HAMS Harm Reduction

Submitted by disclosure on Sun, 04/10/2011 - 22:15

Forums:

When AA let me down I went over to HAMS!
The worse thing about AA is that they tell you they are the only thing that works!
AA is a deadly cult that will hold you hostage, tell you that you suffer from a make believe disease, and if you leave you may die.
P.S. AA, Many of my friends who stayed died.
Don't let the courts, Dr. Drew, or any other hospital program force you into AA. You deserve to choose for yourself!

tristam (not verified)

Mon, 08/01/2011 - 15:52

>"AA is a deadly cult that will hold you hostage, tell you that you suffer from a make believe disease, and if you leave you may die."
A-FUCKING-MEN

And congrats with finding a program that works for you.

disclosure

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 11:30

When Stanton asked a group of addicts and alcoholics what the most difficult drug to quit was they replied tobacco. I took this information and decided to do a harm reduction experiment on myself. I have been using tobacco once a month for six months now. I use and then have thirty abstinence days before using again. The first couple of months were mildly difficult and I did experience discomfort mid way through my abstinence days. The last two months were easy and I was not preoccupied with tobacco. I believe I am learning new habits and smoking with a minimum potential for harm.

massive's picture

massive

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 20:15

disclosure. I love this! Thanks for talking about it. Im going to promote moderation in both my film and in my activist work, placing Ads on Buses , on benches, promote, promote, promote and with the courts!

Massive

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 19:09

I concur that nicotine is the worst drug for quitting. Just ask Boniface to ask Bill W if you don't believe me. Apparently god ain't no help with nicotine?

However, I have never tried heroine.

massive, educate, educate, educate and promote alternatives.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 13:52

"However, I have never tried heroine."

Maybe she wanted a hero instead of you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 14:34

How we've got Marietta here to correct grammar and spelling for us (even if she is a bit choosy about who she picks on...lol). How could we ever get by without her. Every time she finds a fault it just makes her more and more popular. We shaould all thank her regularly...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 15:39

Pot calling the kettle black... No one is more selective than you are, Ben.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:08

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours."

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

disclosure

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 12:03

Yesterday I got a call from an old AA friend, he told me he was drinking and wanted to die. He told me he had something to sell me for pennies on the dollar and would I come over. I agreed and bought his things because I like to make money and he would sell it to someone else if I didn’t buy it. There were three of us at his place so it naturally was a meeting; the topic was what do you hate about AA? My response; I hate that AA’s create a belief system in each other that promotes self destruction. My friend had been drinking at one month intervals for several months with 30 days of abstinence between. He had essentially been working a harm reduction program, not knowing it the only difference being the cost benefit analysis and his AA core belief that he would die if he did not return to the AA group. The other person hated the fact that even though it is denied, AA’s with time are thought to have rank within the organization. Someone who gives up their abstinent time looses their rank. Our drinking friend said that he hated the lies posted on the meeting walls; Live and Let Live, Easy Does It, Think, Think, Think, and so on. He thought there should be a sign that says Jails, Institutions, Death! I gave him some HAMS/ HR material to read and said he should consider enjoying his drinking through reducing or eliminating the harm it does. I also told him that if he liked to use AA as a support during his abstinence days that he should feel free to. Better is better!

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 13:08

For me, that describes the real harm of AA. I used to quit, go to aa, get enthusiastic, get my life back together, start thinking straight, realise what a crock of shit AA was, stop going to meetings and eventually drink again. There would have been no need to drink again if AA hadn't instilled the belief that without them you are doomed. Once you start drinking again, it is so easy to tell yourself the AA was right and subsequently drink to destruction out of depression. It is a dangerous cycle that I'm sure has caused many, many deaths.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 14:12

Quit, go to AA, get enthusiastic,get your life back together, start thinking straight, realize what crock of shit AA was, stop going to meetings and eventually drink again.... Well, with the exception of thinking AA is a crock, you've described a regular relapser. I don't think it was AA; it was just you. This is a victim's role - "if not for AA..." It seems that if not for AA, the good stuff wouldn't have happened for you. You got in the way.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 14:32

Is this another category that AA have invented to heap shame and guilt onto those who "don't get the program"?. So, what you're saying is Clara that, depending on what they do after leaving AA, those no longer going to meetings are either "Dry Drunks" or "Regular Relapsers"? Is that right ? You seem to have all bases covered there...lol.

AA has nothing to do with stopping drinking.

You try to talk as if this is an exception when, in fact, it is the rule. Most (95%+) of the people who go to AA leave. Fact. "Rarely have we seen a person fail......." - crock of horseshit...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 14:42

Not to mention that AA's main purpose is to bring members closer to God and to do Gods work. That's religious dogma. Take God and spirituality out and put coping mechanisms in. There isn't a single one (unless you count prayer). Why not teach people how to quit? To deal with cravings, cope with the depression and anxiety. Support members, instill them with the belief that they CAN DO IT, instead of tell them that they can't. Fucking insanity.

Instead they teach to pray and demand that God do it for them. That's not a quit drinking program.

There isn't a word written about what a person can do to battle a craving. Focusing on defects cause shame and guilt. When you feel that way you want to drink more. It's a hindering program that wants people to stay sick and keep coming back, becoming dependent. That's why they teach powerlessness. It's a killer.

5% stay sober and 29% die. Oh how awful!

