Depression and God

Submitted by humanspirit on Thu, 04/26/2012 - 11:59

Not quite as off-topic as it seems. There's an interesting debate going on over at the Guardian at the moment - apparently some evangelical christian has said that depression is caused by ego, resentments, self-pity, etc. and that finding God is the answer (now where have we all heard something like that before?):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/apr/26/god-cure-depr...

Substitute 'addiction' for 'depression' and you'll get what I mean by this not being off-topic.

Comments

gigi

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:07

You seriously need to consider doing a thorough inventory of your motives and behavior concerning your presence on the OP forum. **to Clara**

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:23

I don\'t think so, Gigi. I was attacked from the first moment. It has nothing to do with me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:37

There are always three sides to every story, Clara: your side, my side and the truth.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:49

In this case, there is also an online trail that demonstrates the immediate reaction to my presence, so I guess there is a fourth.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 14:15

Like I said though, stop being in AA and see if your stepper buddies call. Sure, they\\\'ll call a few times to try and recruit you back, but once you make it clear that you are no longer going to step, see if they don\\\'t cut you off just as quickly as you say your former drinking crew did.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 14:19

I see those same people, doing the same things, and I would have been down there with them.

I am sure that is what many people who leave AA think when they see their old stepper friends. Same thing every day and every meeting.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 14:47

It comes down to common groud. I had less in common with those people when I stopped drinking. When I visit Annapolis, I still go to some of the places to see some of them, but I wouldn\'t have been able to do that in my first year.

I am still available to friends I made in AA that have left. It works for a while, but some fell away because it isn\'t interesting to listen to the drunk life, especially when they aren\'t happy with it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 15:02

because it isn\\\'t interesting to listen to the drunk life, especially when they aren\\\'t happy with it.

This describes about 90% of every AA meeting I have been to.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 15:08

Dunno. It is hard to listen to someone at lunch talk about something when it is clear what she needs to do about it, AA or not. It\'s another going to a meeting and hearing the same or similar thing, but with people laughing in disbelief about what is now so obvious to them but escaped them earlier.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 14:51

I don\'t think so. I didn\'t leave AA. I MOVED. Many people on my Facebook are AA members and we hook up online all of the time.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 08:18

That is good advice Ben.

I second it and hope she follows it.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 08:52

I don\'t believe in threats, Ironic.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:04

Judgment, without the e, is the preferred spelling of the word. But spelling isn\'t the point, is it?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:09

Change the original and then tell everyone else they are wrong...lol.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:15

LOL. I obviously don\'t worry over spelling.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:18

I think we are all capable of deciphering the meaning of miss spelled words.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Unhinged

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:19

We are all guilty of not spoken proper England at times.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:21

Thank you. This criticism of people\'s spelling and grammar has to stop on both sides.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 05:39

Has all the HTML you can use on here.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 20:35

The insane volume of her comments on OPF represent her views only and do represent those of AA.

jonnijoy's picture

jonnijoy

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 05:09

Bye good says; I spent many sleepless nights when I came out CRYING over what a terrible person I was led to believe I was. My hair is still in ruins from it all breaking off and falling out over the stress.
JJ says; Grow a spine lol

