Depression and God

Submitted by humanspirit on Thu, 04/26/2012 - 11:59

Not quite as off-topic as it seems. There's an interesting debate going on over at the Guardian at the moment - apparently some evangelical christian has said that depression is caused by ego, resentments, self-pity, etc. and that finding God is the answer (now where have we all heard something like that before?):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/apr/26/god-cure-depr...

Substitute 'addiction' for 'depression' and you'll get what I mean by this not being off-topic.

Comments

btnben's picture

btnben

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 12:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZhLDo09D68

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

humanspirit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 13:16

He has to deal with Clara's incessant demands every day, apparently - including her thoughts about how you should be dealt with. On top of that he has to miraculously find parking spaces for all those AA members who can't find one and keep them all individually sober one day at a time, while listening to their interminable drunkalogues. Wouldn't anyone get depressed by this?

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 13:50

Gosh, HS, who did you regularly post about when I wasn't here!

I have been provided with much! Why is a prayer every day necessarily about wants? How about gratitude and thanks?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

humanspirit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 14:03

What do you ask God for when you're praying about Ben?

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 14:14

I would say my prayers are between me and God.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 14:17

Sponsor? You said you prayed to that, didn't you? And somehow you ended up with a partner in the cult of NA. Wouldn't you say that NA is superior to the cult of AA since you found your husband there?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 15:17

Not TO the list, silly. JR, this is how you keep Cause confused. She reads your rewrites and absorbs them as what I've posted.

No, I am not a partner to anyone in any cult, nor did I go to NA other than one meeting that was opened to me since it had been advertised as an AA meeting (in Nebraska.)

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 15:21

No, clara. I read your posts and absorb them as what you post, not what JR posts.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 15:30

You do not or you wouldn't be so mistaken all of the time. JR just tries to drill it enough that something becomes some sort of "fact."

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:51

No, clara. I know what you've posted regarding certain things and know that you change your story once the heat is too much to tolerate. In other words, you are a liar.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:06

Not at all, Cause. Heat surely doesn't bother me. You are simply confused and that is it. You also choose to remain so when you've been corrected. In other words, you are a fool.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:14

When I've been mistaken, I've admitted it. When you've lied I've called you on it. You've provided absolutely no evidence otherwise. You expect people to believe your lies just because you say so and when confronted, simply say it again and consider that proof enough. You may take me for a fool but I am not.

BTW, I looked again at the SOS website and saw something I missed last night. It said SOS doesn't use steps. Therefore it's not AA lite

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becket's picture

becket

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:31

Are there no SOS characteristics that could make one find it to be similar to AA?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:39

Hey, I am not the one that originated that phrase, although I think it fits. Take it up with Gigi. Why aren't you attempting to argue the point with her? Oh, that's right. She's an anti. Despite that two people see SOS in reaonsably the same lght.

Yes, I think you are a fool, Cause. You said I went to meetings in DC when I haven't and there aren't posts to support where I ever said such a thing. I had left 10 years before joining the fellowship. I did that in MB. I don't owe you a moment by moment orgasmic account of my life, athough yu and JR wiat breathlessly for anything you can try to dispute. "Your timeline doesn't add up..." Why would you care about my timeline? I have no reason to lie, but I also have no obligation to disclose every detail of my life. I never went to Midtown meetings and don't know anything about them, yet you want to conclude that I do and am just distancing myself. What I disclosed was that I didn't bother to read the article because I was personally familiar with the author and his very sensationalistic writing as I drank with him in a bar in DC. I even named the establishment. Why can't you since you persue my posts with a comb?

You are a fool, Cause. A boring one at that.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 18:02

Gigi and I already discussed it like rational adults. She said she didn’t mean to offend anyone by calling SOS AA lite. I told her that it was, in fact, AA lite because I googled SOS and steps, and the site I found had some secular steps, so I was misled to believe they were SOS’s steps, which they are not. I found a disclaimer in red that says SOS has no steps earlier today. Therefore SOS is not AA lite.

I don’t care what you view me as. You told us all about your move from DC and that you did it because your sponsor told you to and why. You even told us where in the DC area your sponsor is from. I certainly don’t understand what you think is orgasmic about your life (in need of more ego deflation?) or why anybody would be breathlessly awaiting anything from you other than your departure. You are simply trying to distance yourself from midtown, and that’s understandable, but rigorously dishonest.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 18:08

She discussed it with all of us on the forum. What a nit you are!

Why is it that you cannot back up anything that you say with where you believe I said it? My sponsor isn't even from DC. It's okay to admit that you just got caught up in someone else's rewrites and are confused. You are simply wrong. Boy, AA sure is right when it discusses defiance as the hallmark of an alcoholic. Are you sure you aren't still a drunk?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:52

Youdid not. Someone else had to point out that you were wrong and you practically kissed her ring. No apologies to anyone else which is what you expect.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

humanspirit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:24

That must be a huge relief to God. At least he can be assured there are no bugging devices around.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:27

Do you mean He?

