Complicating Things

Not much to add. I always enjoy your posts

Every lie you say, has to be covered up by another one, and it shows in your posts. Enough said.

Exposing the lies of AA members, one lie at a time.

I didn\'t know you could do that. I asked Orange if I could personally block Marietta and he indicated (didn\'t say outright) that that wasn\'t possible

JR, Clara claims your posts have already been blocked. I was unaware that humanspirits posts have been blocked as well. I\'m betting I\'ve been blocked too. Meh.

Yes, all these rituals truly do complicate matters when a person is at the lowest point in their lives. The evidence suggests that even the act of labeling oneself an alcoholic can be an obstacle for some people, and that those who don\'t may even fare better.

The problem also starts at step 1 in admitting powerlessness. Steppers see this as some kind of weird paradox that somehow works opposite to what common sense would tell you. Yet what they don\'t see is how it effects those who\'ve left the program, and having internalized that message, drink even more. But we see them and it\'s a tragedy. I feel every step and every aspect of the program needs to be scrutinized to find out exactly how these rituals are effecting people who have been exposed to them. I\'m sure that if the 95% that run from the program were studied, we would start to get a picture of the full extent of harm done by the program.

I think a lot of the problem is trying to apply common sense and logic to the AA program. Chalk and cheese. I think you make a great point about the complexity of it all. The roots of this are in the continuous bait and switch nature of the AA teachings. There are, at least, two answers to everything - choose the one that best suits your current need. Maybe confusion would be a better word than complexity.

Perhaps a way to bring a bit of order into things it may help to generally categorise what were talking about on here. To me it seems that, in the broadest sense, there are two main aims on this forum. First, to document what has been wrong with AA, what is wrong with AA and how it can be changed/removed. Secondly, to document how people managed without AA, using different methods, or doing different things and how they intend to move on with what they have now found. I think we have pretty strong adherents to both camps already. Just an idea to bear in mind when starting threads.

HS - Just for you. A bit of practice for tomorrow. Who invented the pie chart?

I think someone did some html and didn\'t close it. But I don\'t know what the code would be because I only know a couple html commands.

Ben, I think the issue is so all encompassing that the discussion could really go on for a long, long time to come. There are those who are atheists who are offended by the religiosity. There are Christians who are offended by the \"create your own god\" aspect. There are those who drank more because of powerlessness. The low self esteem and depression and suicide, the list goes on and on. We all have our pet peeves. And all these things are being documented here and various other places on the web, which is good.

I believe many researchers don\'t want to delve too deeply into the issue because recovery is a stepper dominated field, and to do so would be professional suicide. At least not *yet*. But small parts of the puzzle are being studied, and none of them look good for AA. It\'s only a matter of time. The tides are turning.

If AA were honest or turned over a new leaf and decided to declare outright the path they take (with full explanation before entering the rooms), there wouldn\'t be much of a problem. There is really no other choice but to keep complaining, keep repeating ourselves, and not just letting them be. That\'s what AA\'s want, us to leave them alone if we don\'t like it.

It seems that it would be in everyone\'s best interest (except for the brutally deceptive organization that only cares about MONEY and POWER) if they came clean. Perhaps a bad ass bouncer type that questions people on entry into AA/NA meetings, \"Are you sure this is what you want? AA does involve a possible religious transformation, and a break down process that doesn\'t work unless you are capable of having complete faith. It may otherwise be negative, as there is nothing in place to bring you back up if this doesn\'t work\".

OK, I\'m exaggerating but we get the picture.

All I needed was to be told the doctors, psychologists, or counselors, the facts about what works and the percentages. I don\'t expect all the answers and options, I do expect the truth though. In fact, my personality is one that would have preferred a one one on plan or \'do it yourself\' mode. At home, with my loved ones. It\'s what worked for me anyway.

AA and many AA’s just seem to love the dishonest, we know what’s best, approach. The ends (which often turn out to be awful) justifies the means is their excuse. Then of course comes the blame, the “you just didn’t do it right”. It’d be so much easier to all cooperate but it’s the 12 step culture that doesn’t seem to want to.

Thank you for stating the \"real\" issue so eloquently. The issue, it seems to me, is not AA. AA is a failure; it does not work to help people break free from their addictions. This is fact, not just an opinion. By exposing the hoax of AA to the general public and more importantly to the medical community, change in the way addiction is \"treated\" is possible. I don\'t have the answer. But I know that faith-healing is not an effective or acceptable solution to a very real problem. Thanks to all who post here on OPF, even the supporters of AA. All voices have a right to be heard.

Please enlighten this \"inept group\" as to what alcoholism is and what an alcoholic is. Thank you in advance.

OK, Bill Nye just got booed in Waco, Texas for--wait for it---stating that the moon reflects light and doesn\'t emit it. I have officially lost my faith in humanity, and I swear that\'s not even the first time I\'ve said that. I\'m sorry. I know that only slightly relates to having facts slam straight up against dogma in terms of this discussion, but it was just too much to not share. If people out there won\'t even believe the moon isn\'t emitting light, I don\'t see much hope in sanity from the disease theory folks out there.

\"Oh Lord what fools these mortals be\"

I do not believe the steps work for more than a few and the religious side has retarded the recovery movement in the same way it has held back other advances over the years. Everyone is different and needs a different solution. Some are depressed and self medicating while others are party animals. If people need help and support,they need a group that acknowledges the differences not one that makes you concentrate on the similarities. For instance everyone has experienced fear but it may not make them drink. AA has just turned in to a crazy type of religion with some vey sick members who are extream.