patti

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 06:31

avogadno,
I also experienced the put downs, being berated & belittled for my appearance, my mind, any & all "flaws", I had according to AA members. What is really, really scary & dangerous about AA, is you have a few mentally ill guys, who couldn't hold jobs, Wilson & Buchman, who developed their own psycho babble & found a following of vulnerable, lonely, probably friendless & unintelligent people, such as Clara to pass it on. A question for Clara & all other trollers, if every one who has an addiction problem is plagued by a medical disease & a spiritual sickness, somehow simultaneously, why does AA allow & support that unqualified & non professional people such as yourself administer treatment? Are you a Doctor? Where did you go to medical school? You diagnose the folks on this forum, as sick, what qualifications, education or training do you have to diagnose any one, including your self? How do you & Beckett "help" 'sick" folks, by berating them for having a different opinion & experience than you? How do you help "sick" people on this forum or any where in the world, by you lacking the most basic of humane qualities & civility, manners & polite behavior, by refusing to respect that our opinions & experiences are different than yours. How can you think that the persona you present on this forum, the lack of maturity, any intelligence, you repeatedly communicate that you lack any qualities of the evolved human, no empathy or compassion, the inability to respect others & live & let live, how can you think you are going to help people come to AA? Actually, you & Beckett more than any one else on here, are the poster kids that would discourage people from going to AA. You accurately represent the negative & whacky, close minded & pious know it all hypocrite AA, one & the same persona, that cause's 97% of people to flee AA & it's members. Even people in jail, reject AA & people like you.
Back to the issue @ hand, Avogadno, I was picked apart relentlessly by my "friends" & "fellows" in AA, for any & every thing, additionally the critiques were contradictory, one week what I did was ok., the following not. I felt like I was back in Jr. High School, being attacked by the mean girls, the popular kids. What was good for me, was in my group, a little outside crew formed & we started to compare notes & we all saw the same crazy & unhealthy behaviors of the group & the members & we all rolled & stopped going & the relief was immediate & the health benefits were immediate. Relentless nagging & hyper criticism could led to potentially getting drunk again, just for the stress blow off necessary after being subjected to the unhealthiness of AA & it's members. In an environment such as AA, created by a couple of mentally ill guys, who couldn't hold jobs, what can develop & endure but an unhealthy environment composed of unhealthy persons who behave like children, due to being treated like children & following "suggestions" like children. It's a sad & unhealthy spot, I believe we will see it's stagnation & collapse in our life times. Addicts, current & former, such as myself, yes I am an ex drinker, I do not have an incurable disease that some crazy lazy dude diagnosed, we finally have a voice, due to the internet & we are here to protect & represent the current vulnerable & fragile addict. It is always good after being subjected to a unhealthy & manipulative environment such as AA to interact with others who have experienced the negativity & insanity of "the program" & know just how you felt. I feel so much better about myself, life & being due to quitting an environment where I was berated, belittled & verbally abused by the "fellowship". Best wishes for you, just leaving that environment improves one's life, well being & self image immediately & tremendously & not living your life being picked apart by a gang of dumb sheep is immediately beneficial & enhancing to one's quality of life. What blows my mind is that I was ever there or stayed as long as I did & subjected myself to that insanity & those mean & crazy & silly girls & guys!

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 07:42

Pretty interesting remarks for such a "newcomer."

I don't think there is anything wrong with suggesting to someone that they clean up a bit. My friend Dena was such a mess after rehab that she had to be told to brush her teeth, put on some make up and come to the meeting. You don't seem to understand that mine is the opinion that is always berated, Patti, because they differ from most on the panel. But I don't think it is a reason to become what you've described, yet you see it each day. Even in a reasonable exchange, there is always someone that forgets principles over personalities and makes it all personal. If I wrote a post such as your, Brett and a few others, they would be picking apart the typos and grammar. The only determining factor here for tolerance is if you are an anti or not. Sad. I never eperienced that in AA. Then again, those were much happier people, so they could pass on happiness instead of derision.

As for your appearance, aren't you the one that suggested sending in a cute and pretty, forlon journo so that she could report her experiences? What is wrong with telling someone to clean up a bit if they can? I sat next to the guy whose short were rotted through with urine enough to know that I didn't want to do that regularly, but he couldn't help it all that much. But a person with access to water, soap, some shampoo and make up, (imo) is investing in their emotional wellbeding by using it. I took a girlfriend to the store to stock up her house, and when I saw her buying those very things, I took heart that she was feeling better on the inside and taking interest in what she looked like. You know what they say. Looking good on the outside to hid the inside mess. It can also indicate progress of your mental state. we would go to dinner after the ladies meeting, so it because kind of an evening out. There is also alot to be said for feeling better because you look better. You don't need AA for that; any ladies magazine will tell you the same thing.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 08:40

