AA in the court

In this case, the leasee of a building in which AA meetings were held appealed an order that use of the building for AA meeings violated a city ordinance. The building leasee argued that the order violated the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act. The appellate court found in favor of the zoning board, stating that \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[b]ecause the group meetings are for the purpose of treating addictions and not for exercising religion, no matter what the religion is, the trial court did not err in determining that Glenside was not using the leased office space at 2285 Cross Road for religious purposes.\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"

Anyway, here are some interesting snippets from the case (I boldfaced my favorite parts):

GLENSIDE CENTER v. ABINGTON TP. ZONING, 973 A. 2d 10 - Pa: Commonwealth Court 2009

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7773412378412953526&q=Glensi...

Thomas Deveney (Deveney), a member of AA for 53 years, testified regarding his involvement with Glenside for 45 years. He explained what a typical AA meeting was like and then read the 12 Suggested Steps of AA.[7] He testified that AA was a spiritual program and stated the difference between a spiritual program and a religion was that he belonged to a religion and practiced its precepts but AA taught him spirituality.[8] When asked if AA encouraged participants to seek contact with a higher power, whatever they might call it, he responded: \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"Well, they just say, this is 14*14 what we did. If you want what we have, you better do as we did [and that was to seek a higher power].\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"
.
.
.
Various neighbors from the community introduced photographs into evidence showing the adverse parking situation on the street by the office building which made driving difficult and dangerous and prevented emergency traffic from getting through. Other neighbors testified that they observed members of Glenside urinating in public, using obscene language and trash which had been left by members attending meetings.
.
.
.
Additionally, the testimony from neighborhood residents regarding parking problems, noise, trash and loitering supported the Board\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s determination that granting a variance would have been detrimental to the public\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s health, welfare and safety.
.
.
.
Glenside failed to prove that any of the meetings are administered by a religious leader, i.e., a minister, priest, rabbi or other spiritual leader. Glenside does not hold any religious services or have any religious affiliations. Its Articles of Incorporation state nothing about being incorporated for a religious purpose, but only to assist people in recovering from addiction. Similarly, Glenside\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s printed materials state that Glenside is not a religious organization and do not require that members possess any religious belief to participate. While Glenside argues that members have found a connection with God at its meetings, clearly, the primary purpose of the group meetings, whether they be for AA, NA or DA, is to support individuals who are recovering from alcohol, drug, gambling and debtor addictions, not to advance religion. Particularly where AA and NA meetings are concerned, the primary concern of those meetings is to treat substance abuse. Moreover, Glenside and others on its behalf testified that members come from all religious walks of life whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim or non-believers in a higher power. The fact that the 12-step program is used and it contains references to \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"God\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" and a \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"Higher 18*18 Power\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" does not mean that all members believe that they are partaking in a religious experience when they are attending an AA or NA meeting.

Comments

JR Harris's picture

Give them the information they need. One thing that is glaringly incorrect is - religious leader, i.e., a minister, priest, rabbi or other spiritual leader..... AA is Spiritual and teaches that practice. The second glaring incorrect assumption is - Particularly where AA and NA meetings are concerned, the primary concern of those meetings is to treat substance abuse. This statement is incorrect and numerous website, including aa.org claim that they do not provide substance abuse treatment.

These are two major points that need to be addressed. The court systems need to be aware of the truth, not the obvious lies of AA members when they are cornered to cover up the truth.

Exposing the lies of AA members, one member at a time.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Three points:

1) The Steppers lost this case, so I don\\\'t think we want to change the outcome.

2) While I agree AA is a religion, this case involved the Free Exercise Clause and not the Establishment Clause. Basically the court found that AA does not get a religious exemption from city ordinances. Here is an important footnote:

13.  Glenside cites Griffin in support of its position.   We first note that that case dealt with meetings in a prison setting modeled after AA which a prisoner was forced to attend as a precondition to his continued participation in the state prison\\\'s family reunion program.   The Court of Appeals of New York held that the prison could not condition his eligibility for the family reunion program on participation in the prison\\\'s treatment program that incorporated religious aspects of the 12-step treatment program because it violated the Establishment Clause as it endorsed religion. Not only is that case distinguishable because the prisoners had nowhere else to go and the members are free to attend other meetings, but that case involves an Establishment Clause issue which is not present here.

3) This case was brought by a building leasee as a result of the zoning board\\\'s finding that the building was being used in violation of city ordinances. This was not a lawsuit against AA itself, and I don\\\'t see how it would have any precedence in a negligence case against AA for torts committed by AA members.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

massive's picture

awesome post! Thanks Pennywise >......:)

Massive

JR Harris's picture

Much easier to read and very informative. I believe this is a keeper.....

http://www.aopc.org/OpPosting/Cwealth/out/886CD08_3-17-09.pdf

Interesting Snippets;

Glenside Center, Inc. (Glenside) appeals from an order of the Court of Common Pleas of Montgomery County (trial court) affirming the decision of the Zoning Hearing Board of Abington Township (Board) that its use of an office building for Alcoholic Anonymous meetings was not a use permitted in Abington Township (Township) and was not a violation of the Religious Land Use and
Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA), 42 U.S.C. §2000cc(a)(1).