I am always amazed when people have an issue with others believing in God. Why not live and let live?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

humanspirit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:10

I have no problem with people believing in God at all. My parents were devout christians (but unlike your father, didn't go around pompously saying they were doing 'God's work' every day).

It's just that in some cases, especially when it comes to the 12 step religion, God (he/she/it) gets mightily put-upon, and I feel a bit sorry for he/she/it.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:19

Humanspirit, we're talking about stepism so it would be he/she/it/they.

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btnben's picture

btnben

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:29

Take the first letter of each - what does that spell - STEPISM!!!!!

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:35

Actually, the words in humanspirit's final reference to god would be "him/her/it". What does that lead to? btnben is "hhi"?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

humanspirit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:38

Sorry - I was forgetting the multiple gods of AA. Even a doorknob or group of AA members can be regarded as god, and will answer your prayers, remove all your defects of character, have an individual will for you, etc.

I must say my cat has been a pretty useless higher power. All she does is sleep all day, trample all over my keyboard when I'm trying to work, and whine for food. The universe hasn't been that good either - with just a few billion stars to worry about even in our own medium-sized galaxy, it seem inexplicably indifferent to my personal problems.

Seriously, though, if I were a religious person, I would find all this quite blasphemous.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 18:56

It is quite blasphemous, using a Christian prayer with specific origin and meaning to pray to light bulbs, cows, chairs, stars, the moon, etc. and on and on. It's demeaning really, and insensitive to expect Christians and/or atheists to respectfully accept it and carry on as if their actions aren't morbidly distasteful.

It is also blasphemous to be part of a group that allows being to be prayed to, that when members use the group/fellowship as their HP. To not be religiously invasive, one has to be thoroughly in tune with different religions. This is something AA is not, and certainly not any member/sponsor that walks in the door repeating dubious slogans as if their professionals of any sort.

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Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
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becket's picture

becket

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:01

If you're a drunk, blasphemy is the least of your problems.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:52

I like to assume that most AA's are not currently drinking, at least during the meeting and ending prayer. I rarely saw any.

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becket's picture

becket

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:04

"Live and Let Live" is a "dubious slogan"? Please explain. Aren't you advocating against derision of others' religions (or lack thereof)? How does "Live and Let Live" violate that precept? How does "Think Think Think" or "One Day At A Time" violate that precept?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 20:09

and the following are dubious:

-expect miracles
-don't quit 5 minutes before the miracle happens
-there are no coincidences in AA
-willpower = our willingness to use a higher power
-AA will work if you want it to work

I actually like "live and let live", but I didn't see this as an example of how most AA's live their lives.

I prefer to practice my beliefs in private, or with people that share the same beliefs with me. This out of respect for others, as well as for my personal comfort.

I especially prefer not to involve myself with people that try to pressure me or anyone else into a different belief. I cannot advocate a group that does this. It's an invasion of privacy and presumptuously rude.

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becket's picture

becket

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 13:28

\\\"-expect miracles
-don\\\'t quit 5 minutes before the miracle happens
-there are no coincidences in AA
-willpower = our willingness to use a higher power
-AA will work if you want it to work\\\"

These are derivative of something other than what is to be found in the Big Book, with the possible exception of the last one, which might be traced back to the \\\"thoroughly followed our path\\\" business. But even so, the BB provides a bit of a disclaimer in the word \\\"rarely\\\", as in \\\"rarely have we seen a person fail . . . \\\" The slogans you\\\'ve listed represent the morphing of the program into a homogenized, one-size-fits-all wet wool blanket that the treatment industry is guilty of tossing over any and all drunks and addicts who are seeking help.

I\'m sure someone here will connect the AA>morph dots for me on every phrase. Too long away from the program lessens the caring about the details.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 14:33

We liked A.A. all right, and were quick to say that it had done miracles.
12&12 p.97, Step Eleven

They had seen miracles, and one was to come to them.
BB p.161, A Vision For You

This Power has in each case accomplished the miraculous, the humanly impossible.
BB p.50, We Agnostics

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becket's picture

becket

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 19:02

Bernadette Soubirous claimed the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to her eighteen times. Was she hysterical? Was she hallucinating? What she bullshitting? Or did Mary appear to her 18 times?