I somehow got involved with a group of gals in the program that were just like the high school \"in\" crowd, a group that was more interested in what we wore and how we wore it. It\'s all about choosing the right sponsor I guess, now how did I get so lucky? I didn\'t care who was dating too, or why Mary didn\'t care enough to lose some weight. \"It\'s up to you if you want to waste your time on that med\", no not telling me meds were wrong just THAT ONE? Oh no, don\'t you listen? Goodness no, my sponsor thought it more important that I get my nails done rather than build a fort and make mud pies with my boys. Yes, I\'m nit-picking a bit I get the giggles a bit when thinking back to how I finally thought I was going to get some tips on staying sober but found myself at a women\'s meeting and hearing gossip about \"good lays\" and the next turn, \"oh no, she doesn\'t work a good program\". Whoever that was just didn\'t \"fit\" because of their appearance or choice of partners, nothing to do with their sobriety or how they sought it.

Back to Billy-Bob, I never knew really \"who\" they were until I got out. They had these fancy paintings of them both at my treatment center, right next to the meditation/prayer room. Like a shrine, and them in their best duds, composed - very serious. How they are admired, makes me feel a bit sick. The reality of who they really were hit me hard. I have always had a soft, respectful spot for the deceased, as if that actually made their lives more admirable. Here I thought that they had the compassion for sick alcoholic and gave their lives up to help the poor souls. But, not. The truth was they were controlling, religious fanatic, abusive, philandering, using, conning, thieving, lying, self inspiring, greedy. It all fits, yet saddens me because like most people I wanted to believe that there was actually something in our era that was profound and deep, without any self involved, only for the good of mankind. So I was disappointed too. It\'s always hard to face the truth and easier to ignore for those that just want or NEED to believe in something good. But it\'s not, just another sham.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

nomore12step

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 08:49

great post Patti! I agree 100%. I knew if I stayed reading on this forum eventually I would hear \"my story\", lol.

billybudd

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 07:47

In 'Merican parlance likely means "headcase".

Even believers would not think praying was a solution for a broken leg or malaria, so why should addiction be regarded any differently?

A "solution" may come in various forms, rarely, regarding suffering, in the literal sense, though some swear by hangover remedies involving liquid mixtures - analgesics dissolved, for instance.

tags for block quotes: < blockquote>text< /blockquote> (remove spaces ( ))

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 07:50

A broken leg will heal itself. I don't know much about malaria, but you keep feeding an addiction. I can see where prayer can help there... and has.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 18:37

There ya go Clara, knowing full well that most of the board takes offense at the prayer/HP aspect involved in their recovery, but having to declare how it\'s helpful. That\'s a huge diss right there, saying \"prayer can helped...and has\". Keep religious aspects out of recovery. If you want to seek it fine, please go somewhere that it\'s appreciated being discussed as a coping method. It is not appreciated here.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 18:44

That\\\'s very interesting, Avo. I agree that this is an Anti AA board, but that doesn\\\'t mean that everyone is necessarily an atheist. I have found prayer to be a great coping method through the deaths of two parents and other challenging life events. It doesn\\\'t have to have anything to do with recovery.

Do you consider meditation to be prayer?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Brett

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 19:27

If ya can\'t handel a 6 pak, ya haven\'t got a prayer.

Brett

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 19:45

I can vouch for that as a fact. I am not an atheist and I don\'t appreciate the religiosity of the program. It is offensive and presumptuous. I\'m completely baffled that while you claim to know that we have have different views and a different experience, you continually stick around and shove it in our face. It\'s bothersome.

If I had a main pet peeve about the program, it would be the religious aspect. This may sound odd to you, coming from a theist, but consider that it is assumed that just because a person has faith they have to accept that the faith includes a belief that God has a will for us and that he will provide a miracle.

It\'s a mind-fuck to put the pressure of a spiritual shift on people that are already emotionally and mentally suffering. It\'s called spiritual abuse. AA takes advantage of people that are sick.