Before the Board, Mr. McHugh testified on behalf of Glenside whom he was representing. He stated that Glenside, a not-for-profit corporation, held 38 meetings a week at the office building with each meeting lasting one hour, with the exception of a handful of meetings lasting one-half hour longer. He stated that the attendance at most of the meetings was 15 to 20 people depending on which night the meeting took place. However, on Saturday nights, when a beginner’s meeting was conducted, up to 60 people might attend. Mr. McHugh testified that he was made aware of opposition from neighbors who complained of parking problems, noise and loitering from members attending the meetings. As for the meetings themselves, he stated that Glenside was not a religious organization and none of the meetings were led by a minister, priest, rabbi or other religious/spiritual leader. Further, the materials relating to the AA program specified that AA was not a religious organization.

So at least it does appear that the neighbors were the ones complaining. I still disagree with the no Spiritual Leader part, but at least it had the right outcome. It does sound like a cross between the Little River Club in Miami and the Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Nutley, New jersey.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

DeConstructor's picture

being an \'outside issue\'

JR Harris's picture

This case is just one precedent of AA/NA problems. The problem is that as I have noted, two very glaring points were not addressed correctly. The reason they were not addressed correctly is because the perceived de facto stance is covered up by the liars in AA who manipulate the scripture to say what ever they want. The idea is to give rebuttals to these inaccurate assumptions and make it so the search engines will find them so that future cases will have the ammo needed to pierce this cult. Use their own scripture and - conference approved of course - against them.

Exposing the lies of AA members, one lie at a time.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

In a way, here, Stepper Billshit got used against them. Remember, it was the building leasee (an AA organization) that was arguing that AA meetings should be treated as religious exercises. The court used AA\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s own Billshit to refute this argument.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Thank you, Penny.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

Are you being conniving again and trying to misinterpret what was said as usual?

Exposing the liars of AA, one liar at a time.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

If it was deemed religious would it have been ok for them to continue to piss on the streets I wonder?

Pennywise's picture

Not to piss on the streets, but it certainly would have complicated things. Personally, I believe that the federal law in question is an unconstitutional violation of the Establishment Clause insofar as it treats religous activety differently than secular activety. This is somewhat ironic because the act was passed to protect the First Amendment. Basically I see a tension because in order to preserve
the Free Exercise Clause, the law provides special protections to religious activety that do not apply to secular activety, which I maintain violates the the Establishment Clause. In short, the law violates the Establishment Clause because it favors religion over non-religion.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

btnben's picture

You should be a lawyer man!

The building owner must be a stepper or he wouldn\'t have busted his balls so much to try and defend AA. I wonder how much cash it cost him to appeal the order?

If he was/is a stepper then what\'s he doing trying to play the religious card? AA is spiritual not religious.

Pennywise's picture

Lol. It just goes to show you that Steppers will twist whatever they can to fit their needs. Do half measures avail us nothing, or will we be amazed before we are halfway through? It all depends on what will serve the cult best in the particular instance.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

If Glenside did win the appeal and it was deemed religious meetings were taking place and if it came out the building owner was a stepper (which he must be) would the big wigs in AA have disowned them for claiming AA was religious I wonder?

If Glenside won would they have been the first religious AA meetings? AA is spiritual not religious right.

Oh and I agree the securalist is getting screwed.

I\'m still learning things about AA

Pennywise's picture

After reading more closely, I don\'t think the building owner was involved. It was Glenside, which is an AA organization, which leased the building and appealed the order.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

It\\\'s interesting because I found this case when looking for cases where an AA group tried to claim a religious (as distinct from merely non-profit) exemption. I somehow figured the spiritual, not religious Steppers would switch their tune and play the religious hand if it was in their favor. Sure enough, they didn\\\'t disappoint.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Right man I get it now! Glenside is an AA oragnization!

So where did the cash come from to defend their stance? Does the money come from the pockets of the steppers? As far as I know law is expensive in the USA? Yes?

They didn\\\'t disappoint at all! lol!

Pennywise's picture

That\'s an interesting question. Who paid the legal fees? Was the lawyer a Stepper working pro bono? Did it come from 7th Tradition funds? Did a few Steppers \"step up\" and pay for it? Did AAWS or the intergroup chip in? We can only speculate...

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Do they pay tax in the USA? Would they pay tax if they were deemed religious?

Pennywise's picture

There are all sorts of taxes in the USA. Most AA groups, such as AAWS, do not pay income tax. Honstly, I\'m not sure what other taxes they get exemptions for. This would be a good question for our resident tax expert, Live Free or Die.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

Strange, the site is identified as an Alcohol and Drug Rehabilitation center and has current listings for them, they also have numerous welfare agencies at the office:

http://www.drugstrategies.org/NA-Meetings/Pennsylvania/Glenside/Glenside...
http://meetings.intherooms.com/locations/Glenside/Glenside-Center/14734
http://www.drugstrategies.org/NA-Meetings/Pennsylvania/Glenside/

I wonder what happened?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

alkieanon's picture

A new lease on life. Looks like they found a new home. Over 30 AA meetings by the looks of it.

Hey the do the whole lot there. So is it AANA meeting or a NAAA meeting?

JR Harris's picture

One of the NA meetings is at 10PM on Saturday which was the major complaint and I can find no website for the actual site. The lawsuit says it is a community center. I am wondering if anyone told them to remove the links from the web? I did use an intherooms link once and it took me to a church that did not have a meeting at it.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.