You know what you know. You see what you see. I would trust that child to be telling the truth, even though it would be a challenge to imagine those appearances. I would not be in any position to call her a liar. I was not there. Maybe miracles only happen for those who believe in them. We can disbelieve if it is too fantastic for us, but of those on the OPF who believe in some kind of god, who among us can dismiss this as an absolute impossibility? Even an atheist might look at it and wonder about the forces at play in this world, forces about which we know absolutely nothing.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 17:49

My father was hardly pompous. Can you show me where it has been indicated that he was anything but humble? What a head you are.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

humanspirit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 18:48

I thought you said in one of your posts that he was into saying he was 'doing God's work' , and if he was having a bad day this was because God was concentrating on someone else (maybe one of the 6.5 billion other people on the planet - because obviously God can't think about more than one person at a time.) Not my idea of humility, but perhaps yours.

I'm interested in your use of the word 'head' here. I don't think it's current in British English, but if there are enough citations for it in this meaning in American English, I'll make sure it's added to our dictionaries. Can you supply a rough definition? (Thanks.)

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:36

You don't have any concept of his idea of stewardship, and you totally screwed up his message. Reread what was posted about it. I am not going to permit you to bring garbage to him just because you want to be an ass to his child.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

humanspirit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:46

What are you not going to "permit"? If you continually use members of your family, your husband, his ex, your friends, etc. as evidence for whatever nonsense you talk on this forum, then it is not for you to "permit" or forbid others to comment on it. Grow up.

What do you mean by "stewardship"? (Sorry, waste of time I know, as you always ignore requests for clarification and evade direct questions.)

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 20:14

See? You don't even have a clue as to what you are talking about. When you produce the post that you claim says I said that about my father, I will return to speaking with you. Otherwise, you simply are not good enough for me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:13

Too bad he didn't pass that trait down to you, Clara.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:37

He did.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:16

Did I miss the post where someone indicated that they had a problem with others believing in god? What are you talking about?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:37

Go back and read. I'm not providing clep notes because too much gets lost in the translation.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

DeConstructor's picture

DeConstructor

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 12:29

that 98% of all prisoners believe in god.

I am not sure of the credibility of that number, and whether or not the religious affilitation is intelligence related or an AA type ruse to portray good behavior for early release brownie points.

What we do know for sure is that many if not most of the great and influential people in society and history are atheists. Of course we have the obvious like Christopher Hitchens, but others such as Ernest Hemingway, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Tom Edison, Larry Flynt, and perhaps Barack Obama (we may find out more when when he is not up for election)
Regardless of any religious dogma, the better question might be the efficacy of using religion to cure diseases.

humanspirit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 13:02

Many of the most influential people, including some of our greatest scientists, were also believers (for example, Darwin and Newton).

But I completely agree with your last sentence. The 12 step program doesn't offer any solution for addiction whether a person believes in god or not. And as you say, using religion to cure illnesses, mental or physical, is sheer lunacy.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 13:25

What about the billions of religious people that have sought scientific treatment methods in the past?

I wonder how being afflicted with addiction can be deemed as different to them.

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humanspirit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 13:42

Yes, exactly. And actually, even though I'm not religious myself, I can't see that science should in any way come into conflict with anyone's religious beliefs. Doesn't make sense to me, as science is just about uncovering that which already exists in nature. In fact it is *only* within the 12 step context that I have personally seen any overt attempts to somehow denigrate "science", as if it were a threat to their own beliefs and sobriety, which just goes to show what a wacky religion it is.

Even believers would not think praying was a solution for a broken leg or malaria, so why should addiction be regarded any differently?

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 12:42

The article leading to discussion places blame not on the inflicted, but those that place judgment:

"Pride is most definitely the sin of the accuser, rather than the person imprisoned by whirlwind of self-loathing thoughts"

Depression often leads to substance abuse and addiction. Considering that depression and low self esteem go hand in hand, participating in a process of degradation with the induction of shame and guilt is counter productive. The last thing a depressed person needs is to feel worse about themselves. Since stepping is strategic demoralization of the self without any positive affirmations, it's more logical to stay the hell away from it.

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humanspirit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 12:53

Yes, I probably should have clarified that. The article is by someone opposing the viewpoint of the person who apparently expounded this theory on UK TV last night. I think the article itself is very good.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:02

I don't think that ego deflation is a bad thing and plenty of affirmations came out of it. I guess I wonder too if where you are coming from matters. Not everyone became a completely demoralized person.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

humanspirit

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:07

You say: "I don't think that ego deflation is a bad thing and plenty of affirmations came out of it. I guess I wonder too if where you are coming from matters. Not everyone because a completely demoralized person."

This is gooblydegook and makes no sense whatsoever. Is there something in the 12 step program that makes people unable to frame an argument or to use English? Explain, in particular, your last sentence.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:02

Name one universal positive affirmation that comes from working the program, please. I do hope that you can also explain to me how concentrating on one's defects can be positively uplifting when a person is suffering from extreme depression and low self esteem. The latter which are proven characteristics of approximately 60% of those afflicted with addiction.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

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