No, I don\'t think meditation is prayer. It can be, but it certainly doesn\'t have to be.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 19:54

I find it interesting that I don\'t feel anyone else\'s pov is \"shoved\" in my face even if it differs from mine. I feel that I am in a learning environment. At least that is what I thought it was supposed to be when I read some of Orange\'s papers. I didn\'t feel that way in AA, either, as I was there too by choice.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Brett

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 20:00

Yes clara ya got a lot to learn if ya think a 6 bloody beer binge an alcoholic makes. 6 bloody beer binge for fkn fks sake lmao.

Brett

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 20:09

I couldn\'t see how you would believe that anyone\'s opinion is being shoved at you. No one has told you that you should be here, that you need to be here, or that would die without participating here. In fact, the consensus has been that you move along and post in forums where your puff is appreciated.

I understand the draw of the OP and appreciate that you have learned from it. Why then are your comments not focused on what you have learned? They are only repetitive stories of how wonderful your experience was, a pov that no one here is interested in. I find your presence here annoying and troubling. Do you not care that you are having this affect on me and others here? If you do, then why don\'t you say your goodbyes and let us be. You don\'t have to say that you agree, just respect the collective stance. I wouldn\'t want to stick around when it had been made clear that I was troubling others.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 20:20

Because I continue to learn and this is also a tool for me in sobriety. I do see troubled people on this board, Avo. I see people that I am far from convinced are sober. Perhaps physically but not mentally or emotionally. A brand new poster has come in with a vengence, describing her experience in AA as an adult style version of \"Mean Girls\" when that is just as she behaves toward AND with others here. What was the lesson for that sober person? How is she better than those in AA? I don\'t see it and I would believe this still if her target had been someone other than myself. I am not sure if hurt people absorb the behaviors out of those they disliked as much as I see on this board. It is fascinating in its way.

While my experiences in MB were wonderful... I\'ve yet to feel this same way in EP. It rather brings me to the conclusion that it isn\'t AA or the program itself, it\'s the people and their commitment to sobriety. I\'m on record here as saying if EP had been my first experience in AA, I probably wouldn\'t have stayed.

Maybe I should go to SOS, which allows for the disease model and a god. Abstinence, relapsing is frowned upon. It isn\'t Harm Reduction. You have to want to stop.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 20:33

So now this is a tool, posting on OPF helps in your sobriety? Yet you claim that you are not convinced we are sober. I don\'t see how that is helpful.

Where else do you post online for support on your sobriety? I take it there isn\'t an AA board for your old group in MB, because you would be there for your needed support.

Do you think you really need support anymore? It\'s been 5 years right?

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 20:37

I have always said that, Avo. Yes, it is a tool. No, we don\'t have an AA board from my old group unless you consider Facebook...Yes, there are times when I need support. I definitely needed it when my dog was going through such a horrible time. I got through it with love and support from my husband, my old group, new meetings when I could make them (a ladies meeting I like), online blogs, and the first source every morning...my prayers. I would still need support even with 10 years sobriety.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Brett

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 22:42

maybe you should go to sos? why do they think a 6 beer binge is alcoholic drinking? 6 bloody beer binge I\'ve not laughed so hard for so long, the sheer number of your posts,& your a 6 beer binger lol lol you certainly have a problem but it aint drinking lol lol

i

Brett

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 06:37

Brett, that is the problem with all of these options that some on the board feel are so much better than AA. There are no SOS meetings here nor are there any SMART.

For you, I didn\'t have a drinking problem. For me, the impact the use made on my life shows me that I did. One thing in AA is that you don\'t compare your drinking to that of others.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Brett

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 13:55

did those 6 beer binges have, don\'t spare the gory details, tell us about your 6 pak rampage. 6 bloody beer binge- o me o my I\'m a powerless alcoholic, 6 bloody beers fer fkn fks sake, lol lol

Brett

Unhinged

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 13:59

LOL!

