C&E said yesterday about something that pisses her off. Well the topic of the blog that I am starting today is something that pisses ME off. Well actually it was the entire article/advertisement, one for a treatment facility and 12 step groups, that got me going. It is one of the more blatant ones I have seen actually. Most do not mention outright that their go-to recovery model is 12-step. There is usually an * at some point or an innuendo that makes it clear to those experienced with stepping that it is the model they use. The first line actually sums up what their enormous fees are paying for:
The Landing introduces all of our clients to 12 Step programs.
The Landing in Southern California jumps right out and plays a trick, that \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"12 step programs are proven to greatly assist clients\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\". First of all, where is the proof? Secondly, it slyly suggests that 12 step is proven to assist addicts outside of rehab as well, something we know is a lie.
Perhaps in the Landing facility cravings are discussed and advice is offered in meetings but I never saw this. Not one time in 5 years of meetings did I hear anyone share how they dealt with a craving, besides more meetings, more prayer, and more big book study.
As a matter of fact, discussing logical approaches to deal with the monkey were frowned upon. They just didn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t think that anyone in a substance abuse support group had any right to offer THAT kind of logical advice. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"We are not professionals\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\", \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"Getting intellectual on us?\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" and the absolute most ambiguous remark I heard was \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"Outside issue!\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\". In my opinion this is exactly the kind of information that they did have knowledge about and the absolute only thing that should be shared as far as advice was concerned.
The impression that normies in society have, that step groups are lean on, \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"fundamental\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\", supportive \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"niche\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" groups of people that share understanding, come from advertisements such as this one. I read a LOT about rehabilitation approaches and have never seen one that is affiliated with the AA approach come forth with any hint of how the program really works.
How does AA “work”?
There is no fundamental or logical basis to AA “support”. All members are instructed to have faith. Faith in any entity other than themselves. The pressure to succumb to the religious exercises of AA are so enormous that new or reluctant members are actually told that they will die, end up in an institution, or drink forever if they don’t participate. This threat, or approach – ahem, is adverse to the expectations of new recruits and completely opposite to societal views. This collective misinterpretation is not due to the oversight and/or gullibility of our society. It is intentional deceptive recruiting tactics used by XA’s, those in support, and the promotional strategy of advertisement such as this one, that get the sick and vulnerable in the door and relenting to group coercion.
Comments
flannigan
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 13:11
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to avogadno
You ask: \"How does AA \'work\'?\" Simple answer- It doesn\'t. Faith-healing has never been shown to be effective in treatment of any disorder/disease.
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:42
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Good point Flannigan and you
Good point Flannigan and you are right. AA does not work. I think this calls for another expression. How about:
\"What approach does AA take?\"
or
\"What process does AA take?\"
The chapter in the BB, \"How It Works\" should also be rewritten, so as to not give the wrong impression. Unless of course they finally get with it and start offering a completely different text. One that is up to date and accurately depicts the true nature alcoholism and how it can differ to all individuals instead of ignorantly relating it only to a select few.
Do you mind if I borrow this quote for my signature?: \"Faith healing has never been shown to be effective in treatment of any disorder or disease\". I\'m due for a change.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
btnben
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:48
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Avo - Has the fame gone to your head?...lol
If you look on the latest page of OP letters Orange has used your current signature and put your name under it. Fame at last eh?...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:55
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Ben, I\'m not sure what you
Ben, I\'m not sure what you mean?
Lol though. Because I heard it somewhere, I didn\'t make it up. Perhaps he should change the credit to: From someone and somewhere. lol
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
btnben
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:56
Permalink
Check the end of this letter
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters303.html#Sam_S
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 15:09
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I see now. I\'m flattered :=
I see now. I\'m flattered :=)
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Pennywise
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 15:12
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How awesome is that!
How awesome is that!
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
btnben
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 15:14
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Is this our 1st OP royalty?
