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So, here it is. Tell it like it is, peeps. I need to rest my hands now, but I'll be back with mine. I really want to hear people's stories. Maybe we can write a book together...
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 17:47
Boy, late into this discussion, but why ask someone something and then deride the answer?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Tue, 09/20/2011 - 08:46
I very much like this forum as well as the Orange Papers, and they have helped
me much more than AA/NA ever did. I never strung together more
than a few weeks of "complete" sobriety, and that was done in a halfway house.
However, Suboxone, therapy, and real information and personal advice such as this site have allowed me to leave dope behind, regain trust with my family, and go back to school. I am now nearly finished with my bachelors. I was working too, until I got laid off (with good references).
I may not be "sober" by AA standards but I am sober by Merriam Webster's standards, and my life is much better now. Good enough for me.
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:44
Have you and I emailed before. I love your posts. Can we talk. my email is firstname.lastname@example.org. Im making a film about this. A documentary.
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 13:33
I don't really know of anyone who has taken AA's philosophies/world views and analyzed them-if anyone knows of any good books or articles on this besides Orange let me know.
The idea that one person, if they have an issue with a group of people, can affect change on their own volition if they work hard enough-is that Calvinist? I know at bottom AA is Protestant and America is by and large a Calvinist society, but I was wondering if anyone knew where this idea of MARIETTA'S and AA's came from.
It is a very individualistic idea. I am not of the opinion that one person can always change his surroundings. Marietta can quote Gandhi etc. but those were movements not a person.
Does anyone here have a degree in sociology or the like and can tell me if there are theories about SOCIAL SYSTEMS as the cause of conditions in society as opposed to MARIETTA'S view which is that an individual is the cause of conditions?
BTW it is a central tenet of AA's steps that individuals (not groups, institutions or systems) cause conditions. Without this philosophy their steps 4-9 kind of break down. This is another reason I don't do the steps anymore. I don't believe this philosophy.
Can you tell I was a philo major lol
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 13:50
Start with Moral Relativism. Add Feminism. Stir and stand back.
I could not tell you were a philosophy major - why do you not know about MR?
Look, I don't mean to offend you. It's just that I'm personally exasperated by women who are coy about being violated and do little or nothing about it when it happens, or they wait and wait, or they take it to the wrong place to vent, looking for sympathy. There's nothing enlightened about that.
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 14:58
I am not sure where in my original post I said I was "coy about being violated" and then "did little or nothing about it" (your words) at the time. Nowhere is that in my original post.
I took action. I don't need to state here what action I took, because you are the type who, no matter what explanation I give, will have an answer for it. I don't have to explain to you or anyone what action I took.
You also use the term "vent" and "sympathy." I am doing neither. My original reason for posting this blog entry was to help others who might have had the same issues in AA, and to find out why others were here.
I have fully dealt with these issues outside of this forum, including doing multiple 4th steps on the subject. I got down to causes and conditions, and I saw my part. I took action, immediately, in my own way. If you saw venting in my original post, that is something for you to look at. I am merely talking about events as they happened around me through my own personal lens. You seem to see "venting" in many of our posts where I and others see none. We are not angry, not most of the time. We would love to have you go, but I am having just as much fun conversing with you as without. It is all practice, to me.
It's really sad that this whole topic has degenerated into a fight over whether I took enough and appropriate action when these events happened. I am not the perpetrator here.
I know, Marietta. You want to believe that I am ignorant, in the dark, full of hate, and miserable without AA. That's fine. If you want to believe I'm stupid and didn't study philosophy because I didn't see your philo reference (that you probably pulled from Wikipedia) coming, that is fine. My worth doesn't depend on what you think.
Please, beat me up some more, if it makes you feel better.
What I know: I am a woman of action, of worth, and compassion. I am a woman of discernment, of logic and reason. These are things I value, not always qualities I express because the one thing I know absolutely for sure is that I am a fallible, impermanent, changing being. I know that I have spent the last 10 years dragging my life out of the mud. I have worked very hard to get where I am emotionally, spiritually, physically, and materially, and AA wasn't there every step of the way.
This ends my conversation with you. You may say what you wish on my blog page. I am going to ignore it. It won't be the first time I've had a hater, and it won't be the last.
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 15:29
I don't think you're "ignorant, in the dark, full of hate, and miserable without AA." I don't know why you did multiple 4th Steps on the events if A.A. was so ineffective for you.