gigi

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 11:56

Clara, you said that you feel that this forum can be a tool for you in sobriety and that you see troubled people here that you are far from convinced are sober. Ok, I get it. You believe that some posters here need help and that you are qualified to provide that help. So you spread your message here as often as you can, hoping to reach one of us. And this helps to keep you sober. Has it ever occurred to you that nobody here has asked for the type of help that you are able to offer? Do you not take it seriously that those you presume to be troubled and not sober have never once expressed interest in giving AA another go? Do you honestly believe that you can make a positive impact on anyone on this board? My questions are sincere, BTW.
If you are looking to practice the 12th step there are plenty of places where your input would be welcome. Try posting on the soberrecovery forum-there\'s always plenty of people asking for help and looking to learn about AA. You\'re in the wrong place here.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:46

I never said that I was here for you. I have never suggested anyone give AA another try. I\'ve never said I was qualifed to help. I don\'t understand all of your assumptions. What I hear are a number of things that really aren\'t true about AA as a whole. The big thing about Marty Mann is a good example. She WAS given permission from Bill W to break her anonymity. The traditions were being formed in those early years and the anonymity factor was one of the first because of the overall social stigma for drunks. Marty\'s work was to try to change that. But no one wanted to acknowlege Bill\'s statements about it or how he came to see that as a mistake. When I get her bio later in the week, perhaps I will find out Marty\'s take on it.

I don\'t expect to make a positive impact on the regulars on this board. But there may be a lurker that can be corrected on some things. Where is this idea that you can\'t speak up in meetings? That you lose your identity when you come into AA, or that you must check your rights at the door to belong? Those untrue things are regularly discussed on this board. That you FELT you couldn\'t dissent at a meeting doesn\'t make it true for all. That you want to THINK that you must become submissive isn\'t true, either. Or that you have to give your darkest secrets in meetings? Or your sexual inventory? Our book is pretty clear on that. It\'s between you and your God. I never shared anything anything in meetings that i particularly cared if the world knew.

But none of this is any reason to abuse anyone else for a difference of opinion, and that is what it amounts to. Those are not usual behaviors. My husband blocked certain posters because their behavior was just unnecessary and creepy. They might see me, but I don\'t see them.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 12:59

That all sounds really nice, but I still maintain that you should check your motives more carefully. You\'re not being honest. On second thought though, you should probably steer clear of soberrecovery and sites like it. You could end up lulling some vulnerable newcomers into a false sense of security. Not much chance of that here.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 13:23

My motives are sincere, and that you don\'t think so matters not, Gigi.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 08:01

Unless you're addicted to self masochism and do it deliberately. Quit with the mumbo jumbo crap and at least use examples that are remotely the same.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

jonnijoy's picture

jonnijoy

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 12:55

People talking about christians and blasphemy. What a fucking joke! DO YOU AMAZINGLY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE really believe that the earth was created by god only 6000 years ago? That he made 2 white people and a talking snake? That Noah lived to be 950 years old? That Jonah was swallowed by a whale? That jesus was an immaculate conception? That Moses parted the sea? That Noah built a giant ark and gathered up every single species of animal and insect and got them on his ark before the flood? How can any Christian have the balls to make fun of AA?? Its like the giant pot calling the little kettle black.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 20:40

JJ, AA is no joke. It\\\'s a serious head game. I don\\\'t think the debate is establishing what people think is more \\\"insane\\\" (AA or Christianity), it\\\'s whether AA is acceptable as a recovery group for substances. I\\\'m calling AA a religion. What makes AA worse than many other religions is the very claim that it is not one and the methods that are used to get people to join are deceptive. I\\\'ve never gone to church under the notion that I would be participating or observing religious sessions.

Edit.
I meant to say:

I\'ve never gone to church under that notion that I would be participating in or observing ANYTHIN BUT religious sessions.

My bad.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 20:25

\" I\'ve never gone to church under the notion that I would be participating or observing religious sessions.\"

SAY WHAT?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 20:37

lol, definitely a miss-type there. I apologize for the confusion.

I meant to say that I\'ve never been to Church under any notion other than the understanding that I was attending a religious service.

Does that make better sense?

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

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