LOL
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 15:43
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I think that Orange should
I think that Orange should use the following quote of Clara\'s once:
\"My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA\". lol.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 17:11
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Just making sure I comply
Just making sure I comply with Traditions and no one gets confused!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 17:21
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Really Clara, I was happy
Really Clara, I was happy that you put that signature up and proud of you for doing so. It lightens my heart though, that you are doing so to comply with the AA traditions.
Come on girl! Do it for you, fuck that AA insanity.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Unhinged
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 17:25
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I bet....
I bet Clara could have the happiness she claims to have because of AA without AA....
Maybe she is not giving herself enough credit for the transformation in her life that she attributes to AA....
Unhinged
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 17:27
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Maybe....
Maybe this site does need the AA faithfull so we can convert them....he he he....
Clara
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:19
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The Landings is in Newport
The Landings is in Newport Beach. Wonder if that is the beach meeting Anti posted about where they allegedly were smoking.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:24
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No Clara, the Landings rehab
No Clara, the Landings rehab is located in S. California. This particular one anyway.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:33
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Yes, SoberLanding is in
Yes, SoberLanding is in Newport Beach, CA.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:38
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Working on Old English and
Working on Old English and Ancient Greek declensions did WONDERS for me when I still had cravings. And you can imagine the looks I got in rehab for sharing THAT particular tidbit.
That said, SoberLandings would\'ve laughed me out of the door. No, just kidding, I had EXCELLENT insurance. They\'d\'ve recommended 30 more days.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Clara
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:43
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I didn\'t continue to get
I didn\'t continue to get cravings, but I couldn\'t sleep at alll and the mind raced. I felt as if I walked 24 hours a day.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Brett
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:46
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6 beer detox?
comming down off the beers was hard huh? 6 beer binge lmgo
Brett
btnben
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:53
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Come clean Clara
While I can just about accept someone getting drunk on 6 Grand Marniers I\'m afraid it just doesn\'t make sense that you would get withdrawal symptoms from such a low intake. Being drunk is short term and amounts required vary from person to person. Withdrawal comes after long term use and is directly related to the amounts drunk. It\'s a physical thing not a mental one.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 15:07
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That is how it happened for
That is how it happened for me, Ben. I couldn\\\'t sleep at all. I tried the sleep aids, but those didn\\\'t work for me. I started just getting up and walking. I would walk at all hours of the night. I really can\\\'t say anything more for it. I started to bake cakes for our meetings, and the sugar seemed to make a difference. Whereas it previously would hype me up, it calmed me down.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 15:13
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Good news Clara
If that is all you had for a withdrawal, you are definitely NOT an alcoholic. Aren\'t you so happy about that? Most people are when they find out they don\'t have a disease they thought they had. You\'re cured because you never had it Clara. Hooooooorrrrrrraaaaaaayyyyyyyyy.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 15:50
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That is exactly how felt when
That is exactly how felt when I found out that I certainly was not an alcoholic myself. To think that I was pressured to admit this simply because I like my dope. The reasoning was that it effected the same part of the brain.
I\'m very embarrassed that I lost sleep over this in wonderment. In my defense there was more than a few that insisted I must be alcoholic. However prior to that point I had not more than 3 drinks total during one session for years. Not since my college years had I participated in excessive drinking without days off in between. That could be considered almost normal actually. For the group I hung around anyway.
Oh, to find out that you are cured of a fatal disease offers the same amount of relief. It made my year!
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 17:15
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Wow, why is it that AA is
Wow, why is it that AA is wrong yet this group of equally non-professional people are right?
I needed help in changing my life, and this is where I got it. I think I will keep it.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 17:25
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But they are wrong to try and
But they are wrong to try and instill in anothers mind an alcoholism status. I\'m not talking about you Clara, myself only.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 18:48
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You know what, though, I
You know what, though, I think there can be such a thing as emotional dependence on something, too. I never tried a wholesale effort to not drink. I could knock off for a while, but I never really tried to make a lifestyle change that didn\'t include alcohol. And it would have been hard to do, given that everyone I knew was involved in that. My last DUI was that last of a number of them. I don\'t think regular people get multiple DUIs.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:58
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Clara, what did you do to
Clara, what did you do to help you sleep and get rid of the racing thoughts?