I pulled nothing from Wikipedia - another forum I used to post on identified me as a Moral Relativist, and I find that I have more in common with that school than most others.
"Coy" refers to dangling the violation carrot and then not identifying the nature of it. I just find that kind of high school. I'm 42 years out of high school, so I think I have a legitimate observation here.
Why should A.A. have been there every step of the way? I'm just having a whole lot of difficulty understanding why there is so much anger directed toward A.A. for not fixing every single thing that happens to us.
I don't hate. I have stepped into a hate party here, and a place where people deliberately refuse to consider anyone else's point of view, you included.
Woman of discernment? You cannot even discern a friend when you need one.
PS: if there are no quotation marks around my statement, that means it is an original statement and not one I am quoting from your or anyone else's posts. So my line about being coy should not be sought in your original post. I never claimed that you said it in anything you wrote. In fact, I take full credit for the statement, but no credit for your angst over it.
Here's what was said: "Look, I don't mean to offend you. It's just that I'm personally exasperated by women [not specifically you] who are coy about being violated and do little or nothing about it when it happens, or they wait and wait, or, they take it to the wrong place to vent, looking for sympathy. There's nothing enlightened about that."
I am stating my exasperation with ANY WOMAN who does not defend herself at the point of offense. Why do you wrap this around yourself like a hate-cloak? That's a bit self-centered, isn't it? Are you seriously just looking for someone to hate you??
I'm not trying to beat you in a philosophical argument. I just am.
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 21:38
"Women were treated like pieces of meat to be enjoyed by the men." This would be laughable if it weren't so - no, it is truly highly laughable. "Pieces of meat"? Out of what 1970s B-movie did you get that? Some biker flick? Where?
Hilarious! Keep 'em comin'!!
Love ya, mean it,
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 23:41
That's it M - we're finished. I've put up with you're insanity as long as I can stand. I've tried to help you and hide your sad condition, but this really takes the biscuit. Such open lunacy is too embarrassing. I'm afraid we'll have to go our separate ways...lol
You are dismissed....lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
Sat, 09/17/2011 - 02:28
You have done precisely ZERO to try to "help" me with anything, and I have neither need nor use for anything you have vomited on this forum. Since my first post here, when I very directly told you I had no intention of supporting you or your vicious line of shit, you have done nothing but belittle me, cuss at me, humiliate me, mock me, denigrate me. Help me?! If you can find a dick in your pants, go fuck yourself, ben.
This forum could be a place of trading ideas about sobriety, but you have made it a total travesty with your deliberate corruption of communication and ugly jeering. Your idolatry of this site's most repugnant posters is juvenile and revolting. Finished? You may be finished but I intend to continue to hound you with a mirror of truth. I was right: you just can't handle it, you never could.
What's your motive? To get laughs and slaps on the back for your clever witticisms about me? Did you ever post anything useful here? The answer is a resounding no! To you sobriety is a "club", or a game where you get to try to make the next poor son of a bitch drink and then you get points. What's the prize, ben? Personal gratification at causing someone untold misery? Yeah, man, that's hip, totally.
What's it been, five months since this forum has been online? And you think you're going to take over the entire sobriety world and shut down A.A. in the process? Such grandiose thinking from such a little mind. You know, I don't really have to tell you to go fuck yourself. You're already doing it.
Thu, 10/13/2011 - 05:35
Some of the more minor reasons I left AA were:
1. The phone calls at 4am (or earlier) from my crazy sponsor asking me why I was not awake, out of bed, and diligently studying the big book. Then saying that the reason I was still "sleeping in" past 4am was due to my "disease" and that if I didn't "work a better program" and get up at or before 4am to read the big book I would surely drink and die.
2. Having to listen to my sponsor's and other AA loonies' stories about molesting little kids, sometimes their own children. And then being told that it was because of their "disease" and therefore not their fault. Bullshit.
3. Having to attend 4-7 meetings each week. If, due to my "disease," I only managed to make it to 3 during a week I would receive up to a dozen phone calls from concerned "friends" making sure I hadn't "gone back out."
4. The isolation from family and friends who were not "in a program" and the constant pressure to try to recruit those who "need a program" (which in the backwards world of 12 step groups is everybody).
