and resume functioning. My depression, my impulsivity, all that is up to me how I want to deal with it. I appreciate her, even if I\\\\\\\'ll never be able to be a doctor.

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