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Brett
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:43
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you can see
how this kind of approach would suck someone in with say a 6 beer binge problem, 6 beer binge lmao
Brett
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 14:48
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I thought some of my advice
I thought some of my advice was pretty good. It worked for me. And it did not require a religious conversion or a lifelong commitment.
After I got over wd I worked on puzzles. Any kind to get my mind off of using. I was literally taking it minute by minute. Sudoku, jigsaw, logic (oh no!), crossword puzzles helped me focus on something other than using. I am a professional now! lol. That will be $30,000 please!
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
dorak nob
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 17:36
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after rehab i saw maybe 5 out
after rehab i saw maybe 5 out 30 people the first week ,that dwindled down to two then one,
Once I brought up cravings and asked for advice, after the meeting I was hammered about not working a good program, how many meetings was I going to and who was my sponsor. So of course the advise was go to more meetings , work a better program then I would get it. whatever the hell IT was.
causeandeffect
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 18:31
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Personally, I think rehab
Personally, I think rehab could do a world of good for people provided they drop the 12 step facilitation and the idea of powerlessness. I think it’s beneficial to get away from the environment that you had been using in. Being questered somewhere that alcohol and drugs are unavailable is beneficial especially when long enough to get over the cravings. Having time to start to enjoy the feeling of sobriety as its own reward is also good. Being around others who have the same goal is validating. But it’s those damn 2 hatters that make rehab a useless time and money pit.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 18:55
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I didn\'t go to rehab, but I
I didn\'t go to rehab, but I know people that feel that its value is getting out of the environment. Many of the people I knew in AA felt that rehabs were unnecessary on some fronts because people could just come to meetings there. What else do rehabs offer?
I looked at the website Avo provided, and this looks like a pricey place. It is a few blocks away from the Sunday AA meeting that takes place on the beach. I don\'t know if there is a beach meeting that this rehab might take to the beach, or if the meeting discussed in the smoking article Anti posted. What IS similar to her Sunrise Group is that both are advertised in media schedules and are regular meetings on the beach. I wonder if someone can be reached to find out why theirs is more successful. I wish I could find her link again.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 19:35
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One thing about rehab is that
One thing about rehab is that there is such thing as oversight. The counselors tend to watch over the patients and if they are taken to outside meetings they probably make sure that no one is shacking up in a car (a public lot), or swearing loudly, littering etc. I understand that there are some nasty counselors out there, and that\'s unfortunate. If there were more checks & balances in the recovery world I imagine that there would be less complaints. Too bad that 12 step groups can\'t find a way to incorporate such measures into their traditions and enforce them.
Tradition 1, for example, could read something like this:
Members of AA should always act accordingly. Sexual misconduct will not be tolerated. See the group SAFETY COORDINATOR if you are aware of any such situations occurring. We also have a policy of never bring any weapons or drug paraphernalia to groups. If this should occur, notify the SAFETY COORDINATOR so that they can take action. Police will be notified and anonymity will not be enforced. Safety is our #1 concern because without it, sobriety is not possible.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 20:13
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You know, Avo, we don\'t have
You know, Avo, we don\'t have such a statement, but in our club in MB, the Director fo the Board made those things very clear. I caught a woman smoking crack in the bathroom, and I confronted her one the spot. There was a notice on the door the next morning with a statement similar to this. We also had a man that had more problems than just booze or drugs. When his meds woudl get mixed up, something that seemed to happen every three years, it was made clear to him (as clear as could be) that he couldn\'t behave as he did in the meetings as his behavior included threats. Having been warned, the day came when the police were called to tell him that he could not come back to the clubhouse, and if he did, he would be arrested for trespass. I think I have talked about this.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
dorak nob
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 18:58
Permalink
causeandeffect you are so
causeandeffect you are so right, rehab did help me to change my routine , my belief is AA is cheap so the state and insurance feels like its the best followup . and like you said dropping the powerless 12 step bullshit would go a long way in helping people. AA just does not work, of course they have a few examples where peoples live have improved , those people get jobs at rehabs. seems like clara works for rehab in some PR capacity . shes always right on the ball defending it ..