But the 2 biggest reason why I left AA were:
1. Having grown up being told in DARE and health classes, my mother's parrotting of pop. psychology advice from counselors, and of course the AA brainwashing (later), that those who drink too much have a disease called alcoholism and could not stop on thier own, I thouroughly believed that and never seriously questioned it. Then in my 20's I stopped drinking and could not shake the feeling that I had decided to stop. Not that some mysterious "higher power" did it for me, but that I made a choice to stop doing destructive things. Then I started reading the Orange Papers, Stanton Peele, Charles Bufe, and various other resources questioning the validity of the AA dogma and realized that drinking or using drugs is actually a choice. This really was an earth shaking revelation to me. Before I ever started drinking or smoking pot as a teenager I knew that once I started I would not be able to stop and therefore was an addict. The 12 step machine (AA dogma is permeated throughout the public schools and popular culture) taught me to be utterly helpless before I ever took that first sip of vodka at age 15. The self-fulfilling prophecy was firmly established and eventually came to pass. Once I realized that drinking, whether responsibly or excessively, or not drinking is actually 100% a choice, the sense of freedom was nearly overwhelming. From that point on I could not spend one more minute listening to or repeating the utter nonsense of the AA cult program.
2. My wife and I were trying to start a family. All the AA lifers were so excited that we were going to have kids. They were telling us how wonderful it would be to have "AA kids" and how great it would be to have our kids grow up "in the program." "Just think," they would say, "your kids will never go one day without a program!" The idea that our future children were already deemed in need of a program by the AA ass-hats terrified us more than I can put into words. We now have a beautiful baby girl who, hopefully, will never know the horrors of 12 step membership.
"Jesus Christ! If that's a big book he must be a fucking giant! Run! Save yourselves! Run!"
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 17:59
What would be more interesting is how you ended up in AA in the first place. I graduated a long time ago, and AA wasn't taught to us at all. My sponsor never called me; I had to call him, and yes, I am a woman that had a male sponsor that had no motives or designs. What I am reading on this site are things about PEOPLE, not the program. I also remembered that recovering people in anything are not the most healthy of folks. And not everyone is in AA to get well. Some people just want to meet people that don't drink but don't want to go to church. For others, someone wants them to be there. Some people go, get sober, learn some replacement coping skills and move on. My BIL did that, but speaks highly of the fellowship. I moved somewhere where I did not like the meetings, the mixture of alcohol and drug people (I DO believe they are separate) instead of singlenss of purpose, so I went to fewer meetings until I just stopped. Even AA will tell you that it isn't the ony way to get sober. And that's fine.
Persephone In Exile
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 18:48
Well, to paraphrase Willard Mitt Romney, the program "is people, my friend".
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 20:43
You are scary & you represent the AA controlled & narrow & empty mind. Regarding litigation & responsibility. If a waitress spills water on a customer, the restaurant is responsible, legally & can be sued. The restaurant hired her, she represents the restaurant. If a teacher curses out a class or student the school district is legally responsible & can & will be sued, the teacher was hired & retained by the school district & represents the school district. Controlling a 3 year old from smashing things up one's home, not allowing this behavior is not comparable to not allowing sexual predatory in a well established & wealthy "spiritual" support group. A child can be controlled by an adult, it is not a even playing field. No victim of abuse is responsible for the abuser's actions or behaviors. This is the 2nd abuse which occurs after the initial abuse, the abuser explains & blames the victim for the abuse! It is common knowledge that after a man physically abuse's a woman, he blames her by saying it is her fault he gets so angry, she makes him so angry that he just has to beat her. Blame the victim. AA is famous for blaming the victim. The AA program fails 97% of the time, but it is the 97 % who are according to AA the problem, they didn't work the steps right, they just didn't do things right! Do the math, it is simple, only 3% are successful @ the program, the problem is the program not the 97%. Would a medical procedure or drug still be in existence or used as a treatment if it failed 97% of the