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 16:51

I found those types of things In Living Sober.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

disclosure

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 16:47

Sure AA can help; it's a great big friendly helpful support group. As long as a person knows the potential for objectionable characteristics they should be safe. This thread is about harm reduction, whether used with or without AA it is the individual’s choice. It is untruthful for any AA to claim that anyone who was once in AA and leaves the group is in relapse. Also, any conjoined implication that they may die as a result of this is preposterous. There are many people in the world that belonged to AA, left after getting help, and then drank successfully for long periods of time, I know a few of them. Yes, there are those too who leave and stay abstinent and happy. I also know those who stayed sober in AA and drank under the belief that they had a disease only treatable with the program. Their belief system had become consistent with the relapse model; they drank poorly, and died. This thread is for those looking for alternatives to the only game in town, those who find the AA program offensive, religious, or otherwise repulsive. Why would anyone want to derail potential help with untrue comments?

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 16:53

Very good, Dis. AA has always known it wasn't the only game in town, and no one minds if someone wants to try something else.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:02

"Live and Let Live, Easy Does It, Think, Think, Think."

Does your friend think these are lies because they are faulty concepts or because no one seems to abide by them?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

disclosure

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 16:50

He didn't like the statements because he thought they were untrue.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 16:54

I think some are true and some are silly. I don't know many, though, that are really original to AA. Are they?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 17:09

The true ones are from AA. The silly ones are from those other anonymous groups.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:05

These are two different thoughts. If he thought the slogans were "a waste of space", whose space were they wasting and why did that cause such consternation?

You say "he thought they were untrue". What is it that he thought was untrue? How is "Live and Let Live" untrue?? Are you next going to say he thought the Golden Rule was "untrue"? Is the number 5 untrue?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

disclosure

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 18:05

He thought the slogans posted on the walls were not representative of what actually happens in the AA program. He wanted to see "recover or die" posted on the walls because it would be more in line with what he was told by members with time. In any case he is completely turned off to AA and moving on to options that are acceptable to him. I just don't want to see another friend die. This fellow has been surrounded by book thumpers for years to no avail, it is time for him to try something else.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 14:32

I used to think that abstinence was the only way. Not only for me, but also for my brothers for instance. They were in and out of AA for 20+ years and now one is dead, one is in prison, and one is in terrible shape drinking morning through night. I can’t handle being around him, he’s not allowed near me or my house. I wish there was more harm reduction programs that were accessible so that they could learn how to live without killing themselves. They are Native American and could have gotten into a wet-house from where their reservation is located but we learned of it 10 years after the fatality and also after they were brainwashed to believe that they are powerless. This disease theory kills. Telling people that they can't learn maintenance and that “one is too many but a thousand isn't enough” kills also. So they go have a thousand, believing that they have to. I think the Government kills too, by just giving them money to buy more alcohol. His food stamps always went to alcohol also. So why not give them food? That's what I wish.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

steve cochrane's picture

steve cochrane

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 23:18

It does kill Avo. It only reinforces how they already feel. Hell how I once felt!! It was only my will to survive that kept me alive. I was fighting a battle on two fronts. One with myself and one with AA and I didn't even realize it. AA is where people go that have problems with alcohol right? Thats just a given. I have much to say especialy now that I know that your Brother is a Native American . But I will not. I cannot even imagine what it must feel like to have your entire culture and heritage ripped apart. Then one is expected to live a happy and prosperous life? I am speechless at the moment and share your pain. Much Love to you Avo and your Brother. I also have some thoughts on how he can get better. I will chat with you soon.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 21:13

Thanks Steve, I appreciate those kind words. Actually, two of my brother are Indians. They were all with me when I was born (I\\\'m the youngest) so I never thought of them any different. They were raised \\\"white\\\" and even though I don\\\'t think they begrudge that at all, I do see that they have different instinct and always have.

I see that, looking back, how they adapted to an nonmodernsociety much more easily than the one they were raised in. I\\\'m not saying I know, but it certainly appears as if their genetics allow for them to be more comfortable outside, in the woods, like living off of the land so to speak. It\\\'s a shame they were \\\"forced\\\" to live differently but at the same time it allowed for potentially a better life than they would have had. They certainly didn\\\'t learn their drinking habits from other Indians. Since we were all raised the same but are of different heritage, I wonder how it can be only a coincidence that they have quite a different reaction to alcohol than me and the others? I\\\'ve read the reports, that it\\\'s socialization, not genetics. Yet they have a completely different bodily reaction to alcohol than me. I am thankful FOR them though. They do know their heritage, are welcome at their home reservation, and do have the paper-work to back it up. I don\\\'t think they are really comfortable there either. Yes it is sad.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Brett

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:08

A harm reduction, would be limiting oneself to a 6 beer binge ?
6 bloody beer binge lol

Brett

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:19

Brett, I can't roast you enough for your reprehensible "6 bloody beer binge lol" right after avogadno's wrenching story about her brothers. You have reached a new low on the scale of man's inhumanity to man.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Unhinged

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:22

becket your talents are wasted on here

Brett

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 21:05

I'll be starting on your bludgen arse shortly, don;t be feeling neglected.

Brett

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 21:16

I'm not offended and wouldn't be by your rebuttal to Brent either. I appreciate the acknowledgement though. Occasionally I go there when I think of HArms reduction and feeling of a need to vent.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

patti

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 21:19

AMEN IS RIGHT & GOOD FOR YOU!!!

patti