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 19:12
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I\'ve never been opposed to
I\'ve never been opposed to the idea of rehab. Although I don\'t think it\'s a necessity, my last outpatient treatment gave me structure when I really needed some. There was also daily classes on the health problems of drug users. Learning about what was physically going on with my body and what I expected in the future helped me a lot. I prepared myself for these times. PAWS was discussed at length as well. Learning that I had been and would most likely go through a long period of emotional and psychological ups and downs helped me realize that if I could hang tough, I\'d eventually get relief.
We worked on a paper called \"How It Was\" though and had to make a presentation to our individual groups. This could have been helpful, if it wasn\'t a just a focus on how awful our lives were. It also gave them evidence to thrust in our face when we questioned some of the steppism. They tried to use our history, the selective terrible parts, against us. For example trying to label me as a food addict as well, just because I admitted that I would comfort eat. I didn\'t fall for that for a minute, but oddly when I shared about my choice to change my diet I was told that I shouldn\'t do that. You know, it would interfere with my focus on substance abuse recovery. If I had shared that I was attending an OE group along with other meetings I’d of been hailed as a recovering queen. I found that 2 hat counselors cared more about HOW a person got clean, rather than if they actually accomplished sobriety.
I also agree that being around others that had similar struggles was helpful. It\'s what I found to be the most positive aspect of meeting attendance. Unfortunately I had to filter through a lot of bullshit to get to the common ground we shared. It wasn\'t so in rehab, where steppism had not always taken over yet.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
causeandeffect
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 20:08
Permalink
Agreed, Avo. Rehab isn\'t for
Agreed, Avo. Rehab isn\'t for everyone. I detoxed twice but never went to rehab. But fo r those who go, a much more realistic approach needs to be adopted, such as dealing with PAWS as you pointed out. I was never given any good info regarding that.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 20:23
Permalink
I comfort eat. I sometimes
I comfort ate. I sometimes still do. I can get into a McDonald\\\'s cinnimelt and love life. I don\\\'t think that every reaction to something is necessarily something to \\\"have to work out.\\\"
Obviously, when doing a 4th step and then a 5th, I think the point is also to get some of the ick factor out of your life. I feel that is a good thing to do, even if you aren\\\'t an alcoholic because I think many people cruise around with unnecessary baggage. Everyone\\\'s made mistakes and mine included some things that continued to have an effect. I have to admit that I would find telling a GROUP some of it to be rather daunting, but on a one on one level, it was relieving and helpful. I don\\\'t know if those things encouraged me to drink, but I do know that my life feels better with having worked through them.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Sun, 04/29/2012 - 21:51
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4th and 5th step success
4th and 5th step success story? Give it a fuckin break please! That is the exact kind of shit we don\'t want to hear and I am begininng to fully believe that you enjoy fucking with the people that have come forth with painful stories about working those 2 steps in particular and having a nightmare of a time coping with the dreadful emotional set-backs from doing so. And there you admit that you don\'t know if it helped you quit drinking but perhaps it helped you feel a bit better.
Quit promoting the Bill-shit, not one person here wants to hear how wonderful it was for you seeing that we know how it nearly killed others. Ever hear of the 5th step relapse or 5th step suicide? Not in your group I know, but unless you are blind you have read about it here and know we are sensitive to that banter. \"I feel it\'s a good thing to do\", well no shit Miss Slick but it doesn\'t fool me anymore. People can decide if and when they want to particpate in that activity and if it\'s never then that is fine too because we all joined a quit drinking program not a confessional group where we could trade our sins for supposed sobriety.
Harsh, maybe. But if you didn\'t get it before maybe now you will. That little speech was as insensitive as a male dog is around a bitch in heat.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Mon, 04/30/2012 - 06:43
Permalink
But it is a difference in how
But it is a difference in how it is done, Avo. One was done in a group, non private, almost competitive, forum and the other was done in a confidential setting.