time? Would it be the patient's fault the procedure or drug didn't work, that 97%? Wilson began victimizing women from the beginning. The step, not to admit wrong doing or make amends if doing so will hurt someone. Translation, Wilson wasn't about to confess to Lois his infidelities either when drunk or sober. Lois was Wilson's meal ticket, prior to AA & just in case AA didn't work out & the books didn't sell, Wilson wasn't going to mess with not having Lois around to work & pay the bills. Was Wilson's adultery Lois's fault? What did Lois do to make Wilson have sex with Helen Wynn & many attractive & young, vulnerable & fragile female alcohol addicts? What did said female addicts do to make Wilson have to seduce & exploit & abuse them sexually when so, so, so vulnerable? Maybe the female addicts dressed in such a way that they were asking for it & what else could Wilson do but seduce them? Maybe Lois didn't dress right & what could Wilson do but commit adultery? If a female works @ night & gets off a bus & has to walk home & gets raped, what could she have done differently to avoid that rape? Should she have stolen a car to get home safely? Should she have yelled @ & confronted the rapist & told him to stop it? AA is supposed to be a support group, one should feel & be safe @ a support group. If AA can or will not govern or provide a safe environment for it's support groups then it is time to shut it down or spend some of the AA millions to provide security @ the meetings. Schools all over the country have taken actions to deal with & control the violence, to provide security & safety, so have playgrounds, recreation centers, etc. etc. These organizations & business's & both government & privately run, spend the money & take the time to provide security & safety for people. There isn't any reason that AA, can not hire security guards, armed to be @ each & every meeting, as a deterrent & as protection for it's member's. AA has the money & can afford to pay professional people to guard the "school teacher" in the corner. Additionally, no matter how much you deny it, no matter how much you twist the truth, double speak, no matter how much you lie, no matter how unreasonable or irrational you are, regardless of all those circumstance's, AA like every other business or organization is responsible & accountable for it's organization, meetings & members, legally & is subject to being held responsible & accountable in a courtroom & be sued. AA can & should be sued, just like any one else who runs their organization, business, property, etc. etc. negligently & irresponsibly. Bottom line & the truth, you can posture all you want that this isn't the truth, it will not matter. AA will eventually collapse due to law suits, the big book & other literature sales revenue will not be able to survive the law suits, both individual & class, once they begin. Lawsuits have begun to collapse the Catholic church in many nations, the same thing will happen to AA. And it all started with Wilson, he was an immoral man, not responsible or accountable for his reprehensible abusive actions & neither is his group AA. Marietta, you really, seriously, desperately need help, professional help & you seriously really need to stop blaming the victim & to stop being an abuser. Marietta, get some help, try to stop being a part of the problem. Good luck.
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 21:05
LOL, Welcome, Patti. Certainly verbose, personal and familiar for a "newcomer." Especially one looking back months for posts to respond to... Yawn
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 21:08
Patti, GREAT POST! OMG I am so happy to read your post. ignore Clara's BS remark to you. SHe is a total stepper. Do you know someone who has sued or will sue.
You are spot on.
Can we email directly. I want to tell you something. info@mysaferecovery or email@example.com.
I left AA last year when I was trying to make it safer and deal with all of this for 2 1/2 years.
Thanks again for this great great well written sane post!!!!!
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 21:12
Hope she takes your advice, Monica. This is hardly a new person, and I don't find it interesting that a person has to go back months to find someone to slam within the first two posts. Rather obvious.
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 21:19
She has no validity in these discussions, she is just a delusional stepper. Use your own judgement....
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:30
have no validity period. 6 bloody beer binge, she's not qualified to speak about either A.A or alcoholics. bludging, rorting, scamming, lying are different matters though. 6 beer binge lol.
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 23:45
PLease stop using the name...........on this blog, if I want to use that name I would Massive is my handle. Im reporting you to ORange. Monica is not my name. My name for this blog is massive.