Take a different spin on it. I have a board full of people telling me that I am not an alcoholic, and I say something about a couple of steps I did in the fellowship that helped remove the cringe factor from some aspects of my life, which I think would have been a good thing to do under any circumstances. You are the first to say that AA had nothing to do with my stopping the drink. But if I drank over issues in my life, wouldn\\\'t dealing with those issues be something to do? I did have things I wanted to get off of my shoulders.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Mon, 04/30/2012 - 06:08
Permalink
No, I wasn\'t the first to
No, I wasn\'t the first to say that AA had nothing to do with your success at quitting drinking. I noted that YOU SAID that you aren\'t sure if that particular step work helped you stop.
Was that your original point? That \"One was done in a group, non private, almost competitive, forum and the other was done in a confidential setting\". Or are you backtracking, changing the scenario now that you have been called out?
What difference does any of the above have to do with the specific expression you made? Nothing. It\'s smoke imo, to deter myself or hopefully anyone else that reads this interaction from taking notice.
lol, it doesn\'t matter Clara. Alcoholic or not, you\'re talking AA shit, promoting it here by describing the \"hope\" it offered you. This being a place that many people come to read or interact with others that had similar negative experiences with the program, it is not appreciated. If for some reason you weren\'t able to figure that out on your own previously, then I am telling you outright. No beating around the bush. With that now being known and understood, would you respectfully discontinue promoting AA here?
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Mon, 04/30/2012 - 06:37
Permalink
Perhaps I am confused, Avo,
Perhaps I am confused, Avo, but weren\'t you the one that pushed the spontaneous remission angle toward me? I am not telling a person that believes she found a great deal of help and support in an a program that it didn\'t accomploish anything for her. Look at the posts in any of these forums that were focused on me and see what they say. Despite a history of alcohol abuse and what happened as a result, I am not an alcoholic because others on this board had it so much worse. Because I didn\'t binge for 2 years, I am not an alcoholic. Why are any of these non-professional people diagnosing me? It seems to be that this panel is doing just what they felt had been done to them in AA, but that they rebel against as wrong and improper. But I have given it all thought instead of using it just as something to fuel anger at something. I never tried anything else, so I don\'t know if something other than AA would have worked for me. I never gave a full try to just putting it down and walking away from it. I didn\'t see that as an option while also maintaining the friends I thought I had. Until I used AA to create a different life for myself, it didn\'t seem possible. I have often posted about how I don\'t think so because I see their antics on facebook, and I have no reason to think that I wouldn\'t still be involved somehow. People use that I don\'t go to meetings in EP to the same level as I did in MB as \"proof\" that I don\'t need themWhen that isn\'t fair.
To be honest, I don\'t put the 4th and 5th simply in an AA context. I truly believe that working through life\'s travails is a good thing, whether you do it in a shrink\'s office, with a priest, with your best friend... But I find in a group environment that you describe to be horrendous. Why does EVERYone need to know? That is one reason why I am glad not to be famous and having someone want to right some book about me. Not that it is all that interesting or tawdry, but when Simon Cowell said he hid in his house under a pillow over the disclosures that might be in this book that is being released about him... I felt sorry for the him. Of course, that could just be a ploy to generate interest, but he could sincerely mean it. The point of those steps is not to put you under review to everyone. It is to ease US and to free us.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Mon, 04/30/2012 - 07:08
Permalink
What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.....in AA
Despite the dominant male role of AA that some of the more dysfunctional AA groups that promote male Sponsors to female Sponsees portray as being OK by AA circuit speaker evangelists, the concept of recovery is a definite feminist issue that is being dominated by Alpha males.
Case in point, an AA apologetic comes to the Orange Papers spouting slogans and pushing cult propaganda, something that everyone here has seen and dislikes. The same AA apologetic makes up a fairytale story of only have 6 beer binges and realizing that they needed AA and were never mandated to AA. Through the constant pushing of Oxford Group, Bill Wilson style nagging to confess, the same AA apologetic changes her story to six very strong Grande Mariners and being arrested for multiple DUI and being on probation for three years, a complete reversal of the original story. Which is true?
The other thing that this AA apologetic is doing is portraying the type of person who lies to a great extent that may become friends with someones family, friends, employers, clergy, etc.... these are the people that will go to any extent, including constant lying to destroy someones life in the false guise of Spirituality and rationalize the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous. They can be given multiple examples of the problems in AA and all they do is claim it doesn\\\'t happen in their cult, which eventually they break down and quit lying and admit it does happen.
Recovery from a cult is a long process and the AA apologetic do not make it easy, because they lie, which can be easily seen from this example. The worse possible scenario of an AA apologetic I can see with this example is that they are ruthless and prospect hunt. The next door neighbor that drinks a six pack on super bowl day is in danger of his entire life being destroyed by these people. They are the scourge of Spiritual abuse.
Thank-you for giving us such a blaring real time example of the wacko Spiritual abusers of Alcoholics Anonymous.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
becket
Mon, 04/30/2012 - 15:14
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\" . . . six very strong
\" . . . six very strong Grande Mariners . . .\" This is the part where Kevin McClory, Allen Ginsberg, Jim Thorpe, Jack Kerouac, James Dougherty and Perry Smith all get together and pour booze down Clara\'s throat, ensuring her inevitable arrest on charges of DUI?
Your stories get funnier and funnier, JR Harris. I do think, though, that since you\'re talking about six men and not six women, the \"e\" should be omitted from \"Grand\".
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
avogadno
Mon, 04/30/2012 - 14:29
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Your doing it to get back at
Your doing it to get back at people? That\'s tit for tat, a childs game.
I stayed out of the interaction about your alcohol intake or status. No, it wasn\'t me that said anything about spontaneous remission. Would you like my opinion?
I assume from your repetition (quote below) that your answer is no, you will continue to promote AA step work despite my making it clear how much it is unappreciated and even asked outright for you to stop doing so.
\"The point of those steps is not to put you under review to everyone. It is to ease US and to free us\".
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Mon, 04/30/2012 - 15:33
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My apologies to you. I have
My apologies to you. I have had so much diagnosis thrown my way, I cannot keep the theorists straight.
Avo, I could be wrong, but weren\'t you talking about those steps? \"How it was\" is something I hear in AA alot. Am I confusing an exercise here? I am not doing it intentionally, but everyone keeps claiming that all they push is rehabs are step programs. I used to write those same things when I would romance it and think how I had lived wasn\'t all that problematic. It also helped me make peace with my past.
I don\'t know where you get the \"get back at people...\"
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Mon, 04/30/2012 - 15:50
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If you had not have lied when you first came here
If you had not lied when you first came here, people would want your input. Lying about having a masters degree in Criminal Justice when you know nothing about the field, claiming to have never been a low bottom drunk only drinking a six pack or mandated, then admitting you were on probation for three years, have multiple DUI and promote opposite sex sponsorship is reprehensible. You are even a disgrace to the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous, which says a lot.
Exposing the lies of AA members, one member at a time. Shame on you.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
becket
Mon, 04/30/2012 - 15:53
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To Clara: \"If you had not
To Clara: \"If you had not lied when you first came her, people would want your input.\"
Are you fucking insane? Those who subscribe to religions other than the Orange Papers are not welcome here, never have been, and will never be. So who\'s the liar, JR Pinocchio Harris?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Ironic
Mon, 04/30/2012 - 09:52
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Avo, don\'t get mad
Whenever the trolls (in this case, Clara) start talking that AA nonsense, I try to remember what Ben and JR say. Which is, if they\'re wasting their time doing it here, that\'s less time they have to proselytize to a vulnerable person who may be in too bad a place to see through the billshit.
Like you, I know that Clara and becket are only here to upset people, many of whom are victims of abuse. You just have to feel sorry for them..if Clara had the full life she claims to, why would she be the top poster here? It\'s too funny and sad.
becket
Mon, 04/30/2012 - 15:23
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You are not the only victims
You are not the only victims of abuse here, Ironic. And the abuse that characterizes this forum appears in the form of repeated character assassination. You don\'t think that shit is abusive?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
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