Sat, 04/28/2012 - 17:40
How do you think I like being called Marietta? How do you think Clara likes being called Clarietta? I think if you just ignore it it won\'t bug you so much.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 22:08
I'm aware that AA was sued around 2007 by the family & survivor's of a suicide victim. Said victim was schizophrenic & on medicine prescribed by a physician. If I recall correctly victim was a male, lonely, vulnerable & socially inept due to his mental illness. He began attending AA meetings in N.Y. city & finally belonged to something & had social interaction which his life lacked due to his mental illness. AA member's were his only "friends" & social contacts. Said AA members coerced this vulnerable & ill man to stop taking his medicine & he complied with their non qualified medical advise, due to not taking the medicine, he killed himself. Through out his life he had self medicated with alcohol & street drugs, but that had stopped once he was treated by a qualified physician & on medicine. His survivors, were of course outraged @ what had occurred to him @ AA meetings, they sued, AA quietly & quickly settled for 2.7 million. I really regret I did not print the article pertaining to this lawsuit when it was available on the internet the winter of 2009/2010. It is no longer on the web, I would think due to the settlement, the agreement included a verbal & written gag on the incident. I do recall that @ first AA members in the group defended AA, however in a lawsuit, anything that gets thrown to the wall & sticks becomes part of the suit. Said AA member's were included in the lawsuit & were going to be personally sued for their liability. Basically, if you have own or have any wealth you are fair game in a suit. Said AA member's quickly changed their stories when they were being sued right along with AA & threw AA under the bus. I believe the recourse to take regarding the sexual abuse & exploitation that occurs in AA & that AA will not be accountable for or provide solutions or protection & is therefore grossly negligent is lawsuits. I can only surmise the first step is to find class action attorneys who want the cases, AA has deep pockets & are therefore worth class action attorneys time & attention. A class action attorney will know how to gather the victims, all said attorneys need is one victim to get the ball rolling. I am sure there are numerous & multiple AA members who have contacted the big dogs @ AA & asked for help regarding the sexual abuse & that AA pleaded not responsible. It would start with documentation of those complaints, which of course would be in writing & retained by the people who reached out to AA for help with the abuse & were ignored, the problem neglected. Once an organization is advised of misconduct, inappropriate, criminal, abusive, etc., etc., etc., behavior & actions within their organization & they do not take the appropriate measures to protect it's members, they are liable. I do know AA tries to cover it's ass, by writing that sexual abuse is not allowed, that member's are not to tell other members to not take their medicine, but it's not enough. Ultimately where AA is responsible is for participating in the court & parole & probation mandated & forced attendance of non voluntary members. AA should responsibly refuse that any member is convicted & forced to attend, however this has been AA's bread & butter for years & without it by now the group would be as small as the prior Oxford Group is now. Will let you know any info pertaining to this.
Sat, 04/28/2012 - 17:08
OMG Patti---what a story. This is why I print all the stories when I see them but WOW...I\'m blown away.
Hmmm okay...Im going to post this on my two websites www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com and www.leavingaa.com
I will credit you for writing the story.
Sat, 04/28/2012 - 17:33
You\'re going to post this on your websites without verifying it first?
Movie theater: \"FIRE!\"
Sat, 04/28/2012 - 18:16
It baffles my mind to know that AA just doesn\'t want to take any action.
Say for instance that I didn\'t think that AA was responsible or that I didn\'t think AA should be held accountable (I\'m not, just supposing), I still think that morally and ethically they would WANT to help out in any way that they could. Apparently there is a bunch of money \"in the bank\" that can\'t otherwise be touched. Use some of that to implement measures that could possibly help and most certainly wouldn\'t hurt.
For example, even if I might wasn’t held personally responsible if an abusive situation was occurring in my home (imagine a variety of circumstances), I would certainly do everything I could to make sure it stopped happening. I have a conscience, I care. Most people would. Why doesn\'t AA?
Why can’t they start by writing some literature and having it read in the preamble. How much does it cost and how hard is it? Massive has said that in her area groups were opposed to this because potential members might get scared. So what? I\'d rather be a little scared, especially if I should be, than abused in some way. It’s facing reality, this isn’t a cookie bake-off for Kindergartners. These are adults, many with serious mental handicaps.
That’s the sickest part. They just don’t care! I can understand not wanting to be responsible. Facing this issue is not easy but it is necessary.
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Sat, 04/28/2012 - 18:46
Patti, I am 90% certain that a class action lawsuit against AA would fail (at least in federal court). Especially in light of Walmart v. Dukes, it is extremely unlikely that a judge would certify the class. The facts of each instance of abuse would simply not have enough in common for class-wide adjudication.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Sat, 04/28/2012 - 18:58
would be when an employer etc is sued after someone sentenced to AA by them (such as EAP routinely does) after the employer has been VERIFIABLY warned (certified letters to CEOs and Medical Dept managers) of the dangers in AA
We had a huge database (still archived) over at Stinkin Thinkin. If a sentencee were to be assaulted, raped, murdered, etc, while a sentencing company was verifiably aware of these risks and chose to ignore, I think it would be a very strong suit.
Sat, 04/28/2012 - 19:01
Yes, I agree. I also wonder if a lawsuit against an employer would succeed based on a Title VII claim of religious discrimination.
Sat, 04/28/2012 - 19:13
I was nearly fired for failing to contact my EAP manager enough. When it was all said and done, this same manager refused to accept certified mail from me, they would not provide me with MY medical records (they actually made such small and blurry copies the small portion I did recieve was illegible) and this managers supervisor was fired.